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Good song, Not so good mix
Old 17th June 2006 | Show parent
  #31
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abit's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg B
Are you talking about how the ride comes in right after the cymbal?
yep, ride after the crash.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg B
Maybe I'll make the guitars more even and just turn the clean up until it's heard. I do like it off to the side.
Try that:
distorted hard left and right using short(about 22msc)delay or something.
This is what they here for.
And then clean left and right not hard but leaving space for vocal,
as U said - "till it's heard.
Clean gonna keep it on the move, and distorted will do what it suppose to.
Something in this direction. To balance things out.

It doesn't feel comfortable 2me, when tires on the driver side bigger,
then passenger side.

Try.
We trying things here.
Old 17th June 2006 | Show parent
  #32
Quote:
Originally Posted by abit
yep, ride after the crash.
The ride comes in right after the crash because the ride hand is busy hitting the crash cymbal on the first beat. I guess I could add an extra ride hit at the same time the crash hits, but it's never bothered me before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by abit
Try that:
distorted hard left and right using short(about 22msc)delay or something.
This is what they here for.
And then clean left and right not hard but leaving space for vocal,
as U said - "till it's heard.
Clean gonna keep it on the move, and distorted will do what it suppose to.
Something in this direction. To balance things out.

It doesn't feel comfortable 2me, when tires on the driver side bigger,
then passenger side.
Yeah, I think I need to balance the distorted guitars. I was trying to compromise because the lead guitar player originally wanted the right side totally empty for his clean part with distortion only on the left side. I told him that would be really unbalanced so we doubled the distortion part and made it a little quieter on the left side.
Old 17th June 2006 | Show parent
  #33
Lives for gear
 
abit's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg B
The ride comes in right after the crash because the ride hand is busy hitting the crash cymbal on the first beat.
1st beat may not be a problem. But it taking another several 16th to catch up. He is just simply late.
Old 18th June 2006 | Show parent
  #34
Remix #2

Here's another remix:

http://www.rackrecording.com/projects/Over_Me3.mp3

Changes made:

vocals louder
bass guitar quieter, also cut low frequencies in bass
worked with snare
louder drums, used UAD Fairchild on drum bus
added/changed reverb on drum bus
replaced kick drum and eq'd with pultec pro
turned up distortion on right side to even it out

I think it's getting closer....
Old 18th June 2006 | Show parent
  #35
Gear Addict
 
rlnyc's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
quite a bit better... still has that bass drone low end, but maybe that isn't going to go away! it's a big improvement in all other areas.


regards,
rlnyc
Old 19th June 2006 | Show parent
  #36
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GYMusic's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
There are remnants of the bass that are ending up in stereo, which makes me think your bass problem exists because it is being sent to either a stereo effects processor or your effects buss. You might check that. Try it with no processing... mix it like you did originally and let's hear it again.

We should be charging by the hour.
Old 19th June 2006 | Show parent
  #37
Quote:
Originally Posted by GYMusic
There are remnants of the bass that are ending up in stereo, which makes me think your bass problem exists because it is being sent to either a stereo effects processor or your effects buss. You might check that. Try it with no processing... mix it like you did originally and let's hear it again.
I've got just a tiny bit of reverb on the entire mix, which is the bass you're hearing in stereo. Is it bad to use reverb on the master bus? I thought it might help make everything sound like it's in the same space, but maybe that's part of the bass problem. I didn't have it on my original mix, but I added it the last two mixes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GYMusic
We should be charging by the hour.
That's why I use Gearslutz, cause it's the best free help you can get
But I owe any of you guys lunch if you're ever in Portland
Old 19th June 2006 | Show parent
  #38
Lives for gear
 
abit's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Greg I'm gonna curse U now.

Look,
U emotionally attached to the track,
and not able to look at it with the cold mind.

U in a hurry to mix.
If U have to go to studio and pay $250 an hour U wouldn't rush I think.
But U have your puter and plugz and U mixing and trying to improve things.
It is sort of getting better especially those loud places.
But now it's more and more clear that it is not gonna work the way it suppose to. It goes nowhere. Why?

GY said to U a week ago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GYMusic
Don't do like so many others do, by putting the cart in front of the horse. Fix the performance before attempting a mix or you'll never get it right.
A 100% true.
Read it again.

If U listen to GY's "I Can't Wait" it's obviously that drums is not very powerful,
and they might not need to be in a given situation, but everything just so together there.
It's up to U, if U like this type of music or not, but it's pro track.Uknow?!

It doesn't matter how powerful U'll mix your drums,
It's impossible to feel comfortable to listen to this type of "groove" anyway.
Typical semipro college kids stuff who are so much in love with themselves.
If U playing just a kid game - fine, no problem.
If U wonna work pro - think pro.

I mention to U about the ride - U didn't fix it, coz U think it's fine.
This is indication of how U think.
And U think like a schmuck.

Good song man - go a head and bury it.

Stop mixing and work on performance -
this would be my plug-In, compression and EQ advise at the moment.


".......Wake Me Up.... When September Ends....."
Happy Father's Day!
Old 19th June 2006 | Show parent
  #39
To abit

I'm certainly not in a hurry. This is the second time we recorded this entire song. The first one took 3 months and this one took 5 months to track. Every part of the song has been rehearsed about a thousand times. The drums were recorded to a click track. We did takes until we were satisfied that we couldn't get it any better.

I don't think the drums get behind the guitars because they were recorded first. The guitars actually get ahead of the drums in some parts. The guitar players have a tendency to speed up a little and get ahead of the drums. Even though each player did at least 10-20 takes, it's still not perfect, because the performers are not perfect. But it's played as good as the band can play it.

I always planned on editing the drums and guitar parts so that they match up. I can do that just as easily after the instruments sound good as I can now. I certainly will edit the drum intro and the other parts you mentioned before the song is sent to radio. I have made a note of all the errors you heard, and I will do my best to fix EVERYTHING, aside from re-recording it.

Right now I'm just trying to get the balance right. I'm looking for advice on the MIX.

As for the song, every cymbal hit, every chord, every note, has been carefully planned. If people don't like the song, it's great to hear suggestions of how to improve it, but the band makes those decisions in the end.

The reason I titled my post "Good song, not so good mix" is because we're happy with the song and arrangement. I just want to make the mix sound as good as possible.

None of these mixes were intended to be the FINAL MIX, I'm just looking for direction, because it helps me learn to mix better.

I really appreciate everyone's input because I'm gradually learning how to get the sounds I want. Just in the last few days I've become more familiar with some plugins and I've become aware of some monitoring issues I seem to be having. The knowledge you folks have given me is invaluable. There are 12 other songs that will be on the same album, and half of them are probably better than this song. So what I'm learning while mixing this song will help all the others, and all the other bands I record.

The final mix probably won't be done for another month, but I'd like to keep posting my progress here once in awhile to hear people's thoughts. If you'd like to help me out, I'd LOVE it. But I understand if people get fed up with this "typical semi-pro college kid stuff"
Old 19th June 2006 | Show parent
  #40
Lives for gear
 
GYMusic's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Greg B.

No disrespect from here. You're getting 20 different opinions and all 20 could be correct. And, all 20 could be wrong. You will always find someone who doesn't like it.

The best thing you can learn is to mix it and be done with it. I'm sure you've probably heard the term "you can't polish a turd". Well, your song is NOT a turd, but you could polish it so much that it becomes one. The baby's all grown up now! Let it go!
Old 19th June 2006 | Show parent
  #41
Quote:
Originally Posted by GYMusic
Good song. Don't do like so many others do, by putting the cart in front of the horse. Fix the performance before attempting a mix or you'll never get it right. Instruments are fighting each other for tempo a bit. Drums need to be redone. Too loose in the beginning. No dynamics where there needs to be, especially the cymbals.
Hate to take more of your time without payin' ya for it, but I'm interested if you have any quick suggestions for giving the drums "dynamics where there needs to be". We've always felt that the drum part was appropriate to the tune.

Can the changes be made in editing or do you think it must be re-played?
Old 19th June 2006 | Show parent
  #42
Quote:
Originally Posted by GYMusic
Greg B.

No disrespect from here. You're getting 20 different opinions and all 20 could be correct. And, all 20 could be wrong. You will always find someone who doesn't like it.

The best thing you can learn is to mix it and be done with it. I'm sure you've probably heard the term "you can't polish a turd". Well, your song is NOT a turd, but you could polish it so much that it becomes one. The baby's all grown up now! Let it go!
You're right, remixes can often be worse than the originals. But I don't think I've reached the level of professionalism where my first gut instinct is always the best. I have to re-think things and work on them for awhile to get good results. So far I've never been able to get THAT SOUND I'm going for. But every recording I've done has been a little better than the last. A couple have gotten radio play at big stations, but certainly no platinum records yet...
Old 19th June 2006 | Show parent
  #43
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norman_nomad's Avatar
 
5 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Personally I think you've come leaps and bounds from your orignal mix... the last mix you posted has a lot more clarity and some of the bass issues have been resolved (not stoked about the bass guitar tone... but whatever).

It's getting closer for sure.

Some things I'm still hearing:

1. May want to put a desser on the vocalist... not anything drastic but some of the "esses" come jumping out of the speaker.

2. Distortion guitars still sound a little dark. Maybe a little 3k or 4k boost would give them a bit more bite.

Some things to try...

Good work so far.
Old 19th June 2006 | Show parent
  #44
Mix #4

http://www.rackrecording.com/projects/Over_Me4.mp3


Ok, I still havn't buckled down and fixed the timing issues BUT I WILL.

But I think I might have fixed most of the other issues you've all mentioned:

I took off the reverb on the 2Bus. The bass guitar is now dry.

I turned up the DI Bass more and used the modeled bass less, which makes the bass guitar sound a bit more present with less low bass.

I followed Normans advice almost exactly on the drum bus, using the plate reverb and Pultec Pro.

I boosted 4k on the guitar bus to brighten up the guitars

I turned up the de-esser more on vocals

I think this is the last mix I'll do of this song for awhile, until I have a chance to fix the performance a little. I'd still love to hear people's thoughts on this last mix. I'll post the final mix when it's done in a few weeks.
Old 20th June 2006 | Show parent
  #45
Gear Addict
 
rlnyc's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
interesting. glad you are going to put it to bed. just for me, the last one seemed better - smoother and more artistic. this one sounds a little clinical. when you try and fix every little thing you lose sight of the bigger picture. go look at some picasso - he never finished a picture - there's always a corner half done. certainly you have hit the point of diminishing returns. but from the very first mix, it have gotten way better. nice experiment.

till next time,
rlnyc
Old 23rd June 2006 | Show parent
  #46
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Cool, liking the track man.

Its a good song played pretty well which counts for 90% of the sound.
The gating on the snare is bugging me now and although the bass was a bit OTT I think its missing some weight and drive now.

IMHO the guitar balances you had were better in the first mix. Vocals are great, could maybe be ridden or compressed a little more, just a bit "spittier" u know?

I love the instrumental end, really rocks out, just hearing some compression artefacts, maybe you could push your room mic (?) and pull the cymbals a bit at the end.

Just a couple of thoughts... feel free to ignore. Great song though, post more.
Old 26th June 2006 | Show parent
  #47
A little progress

I re-created the drum intro by moving around drum hits until it was in perfect time and then looped it. I also put a low-fi effect on the drum intro.

http://www.rackrecording.com/projects/Over_Me5.mp3

I tweaked the overall mix a little too.
Old 27th June 2006 | Show parent
  #48
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkRB
Cool, liking the track man.

Its a good song played pretty well which counts for 90% of the sound.
The gating on the snare is bugging me now and although the bass was a bit OTT I think its missing some weight and drive now.

IMHO the guitar balances you had were better in the first mix. Vocals are great, could maybe be ridden or compressed a little more, just a bit "spittier" u know?

I love the instrumental end, really rocks out, just hearing some compression artefacts, maybe you could push your room mic (?) and pull the cymbals a bit at the end.

Just a couple of thoughts... feel free to ignore. Great song though, post more.
Thanks for your comments. Do you think mix number 5 is an improvement?
Old 27th June 2006 | Show parent
  #49
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David-Morpheus's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
It's getting better for sure IMHO the kick sound is still too clicky for this type of music and overall the drums lack punch. Set up parallel compression for the drums. leave the first bus dry with no plugs and on the second insert something like the colortone pro or analog channel and crank it up. insert a 1176 and crush the drums hard. blend thoose two together to taste. I usually have the compressed track about -10db from the other. You could swap the balance of the 2 tracks in the intro to have a different taste of the drums in the beginning.

If you have UAD plugs try the new neve1073 on kick & snare - they sound huge.
Also you could try duplicating the kick track and buss them to an aux. EQ one to bring out the lows and the second to get the attack.blend them to taste and then gate/EQ/compress the submaster.
Old 27th June 2006 | Show parent
  #50
Gear Addict
 
rlnyc's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg B
I re-created the drum intro by moving around drum hits until it was in perfect time and then looped it. I also put a low-fi effect on the drum intro.

http://www.rackrecording.com/projects/Over_Me5.mp3

I tweaked the overall mix a little too.
this is just me, but i don't like the new opening. the drums sound like campbell soup cans. there was nothing wrong with it before. i think you are thinking too much. it's a ROCK song. but not a metal or hard rock tune. it needs to be natural not pumped up. some of the interior sounds pretty good (choruses), but in my little opinion you have gone past the point and are worrying it to death.

too many cooks...etc. take all this advice with salt.

regards,
rlnyc.
Old 27th June 2006 | Show parent
  #51
Gear Maniac
 
tubesandteles's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
new mix is best

I like what you did to the intro. I wear a WWJEWD bracelet myself. What would Jimmy Eat World do? Your band doesn't sould like JEW but it has some of the same reason I love JEW for the rest of time in it. The almost mechanical intro is great. (Listen the new Jimmy Eat World EP?) RAW RAWK isn't always the best for kids these days. Gotta feed us Gen. X-ers something mechanical before you melt our faces with the rawk. Before ill timing in the intro was bothersome. Would it have been ill timing live? Probably not... Anyway, I like the state the song is in now. I wish I had a band as good as yours. Be happy and make more songs like that one. It is a little bit JEW and a little bit FOO (fighters). GREAT!
Old 27th June 2006 | Show parent
  #52
Quote:
Originally Posted by tubesandteles
I like what you did to the intro. I wear a WWJEWD bracelet myself. What would Jimmy Eat World do? Your band doesn't sould like JEW but it has some of the same reason I love JEW for the rest of time in it. The almost mechanical intro is great. (Listen the new Jimmy Eat World EP?) RAW RAWK isn't always the best for kids these days. Gotta feed us Gen. X-ers something mechanical before you melt our faces with the rawk. Before ill timing in the intro was bothersome. Would it have been ill timing live? Probably not... Anyway, I like the state the song is in now. I wish I had a band as good as yours. Be happy and make more songs like that one. It is a little bit JEW and a little bit FOO (fighters). GREAT!
Thanks for your comments.
"Mechanical" was exactly what I was going for. The new drum intro was inspired by the Jimmy Eat World song "The World You Love" on the Futures album. Although they are very different songs, I liked the the mechanical AM radio sound of the drums in that song. They may sound like campbell's soup cans but I think I like 'em like that.... I'll have to see what the rest of the band thinks.
Old 27th June 2006 | Show parent
  #53
Quote:
Originally Posted by morpheuzrecords
It's getting better for sure IMHO the kick sound is still too clicky for this type of music and overall the drums lack punch. Set up parallel compression for the drums. leave the first bus dry with no plugs and on the second insert something like the colortone pro or analog channel and crank it up. insert a 1176 and crush the drums hard. blend thoose two together to taste. I usually have the compressed track about -10db from the other. You could swap the balance of the 2 tracks in the intro to have a different taste of the drums in the beginning.
Thanks for the tips. I just might try that.

Since this is the first song of this 13 song album that I'm mixing, I'm using it as a sort of guinea pig. The reason I'm bothering with so many remixes of this song is so that I can hopefully have an easier time with the other 12 songs. If I can get the right drum sound on this song, than I can use the same techniques on the other songs, which were all recorded with the same drum kit.
Old 27th June 2006 | Show parent
  #54
Quote:
Originally Posted by morpheuzrecords
If you have UAD plugs try the new neve1073 on kick & snare - they sound huge.
I have pretty much all the UAD plugs except the neve1073. So you think it's worth buying?
Old 27th June 2006 | Show parent
  #55
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norman_nomad's Avatar
 
5 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg B
I re-created the drum intro by moving around drum hits until it was in perfect time and then looped it. I also put a low-fi effect on the drum intro.

http://www.rackrecording.com/projects/Over_Me5.mp3

I tweaked the overall mix a little too.
I like the new intro. Might I suggest you look for a creative way to transition the lofi drum sound to the hifi drum sound?

A guitar feedback swell or something like it might seal them together in a neat way... now it just sorta changes without reason.

Overall I think your current mix sounds head and shoulders better than the first mix you posted. You should post some of your other tunes!
Old 27th June 2006 | Show parent
  #56
Quote:
Originally Posted by norman_nomad
I like the new intro. Might I suggest you look for a creative way to transition the lofi drum sound to the hifi drum sound?

A guitar feedback swell or something like it might seal them together in a neat way... now it just sorta changes without reason.
That's exactly what's bugging me too! I'm trying to work out the transition cause it sounds kinda random.
Old 28th June 2006 | Show parent
  #57
Gear Maniac
 
tubesandteles's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
SIMPLE ANSWER

If you need to transition... Take, possibly a cymbal crash at the end if there is one, i can't remember. Reverse it. Drop the mechanical am intro at some point, line up the transient of the rev. cymbal in a tasteful spot and then let the drums totally mute for a sec, then let the regulars come in. Get it? I think that is the perfect transition.
Whatcha think?
Old 28th June 2006 | Show parent
  #58
Lives for gear
 
David-Morpheus's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg B
I have pretty much all the UAD plugs except the neve1073. So you think it's worth buying?
download the version 4.3 and demo them for 14 days. You'll see what they are capable of and then decide. I bougth mine just after the demo expired

the idea of first mixing a "template" song where you get the actual shape of the whole sound and save some presets is a good idea - I work that way too. I take one of the songs (preferably the most complex with many instruments ...) and create the sound of the project on it. I apply it then to the rest to get the rough sound and then tweak the rest untill i am happy with it.
Old 28th June 2006 | Show parent
  #59
Quote:
Originally Posted by tubesandteles
If you need to transition... Take, possibly a cymbal crash at the end if there is one, i can't remember. Reverse it. Drop the mechanical am intro at some point, line up the transient of the rev. cymbal in a tasteful spot and then let the drums totally mute for a sec, then let the regulars come in. Get it? I think that is the perfect transition.
Whatcha think?
I was thinking a reversed crash cymbal might sound cool there too, but I'm not sure about totally muting the drums for the transition, cause I think I want to keep the beat going until the verse. It's a good idea to try though.

I think the reversed crash might be a nice effect to sort of wash over the mix into the transition. We're also gonna mess around with adding guitar sounds there.
Old 26th June 2007 | Show parent
  #60
Final Mix and Master

I know it's been awhile since we had this discussion, but we finally finished the 13 song album in May and I wanted you guys to hear the finished version of "Over Me".

Thanks so much for all your input.

Here's the link:
http://www.rackrecording.com/project...ndsey_Pool.mp3
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