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Jim Williams: What's happening to all your post?
Old 20th January 2013 | Show parent
  #511
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey ➡️

Again, great vocal performance. Everything else...not that fussed really! Someone should have recorded a bit hotter though, that tape hiss is unacceptable, even by the standards of the time! what went wrong there? I know it's probably been remastered a bit brighter, but you don't hear that on the Beatles' stuff..
What went wrong is the mastering, you have good ears.

The analogue to digital master is awful as usual.

The first one is an abomination done in the early 90s and needs to be updated.

G
Old 20th January 2013 | Show parent
  #512
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey ➡️
Same song...I think it sounds great when full res(you might want to find a non-youtube version to actually avoid the encoding). nothing to do with me, although I have worked with the mix engineer.

Love the Nashville Skyline album any version is great to hear.

Reminds me of Leonard Cohen a bit but at least he hits the notes, haha.

It was recorded digitally for certain but nice balance, nice trance as they say in Africa, another way of saying the groove is right.

G
Old 20th January 2013 | Show parent
  #513
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey ➡️
So essentially, everyone who's made music in the past 15 years or more (PT was pretty much the standard in 1999) is making cartoon music? Every single film soundtrack which are ALWAYS 100% digital, is cartoon (actually, I know one that wasn't - the 2nd Harry Potter film was recorded and mixed from 48track analogue, although of course a digital copy was made at the same time. I know because I was there). Even those working to tape like T-Bone Burnett, are known to transfer to digital (usually PT, although it really doesn't matter - a DAW is a DAW).

Even your friend Eddie K works with Pro Tools these days. Not worked with him personally, but a friend assisted him more than once. Gonna give him a call, tell him he makes cartoon music?

!
I know, right?

I understand standards, when VHS video first came out, Sony had a better standard, Betamax, but the other mfgrs ganged up and VHS, the lower quality became the standard.

There are a lot of reasons why people adopt things.

One could argue, me included that the PC operating system was inferior to Apple like the above example.

So, then we have proven that the best technical standard does not always win.

I would argue that the opposite is true, the technical standard pushed by the most money wins and if innovation and size are oppositely correlated, then
the odds are not the best.

So, then, it is possible because of the above argument that Eddie and the rest are just following along making a living - and, of course, EK works digital dude, has a Waves plug line, duh...again money.

Eddie is not my friend, probably worked together about 40 hours, David Palmer was with us mostly, great guy, good vibe.

But Eddie was a great host and Electic Ladyland was one of the best vibes to record in anywhere.

But yes, you can tell him for me and print out what I say that anyone who introduces digital processing into their signal chain is compromising it.

That's my opinion and I hear it everyday.

G
Old 20th January 2013 | Show parent
  #514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey ➡️

That says to me you know analogue techniques a lot better than digital techniques. Hardly surprising you're finding it difficult to adapt (a 20yr layoff probably doesn't help....not exactly going to be "match fit" are you?)

!
Hmmm, um, not a technique thing at all, did digital with 5 different DAWs no problem, good sound, just not the best sound and that aftertaste...

got my chops back long ago dude like riding a bike

g
Old 20th January 2013 | Show parent
  #515
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey ➡️

No, but perhaps you should learn what you're doing before slagging it off. Or resign yourself to only listening to music made before the 80s maybe. And maybe show some respect to those who have moved with the times? You seem to think everyone is slagging you off, but really no-one has - all anyone has taken offence to is your criticism of EVERYONE. In other words, your attitude.
Can you inform me about what I should learn, bit too general.

I make music now, why do I need the 80s?

I have all the respect in the world for anyone who makes a living
as an artist.

Respect is earned.

I tell you what my conclusions are and some say ridiculous, how could
anyone say such a thing.

Amazingly rigid, but...

Others who agree with me are contacting me because they can see in your empty eyeballs staring ahead...

The Pro Tools Zombies

hahaha

G
Old 20th January 2013 | Show parent
  #516
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey ➡️


Talking trash "again"? when have I talked trash in the first place? I'm not the one who universally insulted the entire modern recording world after a 20yr sabbatical!

I'm very lucky in that I've been able to work in some of the UK's best studios (and worldwide too). I think I've used most LFACs, small consoles, many different tape machines both as an assistant and as an engineer. I'm no "name" but I've got a reasonable list of credits. I've been able to work with and for some of the best producers and engineers, and as such I think I've had a fairly well rounded audio education.

So yeah...I'm not quite on 15 years experience (yet - not far off) but I've certainly done a fair bit in the past 15 years!
Good luck dude, you will be fine.

Lots of passion, some misplaced but you are a serious guy.

The proof, after all is the music as you pointed out.

Not for Jim, not what he does, but all the people who diss me should really wait until the hear the music, not good poker to bet before the hand is dealt.

We can all compare the sound I get to the cartoon - high end animation btw - haha - and then all will be revealed.

What if I am right,......??????

G
Old 20th January 2013 | Show parent
  #517
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey ➡️
Oh man...you STILL don't get it do you?

RADAR is "Digital". Recording into a digital box is digital, regardless of the converters used.

I've done albums where we've used RADAR for conversion only. Recording into PT. What does that make my recordings? Digital? RADAR? sonically, it should be the same...unless you're of the belief that a RADAR PC does something magically different to any other PC in existence. It doesn't of course, but that doesn't stop the non-logical amongst our ranks believing it does.

I suggest you ask DL what he uses on most of his projects. I'm sure he HAS used RADAR - I'm also fairly certain he's a big PT user. Whilst he's certainly one of the "few" unique producers, he's not the sort of person I was referring to. DL could come to any commercial studio and work off their PT rig, and be fine. Liam Watson (for want of a better example) is a package with his studio, who'd be lost in a regular studio. You go to him for the way he works as well as what he does. But there's not much room in the industry for more than a few to have this approach.



Which thread?
If you record with RADAR like I do and do not process digitally meaning it never goes into a computer or out - other than a RADAR - I call that as analogue as you can hear.

Once you put into Pro Toos, I can hear the change so not as analogue as you can hear.

Are you clear dude, very simple 8th time I said that.

G
Old 20th January 2013 | Show parent
  #518
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey ➡️
Oh man...you STILL don't get it do you?

RADAR is "Digital". Recording into a digital box is digital, regardless of the converters used.

I've done albums where we've used RADAR for conversion only. Recording into PT. What does that make my recordings? Digital? RADAR? sonically, it should be the same...unless you're of the belief that a RADAR PC does something magically different to any other PC in existence. It doesn't of course, but that doesn't stop the non-logical amongst our ranks believing it does.

I suggest you ask DL what he uses on most of his projects. I'm sure he HAS used RADAR - I'm also fairly certain he's a big PT user. Whilst he's certainly one of the "few" unique producers, he's not the sort of person I was referring to. DL could come to any commercial studio and work off their PT rig, and be fine. Liam Watson (for want of a better example) is a package with his studio, who'd be lost in a regular studio. You go to him for the way he works as well as what he does. But there's not much room in the industry for more than a few to have this approach.



Which thread?
I see you do thorough research or you don't have this new thing called Google.

Pic attached of Daniel Lanois from the RADAR website with this quote:

“I like the Radar because I grew up using tape recorders, and it is like using a tape recorder.” Daniel Lanois
Attached Thumbnails
Jim Williams: What's happening to all your post?-daniel.jpeg  
Old 20th January 2013 | Show parent
  #519
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey ➡️
But there's not much room in the industry for more than a few to have this approach.



Which thread?
Psycho,

Yes there is not much room in the industry for people like Daniel Lanois who uses a RADAR that costs less than the Macs you work on.

If the creator himself touched you and said, dude, G and DL are right, you would probably tell him he was rude and wouldn't listen.

G
Old 20th January 2013 | Show parent
  #520
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey ➡️


Which thread?
https://gearspace.com/board/high-end...rd-gear-8.html

Song 02 first using all of Jims outboards, rough mix
Old 20th January 2013 | Show parent
  #521
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GNWT ➡️
https://gearspace.com/board/high-end...rd-gear-8.html

Song 02 first using all of Jims outboards, rough mix
Psycho,

If you listen, tell me...

What do you think of the drum sound?

g
Old 20th January 2013 | Show parent
  #522
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by GNWT ➡️
Just marketing dude, since I started posting here about 3 days ago, the posts are up 67% about what they were in 3 months.

What am I marketing:

The idea that you don't have to sell your soul to the Pro Tools company store.
What posts exactly are you talking about? "Up 67%"...erm what? compared to what? you really are a little strange.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GNWT ➡️
And rigid young ego freaks (generically, of course, not you, but Psycho and poor Kenny) expose the digital myth of equality by their refusal to discuss the subject.
What exactly are we doing here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GNWT ➡️
Thoughtful intelligent musicians are contacting me and asking me about cost etc.
You are all a great help in my cause, thank you!

I am officially just starting.

G
God help GS....

Quote:
Originally Posted by GNWT ➡️
Again, my young confused friend, I know what colour is.

It will be a different colour with a dirty signal chain and that is random
but maybe you can't hear the difference from your computer sound card
which of course is understandable.

G
This sentence doesn't really make any sense I'm afraid - not to me, nor anyone with recording experience! I can hear clean, I can hear dirty...but I'm not talking about a "dirty" signal chain. I don't think anyone aspires to that. But you know that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GNWT ➡️
Again, my young and very confused friend, if it possible to lock it because you don't like what people say that is a fascist act, objectively.

G
Not really. It's possible because someone has deemed it might be necessary on a board filled with this many egos. You got a problem with that, start your own forum. I didn't make the rules, I've just been asked to help with them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GNWT ➡️
You say G is a fascist, Bill.

No problem, please explain why.

Did I threaten to lock the post because I didn't like
what people say?

Psycho did that.

G
Again, no I didn't. Please take that back, or provide proof.

I said I COULD but I WOULDN'T. That's not a threat. That's the opposite of fascism. That's called "free speech".

Although I am starting to get a little annoyed with you accusing me of saying the direct opposite of what I do say. That's called being poor at English.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GNWT ➡️
Interesting comment about cleaning up the vocals with editing, which is what you understandably thought of.

You could do that but the lead singer would de-capitate you, so not a great idea.
Depends if the lead singer is paying the bills or not.

If I'm the producer delivering a product to a record company exec who's paying the bills, the singer can do what they like. I'll try to please all parties , but ultimately where does the buck stop? I want to get hired again by the person paying the bills. If the singer loves what I do but doesn't choose who is hired, and the record company hates what I do and never hires me again.

Maybe you'd say "art wins" but that doesn't feed a family does it? Good luck on your idealist world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GNWT ➡️
The idea that anyone would record a capella with a DAW is frightening to me.

G
Why? The idea that people think that obvious mistakes are part of "feel" is kind of weird to me...but that's the beauty of taste, innit? I'm not saying you're WRONG...just that I don't agree.
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Old 20th January 2013 | Show parent
  #523
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey ➡️

Although I am starting to get a little annoyed with you accusing me of saying the direct opposite of what I do say. That's called being poor at English.



Depends if the lead singer is paying the bills or not.

If I'm the producer delivering a product to a record company exec who's paying the bills, the singer can do what they like. I'll try to please all parties , but ultimately where does the buck stop? I want to get hired again by the person paying the bills. If the singer loves what I do but doesn't choose who is hired, and the record company hates what I do and never hires me again.

Maybe you'd say "art wins" but that doesn't feed a family does it? Good luck on your idealist world.
Personally, I do what the artistic creative force needs.

Nothing personal but your idea is for this digital world that you would even think of editing "mistakes" of an artist the stature of the one you want to change.

I don't know where to start so I won't but your digital editing of every "mistake" and your willing and wonderful glow about it scares me.

Some others will know what I am talking about it is subtle - not about you - but about the world we live in today.

Now I know why Lady Gaga...thanks.

Wow

G
Old 20th January 2013 | Show parent
  #524
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psycho_monkey's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by GNWT ➡️
Can you inform me about what I should learn, bit too general.
How to make a DAW sound good. Others can...you can't. I'm not saying you SHOULD learn, just accept that you can't do it when others can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GNWT ➡️
I make music now, why do I need the 80s?
I didn't say you needed it, I said that by your own admission you've been out of the loop for a while...it's obviously going to take a while to catch up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GNWT ➡️
I tell you what my conclusions are and some say ridiculous, how could
anyone say such a thing.

Amazingly rigid, but...

Others who agree with me are contacting me because they can see in your empty eyeballs staring ahead...

The Pro Tools Zombies

hahaha

G
Again, you're failing to read...no-one's said what does or doesn't work for you, but to dismiss the last 15 years of EVERYTHING as "cartoon" is a little ridiculous...and as proof, you've put up an unlistenably hissy track, and an a cappella recording. Strange.

And as stated, I LIKE TAPE! most of us do - anything but "PT Zombies". But that's not as much fun as throwing names out is it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GNWT ➡️
Respect is earned.
Slightly quoted out of context, but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by GNWT ➡️
Not for Jim, not what he does, but all the people who diss me should really wait until the hear the music, not good poker to bet before the hand is dealt.

We can all compare the sound I get to the cartoon - high end animation btw - haha - and then all will be revealed.

What if I am right,......??????

G
We're waiting...with baited breath...nah, not really. But I'm confused, this thread isn't about you....is it? I thought you were defending JW, not self-publicising your own project....are you?

Might be worth learning not all publicity is good publicity....

Ironically, prejudging everyone else is exactly what you've done. Funny that.
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Old 20th January 2013 | Show parent
  #525
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey ➡️

Why? The idea that people think that obvious mistakes are part of "feel" is kind of weird to me...but that's the beauty of taste, innit? I'm not saying you're WRONG...just that I don't agree.
I will boldly let you speak for yourself.
Old 20th January 2013 | Show parent
  #526
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by GNWT ➡️
Hmmm, um, not a technique thing at all, did digital with 5 different DAWs no problem, good sound, just not the best sound and that aftertaste...

got my chops back long ago dude like riding a bike

g
That would suggest it's the pilot not the plane...talking of which, no-one who flies a multi-millionaire around in a private jet would be denied the title "pilot"...but if he doesn't fly for 15 years, he doesn't get straight behind the controls, he's got some catching up to do right?

And he certainly doesn't sit down at the controls of a helicopter and expect to be able to fly with the same dexterity he did 15 years ago at the controls of a jet.

Over to you, captain.
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Old 20th January 2013 | Show parent
  #527
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by GNWT ➡️
What went wrong is the mastering, you have good ears.

The analogue to digital master is awful as usual.

The first one is an abomination done in the early 90s and needs to be updated.

G
You don't need good ears to hear that mate, you need good ears to hear the music behind it!

I'd say quiet/dull signal levels to tape in the first place - that's boosted tape hiss, not hiss induced at mastering.
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Old 20th January 2013 | Show parent
  #528
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey ➡️
That would suggest it's the pilot not the plane...talking of which, no-one who flies a multi-millionaire around in a private jet would be denied the title "pilot"...but if he doesn't fly for 15 years, he doesn't get straight behind the controls, he's got some catching up to do right?

And he certainly doesn't sit down at the controls of a helicopter and expect to be able to fly with the same dexterity he did 15 years ago at the controls of a jet.

Over to you, captain.
Psycho,

I have no problem, I don't want to be a sound animator, need to move 4 faders with two fingers and punch mute groups in and out on my Midas board.

Not mourning the fact that digital is inadequate, though would have cost a lot less.

G
Old 20th January 2013 | Show parent
  #529
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey ➡️
You don't need good ears to hear that mate, you need good ears to hear the music behind it!

I'd say quiet/dull signal levels to tape in the first place - that's boosted tape hiss, not hiss induced at mastering.
Dude, the digital transfer mastering from analogue is hoffific, I did not do that nor did anyone else who cared about that record.

G
Old 20th January 2013 | Show parent
  #530
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey ➡️
You don't need good ears to hear that mate, you need good ears to hear the music behind it!

I'd say quiet/dull signal levels to tape in the first place - that's boosted tape hiss, not hiss induced at mastering.
you would have to listen to the vinyl to know, don't have it
Old 20th January 2013 | Show parent
  #531
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by GNWT ➡️
Personally, I do what the artistic creative force needs.
As long as that creative force is also paying the bills, or the person paying the bills is in agreement (or at least supports the artist's decision), then I'm with you.

Otherwise you won't find your business in business for long!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GNWT ➡️
Nothing personal but your idea is for this digital world that you would even think of editing "mistakes" of an artist the stature of the one you want to change.
Not entirely sure the above sentence makes sense, but I get your sentiment. I'm all for a better recording. If something bugs me I'd want it changed. If I'm just engineering for another producer, I'll do what they want, and only offer an opinion if asked. If a crack in the voice adds to the emotion, of course I'll leave it. If it sounds like a gaffe, I don't care who's made it, I think it should be fixed. If you don't agree with that aesthetic, no probs, your choice. But that doesn't make either of us wrong - there's plenty of successful people with my viewpoint, just as there are plenty with yours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GNWT ➡️
I don't know where to start so I won't but your digital editing of every "mistake" and your willing and wonderful glow about it scares me.

Some others will know what I am talking about it is subtle - not about you - but about the world we live in today.
Again, good luck in the current musical climate! It completely depends on the artist of course - I wouldn't dream of hyper editing punk for example!

But you think in the classic records of the past, they wouldn't have fixed up errors where they could? you think the Beatles wouldn't have rather not been able to hear the edits in "day in the life" or "strawberry fields"? It's obviously difficult to accept that, but I'm pretty certain they would. It's only as songs become "classics" that mistakes become "feel".

Quote:
Originally Posted by GNWT ➡️
Now I know why Lady Gaga...thanks.

Wow

G

Not my sort of music either, but I can appreciate the better songs for what they are and why they're popular.

Your dad hated your music too, no doubt
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Old 20th January 2013 | Show parent
  #532
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by GNWT ➡️
I will boldly let you speak for yourself.
Thank you. I stand by that remark. It's also one of the first times you've not misrepresented what I posted, or argued against something I didn't say.

Notice however, that I didn't say "everything should always be perfectly in time and tune" or something. I think deliberate plays with timing and tempo are great of course - that IS feel. It's when things sound like a gaffe (eg Jeff Beck playing a guitar solo; hits an obviously bum note. HE would fix it in this situation by retaking it, or dropping in...that's all I'm suggesting!) that I believe it would sound BETTER without - ie retakes or the odd nudge/comp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GNWT ➡️
Psycho,

I have no problem, I don't want to be a sound animator, need to move 4 faders with two fingers and punch mute groups in and out on my Midas board.

Not mourning the fact that digital is inadequate, though would have cost a lot less.

G
I think you can do that on digital too these days!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GNWT ➡️
Dude, the digital transfer mastering from analogue is hoffific, I did not do that nor did anyone else who cared about that record.

G
Quote:
Originally Posted by GNWT ➡️
you would have to listen to the vinyl to know, don't have it
I don't have it either, but I still think it's tape hiss! I guess we have to leave it there, since neither of us can prove otherwise.
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Old 20th January 2013 | Show parent
  #533
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey ➡️

Your dad hated your music too, no doubt
Psycho,

My dad produced race records in the late 40s, managed Jackie Wilson and Billie Paul in the 60s, took me to a pressing plant to press my first record when I was 10 and took me to see an "Uncle", who wrote top ten hits for Elvis...

Anybody ever heard Sixty Minute Man, Billy Ward and the Dominos, featuring Jackie Wilson and Ben E King?

So, no,never had that issue, he taught me a lot about making records...started on direct to disk.

How do you think I got this way.

But it is also because being around music guys and record rats as my mother
called them like Jerry Moss, the M in A&M who didn't listen to people who told him that an instrumental act couldn't sell.

Of course, nobody would buy instrumentals in volume, right?

I heard a discussion of this backstage in Philadelphia in 1963 or so when Herb Alpert and Jerry were promoting The Lonely Bull.

They built a quarter billion dollar record company on Tijuana Brass and Brazil 66, so I kind of learned that if you want to be int he game,do what everyone else is, if you want to be above the game think for yourself.

I got out of the business because of my musical experiences in Africa where music means something very different that it does in the West.

I said I wouldn't come back to it until I could do what I want my way because there were no alternatives to the big guys.

I wasn't on "sabbatical", I was acquiring the resources to do what i set out to do 25 years ago.

G
Old 20th January 2013 | Show parent
  #534
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1 Review written
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Lady Gaga is hypnosis, meant to upset and confuse, good music puts one in a trance and heals.

One is righteous, the other is not, up to the reader.

G
Old 20th January 2013 | Show parent
  #535
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drBill's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by GNWT ➡️
You say G is a fascist, Bill.

No problem, please explain why.

Did I threaten to lock the post because I didn't like
what people say?

Psycho did that.

G
No, no I didn't.


Reading comprehension bro. Go back and re-read. I intimated that SOMEONE (guess who) called PSYCHO a fascist.

PS - it's Psycho's JOB to lock threads.
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Old 20th January 2013 | Show parent
  #536
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drBill's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by GNWT ➡️
The idea that anyone would record a capella with a DAW is frightening to me.

G
You must live in a very frightening world then.....

Sad.
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Old 20th January 2013 | Show parent
  #537
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill ➡️
No, no I didn't.


Reading comprehension bro. Go back and re-read. I intimated that SOMEONE (guess who) called PSYCHO a fascist.

PS - it's Psycho's JOB to lock threads.
Bill,

See again lost in translation.

What I said was if you wanted to call me a fascist
just say it, I won't be upset.

It's an opinion just like mine about Psycho, bit of
hyperbole, bit of fun, dash of annoyance, you know...

GS

G
Old 20th January 2013 | Show parent
  #538
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill ➡️
You must live in a very frightening world then.....

Sad.

Bill,

Actually the fact that y'all think that fractional sound is great sets the bar quite low.

The album cut I played you is considered the finest album of the genre, you can look up the reviews, and easily the highest grossing.

As the Lovin' Spoonful sang...

It's like trying to tell a stranger about rock and roll...1966

G
Old 20th January 2013 | Show parent
  #539
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drBill's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by GNWT ➡️
Bill,

See again lost in translation.
OK. Accepted. Perhaps you should learn to form complete sentences with structure and form. Your points would be FAR less misconstrued.
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Old 20th January 2013 | Show parent
  #540
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If Pro Tools was invented in 1965...

Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill ➡️
You must live in a very frightening world then.....

Sad.
Bill,

What is sad, to me, that is, is that a young engineer like Psycho does
not realize that you don't edit a vocal of one of the masters of a genre.


And now another episode of the horror of...

If Pro Tools was invented in 1965...

Arif Mardin: Tom, did you get that down?

Tom Dowd: Yeah, cool Arif, tell Aretha we are good, will just copy and paste the ending of Natural Woman, maybe clean up that part where she bends the note.




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