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Everyone want's something for Nothing..
Old 20th January 2013
  #1
Lives for gear
 
heyman's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Everyone want's something for Nothing..

So I work on this project over the summer to help a "friend" out. He tells me that they are in no rush to get it out and that they are going to release everything as downloadable content in the near future. They may need me to play guitar on some songs while they look for a replacement guitarist as well as produce some of the songs.

So my role is:
Recording Engineer
Mixing
Guitarist - ended up doing half the rhythm's and All the lead guitars
some producing as well

oh and I even let them use my guitar's and amps..

This is a paying gig, but I am doing it for dirt cheap.. Because it is for a "friend" and he said they were in no rush.. No points, just a straight fee per song and that they were looking for a extremely bare bones price.

Fast forward now that 8 of 10 songs are mixed and they like what I had done for them up until this point. He tells me that there is "label interest".. and that they want to remix everything.....

Now he wants me to stop and hand everything over to him to give to this label..

I asked him what/where and how they would like them..

He tells me he can't give out the name.. I asked him how is he going to pay them? He says what do you mean? I told him the label is going to have to pay the mix engineer and you are paying now or later.

He then emails me back and says send him the files to one song so he can judge how much work it is going to be for the label...





Sometimes I just don't get how clueless people can be. I hope they read the contract before they sign anything.. Good luck with that bro..


Old 20th January 2013
  #2
Lives for gear
 
frans's Avatar
 
10 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Some people never notice when they get a gift. I'd ask him how all of that does include you.
Old 20th January 2013
  #3
Lives for gear
 
heyman's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Frans, I also went out of my way to try and work with the drummer. Ton's of timing issues and bad playing. Some drumming parts had to be cut and pasted because they were just not up to par ...... and this is after multiple takes.

I know this is part of the job sometimes, but this is just ridiculous.

I am more than happy to stop working on it and hand it over to someone else..
Old 20th January 2013
  #4
Lives for gear
 
frans's Avatar
 
10 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Yeah, get rid of people that don't see what you do.
Reminds me of this band I recorded, mixed to their full satisfaction (at least it was back then), got them a few placements for their songs, helped the singer to keep her skateshop with a trick that even lowered her rent, helped them get a few shows ... and a few months later they re-recorded the whole thing, beat detective, drum replacer,but wait, there's an upside: they went elsewhere. No, I really don't feel I missed out on this "modern hardcore" type sound where every tom sounds the same and that has been brickwalled into oblivion.
Old 20th January 2013
  #5
70% Coffee, 30% Beer
 
Doc Mixwell's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
I would - in this situation (when people play wacky head games with you)
-release everything no problem, right along with the final paid invoice for the work agreed upon.

If things rolled that way on me, I would politely request that my name not be used and terminate the business relationship with the individual.
Old 21st January 2013
  #6
Lives for gear
 
heyman's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Like I said... this guy wants Filet Mignon on a Chuck Wagon Budget.

He shouldn't worry about my bill since it really is miniscule at this point. I think they are in for some sticker shock when they get the other guy's bill..

You win..!
Old 21st January 2013
  #7
Gear Guru
 
Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Sometimes it is better to walk away from situations like this when it becomes apparent that you are being taken for a ride.

Today a lot of people seem to have problems telling the whole truth or they fudge the details and hope no one will notice. They want everything to go their way and are willing to walk over anyone to get what the want or think they want.

I have been in similar situations and as others have stated just give them the final invoice, tell them when it is paid you will release the materials and say to yourself good riddance.

Sometimes I work for less on people's material because they are friends or because I think the project has real merit. I try and help as much as I can but when I start to feel like they are playing me or they start to demand things I simply tell them that I am doing this as a friend but if you have real deadlines then I need to do this as a real commercial project and need to get paid my normal rate to get it done. In one case it cost me a friendship but looking back I wonder if their was a real friendship or if I was just being setup from the beginning.

Best of luck!
Old 21st January 2013
  #8
Lives for gear
 
heyman's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Thanks Tom..

At this point the money is irrelevant.
Old 21st January 2013
  #9
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by heyman ➑️
Frans, I also went out of my way to try and work with the drummer. Ton's of timing issues and bad playing. Some drumming parts had to be cut and pasted because they were just not up to par ...... and this is after multiple takes.

I know this is part of the job sometimes, but this is just ridiculous.

I am more than happy to stop working on it and hand it over to someone else..
If the label is to mix them i'd send the raw stems, if you are not going to get any money for your hard work they may as well pay for everything except the initial tracking

Sent from my GT-I8190
Old 21st January 2013 | Show parent
  #10
Lives for gear
 
heyman's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dubmunkey ➑️
If the label is to mix them i'd send the raw stems, if you are not going to get any money for your hard work they may as well pay for everything except the initial tracking

Sent from my GT-I8190
They will be the Raw Wav files, but they have already been moved and edited..

Wonder if I have the originals around here somewhere... haha-
Old 21st January 2013
  #11
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by heyman ➑️
They will be the Raw Wav files, but they have already been moved and edited..

Wonder if I have the originals around here somewhere... haha-
Well i think its valid to send the originals in case the label want to reedit the takes differently... but of course the time consuming nature of edits will allow the artist a true view of the cost of things

Once i sent the raw wavs i'd contact the artist and state the you've sent on the takes and now need to remove the files from your machine and then you can sever all ties

There's no reason you cant do this and stay professional

Sent from my GT-I8190
Old 21st January 2013
  #12
Moderator
 
psycho_monkey's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dubmunkey ➑️
If the label is to mix them i'd send the raw stems, if you are not going to get any money for your hard work they may as well pay for everything except the initial tracking

Sent from my GT-I8190
Quote:
Originally Posted by heyman ➑️
They will be the Raw Wav files, but they have already been moved and edited..

Wonder if I have the originals around here somewhere... haha-
Quote:
Originally Posted by dubmunkey ➑️
Well i think its valid to send the originals in case the label want to reedit the takes differently... but of course the time consuming nature of edits will allow the artist a true view of the cost of things

Once i sent the raw wavs i'd contact the artist and state the you've sent on the takes and now need to remove the files from your machine and then you can sever all ties

There's no reason you cant do this and stay professional

Sent from my GT-I8190
If you've been paid the agreed rate (however low) it's a work for hire, and morally you should hand over the work paid for - which in this case includes the editing. It would kind of be petty not to, wouldn't it? It really wouldn't be professional to delete the edited tracks without keeping/passing on copies. Once they've been passed on, of course you can remove them (I wouldn't, but some would!).

Anything mixwise of course, you wouldn't pass on. If anyone complains ("oh what about that cool effect we were playing with?") then it goes on the clock as billable hours.
Old 21st January 2013
  #13
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey ➑️
If you've been paid the agreed rate (however low) it's a work for hire, and morally you should hand over the work paid for - which in this case includes the editing. It would kind of be petty not to, wouldn't it? It really wouldn't be professional to delete the edited tracks without keeping/passing on copies. Once they've been passed on, of course you can remove them (I wouldn't, but some would!).

Anything mixwise of course, you wouldn't pass on. If anyone complains ("oh what about that cool effect we were playing with?") then it goes on the clock as billable hours.
Depends if the editing was paid for, the deal sounds pretty vague

If the songs are to become label property they will probably want you to delete the stems

The OP could easily state that he doesn't want his guitar playing used but isn't - so the label and artist are getting tracking, performance and editing for free - hardly professional of them but not in any way surprising

Sent from my GT-I8190
Old 21st January 2013
  #14
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dubmunkey ➑️
Depends if the editing was paid for, the deal sounds pretty vague and sounds like he hasn't been paid...

If the songs are to become label property they will probably want you to delete the stems

The OP could easily state that he doesn't want his guitar playing used but isn't - so the label and artist are getting tracking, performance and editing for free - hardly professional of them but not in any way surprising

Sent from my GT-I8190


Sent from my GT-I8190
Old 21st January 2013
  #15
Lives for gear
 
heyman's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
I will be sending them the edited wav files.

I did my part and went over and above on this project..

I'm taking the high road.

Thanks guys.
Old 21st January 2013
  #16
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by heyman ➑️
I will be sending them the edited wav files.

I did my part and went over and above on this project..

I'm taking the high road.

Thanks guys.
Fair play to you

Sent from my GT-I8190
Old 21st January 2013
  #17
Lives for gear
 
Ward Pike's Avatar
 
15 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
If you did some producing, you should demand some sort of payment from the label and have a written agreement to ensure you are acknowledged for all your work. I have been screwed over sideways walking down this high road too.

And remuneration for services should always be taken seriously as it affixes a value to what you have done.

Demand who your label contact is before releasing anything and then let them know your final bill before releasing.
Old 22nd January 2013 | Show parent
  #18
Moderator
 
psycho_monkey's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dubmunkey ➑️
Depends if the editing was paid for, the deal sounds pretty vague
(off on a tangent for the moment, I'm aware the OP has made their choice!)

To recap, the OP said:

"So my role is:
Recording Engineer
Mixing
Guitarist - ended up doing half the rhythm's and All the lead guitars
some producing as well

oh and I even let them use my guitar's and amps..

This is a paying gig, but I am doing it for dirt cheap.."

So it's a paying gig for the above work. Pretty difficult to mix unedited takes meaningfully, so if there's no additional editing going on by someone else, editing is built into the above roles. Having done all the work, to then hand it over unedited and delete the edits without even giving the option to the band to PAY for them, doesn't sound very professional to me. In fact, it sounds petulant!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dubmunkey ➑️
If the songs are to become label property they will probably want you to delete the stems
I've never been asked to delete anything by a label. I even keep backups of stuff I did years ago that have been released, but I admit maybe I'm just a touch anal there

That said, I did get a call last year: "yeah, that session we did last month...can you send over the vocal parts? we've lost them, and we're mastering tomorrow!". Major label, album went to #1......that's the level of competence we're dealing with!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dubmunkey ➑️
The OP could easily state that he doesn't want his guitar playing used but isn't - so the label and artist are getting tracking, performance and editing for free - hardly professional of them but not in any way surprising
reading the post, he said he's been paid - so they're getting it cheap, but that's not really a problem if that was the initial agreement. the agreement is between the artist and the engineer. Once that's been sorted, anything the artist does is up to them - the engineer is a work for hire.

Now - IF someone's co-producing for an unsigned band, there might be a contract stating that they're entitled to a further cut - or a cut of the royalties. If that is then welched on - that's underhand. But you can't get annoyed at not being paid more if you agreed to the initial fee.
Old 22nd January 2013
  #19
Gear Guru
Hand over the files and move on, it's not work the headache!
Old 22nd January 2013
  #20
Lives for gear
 
jordanvoth's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Honestly,
It would be awesome to out some of these bands already. The answer now is pay the full rate.
Old 22nd January 2013
  #21
Lives for gear
 
heyman's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
I know this guy well enough to not burn bridges and just let it be..

I think in hindsight he means well, but has a tendency to make really bad rash decisions..

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