I want to look into recording some future live gigs that my band does, and I'd like to record them with multiple cameras so we an switch between shots, different angles etc.

We use a Zoom Livetrack L-12 mixer which can record 12 separate tracks of separate audio simultaneously, either to to an SD card or DAW.

I was wondering what would be an easy and inexpensive way to do this?

Presumably we'd just need 4 or 5 cameras set up on different parts of the stage/venue for filming different angles, then we can use video editing software, sync all the video tracks together, mute their audio, then sync them with the audio from the Zoom Livetrack? Then we can chop and change between different camera angles for the final version of the video.

I have a Zoom Q4N Handy Video recorder, though I dislike the fact that it's fisheye but it still records good quality video in very high resolution.

What would be an inexpensive way to record the other video angles? How about 4 really high definition webcams connected to a laptop? Or use smartphones with very high definition video recording capabilities (I say 'inexpensive' because most of us in the band already have these, so no extra cost to buy more)?

How would we make sure the lighting is good enough to get good quality video? And how much space in (in gigabytes) would it take to record a full show (let's say 2 - 3 hours long)? What about tripods etc, and how to position the cameras without them being too noticeable in the video?

Am I think along the right lines here in terms of how to do this, or do you have any other ideas for me? Thanks.

This is correct at a high level, but I think in practice you're going to find the syncing is much more complicated than it sounds.

Basically if you're willing to spend a lot of time learning how cameras/framerates work, and then a lot of time editing/syncing, then you can do this without spending a lot of money on equipment. But it's probably going to take you significant amounts of time to get something that looks borderline acceptable. (And if you're dreaming about "pro" looking footage, just understand those videos usually involve 50k-100k worth of equipment, if not more).

Pros and cons to both approaches. In general, working with 5 of the same camera is going to be a lot easier to work with in terms of ingesting, matching footage between cameras (this is something you probably aren't thinking of right now, but cutting between 2 different cameras that haven't had their footage matched looks really jarring, and not usually in a good way), and editing.

That said, the individual quality (and low light capabilities) of a modern iPhone camera might trump that time requirement, and if you already own them, they will be cheaper.

Not to discourage you but there are people whose entire careers consist of making sure the lighting is good enough for video capture, so unfortunately it's not something someone can just answer on a forum.

In order to answer this you'll need to understand:

1. How cameras interpret light, generally
2. The individual light sensitivities for each combination of camera, lens, and image setting that you're using
3. How to measure light
4. How to place lights so they look good

Entirely depends on the recording format you end up using. 2-3 hours can be as little as a few GB on a compressed format vs. Terabytes of data for Raw footage. The more quality you want, the more space you need, as a general rule.

Another one of those things that people spend entire careers learning how to do, unfortunately.

I think you have the right general idea but you are underestimating how much knowledge and equipment you will need to pull this off.

Depending on how often you want to do this I'd look into hiring someone, maybe you can find kids from a local film school who are willing to work for free/reduced rates in order to get some practical experience. That could wind up being cheaper in terms of money and time vs. trying to do it yourself.

I started on this same journey 3 years ago. I bought four used Canon Vixia HD cameras that cost a total of about $600 for the group of four.

Since then, through a combination of ambition and dissatisfaction, I now own six $1000+ (each) cameras, five tripods, four lights, multiple additional portable recorders, and I am now a half-inch shorter because of the life that has been drained out of me as I took up the challenge of learning a NLE after knowing my way around inside of DAWs.

You'll love the journey, but if you're results-focused, I warn you that you'll cease to be a musician if you get your head into the zone of video production manager. You'll also never watch TV the same way again.

The person that advised you to find a team of film school students, or equivalent willing hands who already have equipment is very good advice.

Quick and dirty - use what cameras you have, and look for audio sync points to line up the video. It's not professional, but it can be fun. You may find you'll have to nudge video back and forth to align with the audio, but for beginners it won't be perfect - but who cares?

Agree with everything above.

Go quick and dirty and make it a feature or get someone else to do the heavy lifting (and spending).

If you do want to do more editing then it's very likely you'll end up with da Vinci Resolve (free) at some point. Brilliant software which syncs video files automatically but will cost a lot in coffee while you're learning how.

iPad - Lumafusion is worth exploring.

Otherwise your logic is good. Camera audio can be mixed in to taste.

When you say it 'syncs files automatically', do you mean audio with video or multiple videos with each other etc? How does it do that?

Do you have any tips on syncing multiple videos to each other, and audio to the videos? I believe you can match clicks at the start of a song, for example, as a way to match the audio and video. Or is there a way to stop and start multiple cameras AND the separate audio recording at the same time, by some sort of digital syncing, so that all the footage is automatically in sync when it's opened in a video editing program?

Re matching footage, does each video need to be the same resolution and framerate, or does this not matter? And what is a good resolution and framerate to record at? Is 1080p, 30fps good enough or do things need to be higher these days?

You're trying to do an awful lot, without much experience/knowledge, over the many threads you've raised here recently. You need to experiment, make mistakes, and learn.

For no money, just put up whatever cameras you have - phones, webcams, Go Pros, DSLRs, etc. Make sure you also have a decent audio feed that you record. Make sure you record a clap or similar impulse sync marker at the beginning.

Again, for no money, use daVinci Resolve as your video editor. It'll take you ages to start with, but there are plenty of YouTube videos that will guide you. Search, unsurprisingly, for "daVinci Resolve multi cam" and work through them. Learn from the results which cameras you prefer, and also discover the inconsistencies you'll find between devices and lighting issues.

You may be happy with the results you get for no money and a bit of learning. Or you'll decide to spend money on better kit, that'll likely still produce disappointing results, or you'll spend money on getting a pro crew in, which will produce a great result.

As with everything, of course, no video will be better than the perfomance it's documenting. If the band's shoddy, so will the video be.

Ahhh, and so it begins!

I use DaVinci Resolve Studio (it's the paid version), so I'll answer in that context. Before you get nervous, it's primarily noise reduction and a few other features that are in the paid version, but nothing to stop you from doing great work in the free version.

DaVinci can sync video by the videos' audio track. You literally drag the audio/videos into the timeline, select them, and use the 'sync by audio' function. It's magical, and it works very well. Also, you drag in audio-only WAV files (after having mixed it in your DAW and cut into individual songs) and also 'sync by audio' to the video.

Matching framerates is essential for the video, but resolution matching is not essential. Also, do all your audio at 48k because all the cameras are at 48k. If you choose not to, or cannot match things during initial capture, it can be overcome with work, sweat, pain, and time.

Starting and stopping during event capture saves SD card space and media pool space, but the hassle of doing that during the session is a real vibe killer. I prefer to just let the cameras and the audio recording run. It's much easier to sync and select things during post-production. The non-trivial downside is the consumption of disk space in the media pool...especially if you shoot at 4k. You'll start appreciating the low cost per TB of HDD's as compared to SSD's.

Shooting at 1080p 30fps (HD) is absolutely fine, if you're careful with framing the camera's shot perspective. If you'll be delivering in HD also, there isn't any margin to re-frame or zoom in without losing resolution. If you shoot at 4k (UHD), you can use wider shots and then crop (transform) or simulate camera movement/zoom (dynamic zoom) for an HD final delivery without sacrificing resolution.

I am very glad I got into shooting video. My audio-only work is down to voice-over, and some educational stuff. Everyone else wants audio/video.

Gary gave some good advice above, but to elaborate:

The biggest tip is to keep everything standardized/equal. Have all cameras shooting at identical framerates to minimize drifting over the course of the performance. At the start of each take use a clapper in view of all the cameras to give you a visual and audio reference for syncing that you can then line up in your NLE.

If you're not using any kind of syncing technology (see below), try to keep your takes shorter if you can (you're less likely to have drift issues with ten 6 minute clips vs one 60 minute clip).

There are ways to achieve this, from low cost to $$$. Give this video a watch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYRWXLKJwWk

The less that matches, the more of a headache it's going to be for you.

As far as resolution goes, 1080p is fine. Framerate is more about visual preference. 24, 30, and 60fps all have different motion qualities to them.

If you share a video that you like and are trying to emulate we can probably help you reverse engineer the requirements.

I use Final Cut ProX and it can auto synch multiple cameras with several methods. The standard method is to use the sound of each camera just for synch, so we try to do each "scene" by rolling all cameras and sound recording and have someone visibly clap their hands loudly and announce the take - the equivalent of a film clapper. Then the final sound can be synched visually with the waveform views and then the camera sounds muted. Works fine for simple productions, but FCP does cost money and Mac only.

I'm afraid just syncing starts times doesn't help because each recording device has a subtly different idea of how fast a clock goes so while each will record for say three hours of your show the resulting clips when loaded in a video editor or a daw will not be the same length.

In order for everything to automagically happen each camera needs a feed called a Genlock which syncs its internal clock to the every other bit of equipment and a feed called time code which is metadata which a editor can read to line up all the clips in post. The equivalent for audio is called word clock.

None of this can be described as cheap.

The absolute cheapest way to achieve it would be each video position composed of a Blackmagic design Micro Cinema Camera with a Timecode Systems ultrasync one then an audio recorder that can take both word clock and timecode such as a Sound Devices mix pre ii and a TimeCode Systems Pulse.

Even this might not be an option as while I can find the pulse in the channel it no longer appears on TimeCode Systems website so I fear the Atomos, who bought timecode systems, may have discontinued it with no replacement.

Even then the timecode would have to go in to the camera's audio input as it doesn't have dedicated timecode input. Resolve can recover timecode from audio not all NLEs can.

Many thanks for your detailed reply, there's a lot of good info there. As for some videos I like, to give you an idea of the sort of multiple camera type of video I'm aiming for, here you go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_C8NXwLBNog

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brUD2jMndaU

For an affordable alternative to Da Vinci Resolve (I know, it’s free….but has initial steep learning curve), Final Cut etc….look up YouTube tutorials on Cyberlink Power Director, and in particular the “Sync by Audio” feature…

Can we just use the drum clicks done by the drummer to count the song in, instead of claps, to sync the audio and the video (or get software to do it automatically)? I don't think it'd be cool having people onstage at a live gig clapping a song in! In theory, auto syncing in software should be able to line up the drum clicks on the video audio with the audio recorded via the mixer by detecting the sound waves in the audio files and lining them up. Once this is done, the video audio can then be muted and the better quality version from the mixer will be perfectly in sync.

A fillmmaker firend has druymmed it into me: The most important things are lighting and framing if you want it to look good. Takes experience to knwo how to do those things. I just do sound myself.

Assuming every video camera you’ll be using is picking up those quiet stick hits …then yes, you should be able to line up the beginning of the song (and even more so if you cut the vision feed and just concentrate on lining up the audio waveforms alone !) But how will you account for the drift of the timing of the cameras against each other as the song/concert progresses? Ideally you’d want the song to end with the same stick hits, so you can line up the end also…to guarantee there’s no drift over the song’s duration ! And no band or drummer is going to give you that….unless it’s a filmed recording session rather than a concert ? In practice the drift shouldn’t (theoretically) be significant over a 3-5 minute song, but who can say definitively?

Look up ‘Power Director’ :Sync By Audio…no stick hits even necessary !

A couple things to note:

The first one appears to be filmed at a mix of framerates and unfortunately the "main" camera in the audience seems slightly out of sync with the audio. Wouldn't surprise me if they synced the audio to the drummer cam and then just lined the other clips up to the start without checking for drift.

If you want to have camera angles like the audience cam (which is moving, not on tripod) make sure it has good image stabilization and a good zoom. I think they're probably using a digital camcorder of some kind based on the zooms and relative steadiness. This will be hard to pull off with an iPhone.

There is one other reason to film at a certain framerate I forgot to mention: flicker based on the refresh rate of lighting (which the first video shows on certain cameras). You'll have to test this out to see if it's an issue with whatever lights you use.

One thing you'll notice both videos have is a fair amount of light (imo the first one arguably doesn't have enough, and that's with a bunch of stage lights, so consider that lighting is going to be a part of your budget if it isn't provided by the venue.)

The second video has more done in the way of post-production, both editing and color, but those are things you can pick up down the line. Focus on the capture for now.

If by drum clicks you mean the drummer hitting his sticks together to count in, that might work as long as it's loud enough for all the cameras to pick it up. The reason the clap is suggested is because it gives an easy visual to see when you're scrubbing through footage and an easily defined transient spike in the waveform to line everything up. Resolve uses the audio to line up the waveforms so that's the important part, the clap is mostly for visual reference. You can do a test to see if the click is enough relatively easily, though.

Yep. But unfortunately ime "theory" and "perfectly" so rarely come together until you've done these things a bunch of times and run out of mistakes to make.

This made me chuckle, and reminded me of a quote by Niels Bohr, Nobel Prize winner, famous for the planetary/quantum theory of atomic structure:

“An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field.”

Obviously, if you want a professional result, either hire some professionals or plan a long and steep learning curve and major investments.

However, if all you want to do is put some live gigs on YouTube or Facebook, and you don't care about them being totally professional, it isn't _that_ difficult. In fact, with some practice the results are surprisingly good.

You can even use some iPhones as cameras, preferably in 4K. The recent iPhones have amazing cameras.

You may have some issues getting things in sync in post, in my experience videos from mobile phones should be sent through Handbrake to make convert from a variable frame rate to a fixed frame rate, but that doesn't always have to be the case.

For editing get either FinalCut or DaVinci, which will also help syncing cameras and audio back together quite easily. Make sure you always record sound on every camera, syncing is much easier that way.

No, the result will not look like it has been shot on pro equipment and edited by a professional, but most of your audience will probably not know the difference.

Just my take.

send your audio mix to this, and set video transitions to autoswitch for 4 cameras
Sling Studio in a backpack

Don't forget, just like in studio recording and live audio, the fact that sound doesn't travel as fast as light or current will have an effect.

If you have, for instance, an audience cam at the back of the room recording room sound with a local mic, let's say 70' away, then the video and audio, even though they were recorded in perfect sync, will be 70-ish m/s apart because in real life the light/sound energy arrived at the camera out of sync.

70m/s is not a lot in the great scheme of things but it's not nothing and might be enough to break the magic.

It could, of course, be enhanced to give the effect of distance but that would be very meta.

Good lighting is essential. On the cheap, you need to either pick a venue that has good lighting to begin with or shoot an outdoor gig.

The thing I think you are going to run into is editing video for even a few cameras can result in a substantial time commitment, and it is taxing on a computer.

One of the guys here has two GH5s with Atmos Ninja Vs for his concerts. One is used for the wide shots and the other is used for the close up shots. The footage is recorded on the Ninjas because they can record in Prores that is much easier for his computer to edit than the compressed file formats that most cameras record internally.

I'd say two cameras are a good starting point, but the more camera angles you add, the more editing later.

Thanks for the replies. Another thing I was wondering - if it's better to stop and start the video cameras before/after each song rather than recording 1 long video of the whole gig, how would be do that during a performance? Can the stop and start of multiple cameras be controlled by a footswitch (maybe bluetooth), thus stopping and starting them all at the same time? Otherwise it would be a nightmare and ruin the flow of the gig I one of the band members has to go over to the cameras and stop and start each one manually.

If you start and stop, then you have more individual files to sync up in editing. If you let the camera run, then you shouldn't miss anything unless your recording media fills up or power source dies.

However, one other thing worth mentioning is most consumer devices are going to drift from other another over the time of a typical 1 hour concert. Two GH5 cameras for example may have more similar drift rates than if you were to mix say a panasonic camera and a sony camera.

If you mix different models/makes of cameras, the color rendition may be different enough that more time will be required in editing to try to make the footage look similar in terms of color rendition and white balance.

The cameras are also going to drift from your Zoom livetrack, too.

Longer files, especially 4k video, are going to be bigger and more for your computer to handle. So there is that consideration.

Blackmagic Design makes Davinci Resolve. They have a streaming device that will automatically sync their cameras when plugged into it, and it will record a file of each camera that is supposed to be in sync and ready for edit in Resolve.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...tml?ap=y&smp=y

But if you add up the cost of their cameras, some lenses, and their ATEM, that gets into some money.

Other cameras will work with their ATEM, but can't be controlled over their ATEM network like their own cameras.

Rental could be an option, but also costs $.

What kind of computer specs do you have available to work with?

Since you already have the livetrack and the Q4n, try shooting one song and editing your tracks with one video file just to give yourself a feel for what you have now. If you can borrow a second camera or use a phone as another video source, you can try mixing that in as well just to assess how you get along in Resolve [try the free version] on whatever computer setup you have now.

I use Final Cut Pro which syncs multiple cameras with audio (separate or the camera audio) within the app. There is also dedicated syncing software like PluralEyes. The one thing you must do is every camera must also record audio. I don't know how the software works but in both cases I believe it compares waveforms to each other and line them up.

One thing you will have to do is compromise the camera positions if it's a live show with an audience. Oftentimes, the best place for the camera(s) is where the audience is. I wouldn't use GoPro-type cameras unless you need a special angle because they usually have a fixed extreme wide angle lens which captures a lot in focus but also means they have to be extremely close to the subject.

You'll need some cabling, but you can use HDMI to SDI converters and back; but a Black Magic ATEM Mini Pro ISO (about $800) will record four separate video streams and two audio streams (in addition to the audio streams embedded on the camera feed). Then it will put everything into a Davinci Resolve session file so you can adjust your transitions later if need be. Probably the cheapest and easiest way to record up to four camera feeds that are all synced together.

And as long as you have a clean HDMI or SDI output from your camera, you don't even need to worry about the recording time limit.

What is the difference between the Black Magic ATEM Mini, the ATEM Mini Pro and the ATEM Mini Pro ISO versions? Are the Pro or Pro ISO versions worth the extra cost for a newbie getting started at this sort of video production?

Ok, how does it record the audio - from the L and R outputs of the mixer? I don't see how that would work, as those will be connected to the FOH PA speakers. But I don't need it to record audio, as I'm planning on using the Zoom L-12 to record each audio track, as it can record up to 12 tracks simultaneously. Would we need to mix the audio in a DAW (Cubase for me) first into a stereo track, before importing it into Davinci Resolve? Otherwise we'll have all the audio on separate tracks for each instrument within Davinci, thus adding to the work.

Ok, so can Davinci Resolve just transition between any video track easily, or do you need to cut the parts out from all the other video tracks when switching cameras?

There's a function in most/all NLE's called Multi-Cam. This allows the individual cameras to playback concurrently, and you pick the camera view that you want for each moment. That's effectively doing in software what you'd accomplish with a physical video switcher during the event...except now you have the precision of going back to check/change what you want.

Without Multi-Cam, you can individually cut and hide/segment the unwanted video so that only the wanted camera view shows in the final. In PowerDirector and DaVinci Resolve (the two NLE's that I've used to any extent) the top-most lane/track of video has priority over the others. So when I wan't using Multi-Cam, I would put the center camera view on the bottom-most track, and use it as the default view when the other camera angles weren't what I wanted in the final result.

Also, I've had consumer grade Canon Vixia, pro-grade Sony A7 II, Blackmagic Pocket Cinema 4k, and Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ1000, and DMC-FZ2500 in various combinations in rather long-form classical concerts, and never ran into notable drift/synch issues. The audio was always separately recorded.

I'm using a Windows 10 laptop with an i7 processor, 16 GB of RAM and both an SSD and HDD drive. It's a pretty powerful and fast machine, however I am fully aware that video editing takes up a lot of processing power as well as hard disk space!