Quantcast
Bands don't understand what I am offering... - Page 4 - Gearspace.com
The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
Bands don't understand what I am offering...
Old 27th September 2012 | Show parent
  #91
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by logicll ➑️
First.. arrowood101 are you saying fewer people are micing drums for projects?
Is recording with actual microphones going away?? lol
Have no idea where you got that from my post. Not what I was saying and is kind of silly to jump to that. What I was saying is you don't get a full day anymore to play around and search for that unique/perfect drum sound for each project, i.e. even the "big guys" have had to cut back. Don't know if you have looked around but the industry sucks to a certain extent for everyone these days and nothing is ideal.

Since most "big names" have a team of guys that regularly work for them, and everyone knows what each other likes are, the process can go a bit quicker, but would be a nice luxury to have. For example another side effect of this is if you get a gig working with a producer/engineer in house and you don't suck. Chances are you will have a job for awhile, if you want it, because their is no time even to rotate personnel.

It sucks but it is reality unfortunately, until something can be done about music commerce.
Old 27th September 2012 | Show parent
  #92
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
I think arrowood101 was saying that nowadays bands expect the engineer in smaller towns (not LA) to have their own tracking room. It's expected almost to be packaged. Barely even worth mentioning that you have a room.

I know in my city it's like that. We aren't exactly a music mecca, but nobody rents out rooms. Mention that to any band and they will say "k, cya. We don't have to pay for that when this guy has a half-decent room and is therefore much cheaper."

Of course, I could be sadly mistaken what it's like elsewhere. Probably am! haha
Old 27th September 2012 | Show parent
  #93
Lives for gear
 
logicll's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Right, ok.

So do you guys have a kit miked up kit all the time? Or do you just work with you got and get the kit up in an hour or 2?

I understand the comments about the room and everybody having their own space, but I think it's bad for the musical community. Everybody is doing their own thing, so you have a bunch of studios that are all lacking something.

I would rather have 3 great rooms in a town rather than 15 converted office buildings or garages (especially for drums).

I am working on getting my own room, but I enjoy the idea of renting different rooms for different task, I know one guy who has a great sounding piano another that has a nice vocal tracking setup ect... (these are private studios so it's tough talking them into letting me use them).

When did every engineer/producer be expected to own a studio.. Ownership is a whole different thing.
Old 27th September 2012 | Show parent
  #94
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by logicll ➑️
Right, ok.

So do you guys have a kit miked up kit all the time? Or do you just work with you got and get the kit up in an hour or 2?

I understand the comments about the room and everybody having their own space, but I think it's bad for the musical community. Everybody is doing their own thing, so you have a bunch of studios that are all lacking something.

I would rather have 3 great rooms in a town rather than 15 converted office buildings or garages (especially for drums).

I am working on getting my own room, but I enjoy the idea of renting different rooms for different task, I know one guy who has a great sounding piano another that has a nice vocal tracking setup ect... (these are private studios so it's tough talking them into letting me use them).

When did every engineer/producer be expected to own a studio.. Ownership is a whole different thing.
Please take my comments with grain of salt, as I'm small-time and aside from interning at one of the bigger mastering facilities in the country, I've not worked in the industry.

Things seem to have changed more and more in the last 10 years. People aren't expected to own a studio, they are expected to have turned a space within their home into a recording studio. I know you disagree with the effectiveness of this, but it's reality round here. And I think if you are working with unsigned/untoured bands, it's probably the same expectation.

And I do not keep my drums miced at all times. I need those mics for other jobs, and I need the space for other things as well. I've just gotten really good at having a few choice drumkit configs and micing setups to suit a project. I often spend an hour before the band shows up setting things up, making sure they can almost just walk in, warm up, get sounds, adjust mics/tuning/etc, and press record.

If you want to have choice spaces and have people agreeing to pay for them, you gotta get out of the small market I think.... or have bigger clients come to you. Seems like you would have trouble simply due to being so close to LA, as you said. You'd have to charge much less and be that much more of an awesome personality to have people come your way over the lights and stars of LA it sounds like.

Once again, please take my comments with the knowledge that I'm not in your shoes or your region so perhaps I'm wrong on all accounts
Old 27th September 2012 | Show parent
  #95
Gear Guru
 
joelpatterson's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by logicll ➑️
... a whole different thing...
Times change, this is a process that's ongoing. There used to be people at gas stations whose whole job was to pump gas into cars. Apparently, they were not as vital to the process as it seemed at the time.

Similarly, the stratification of olden times, where there were separate "producers" and "engineers" and "techs" and "receptionists" has ebbed away. There must have been reasons for the original configurations-- gear was touchy and required constant attention and babying, maybe? Your "engineer" found his task all-consuming? Something.

These days, you really don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows, you can get up-to-date real-time video animations on your iPhone...
Old 27th September 2012 | Show parent
  #96
Lives for gear
 
logicll's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
To get usable drums it takes a good room and at least a basic set of mics.

Perhaps I am in denial, but to me making albums is not using BFD for drums or sample replacement (because you drums are out of phase and suck), DI fake guitar tone and other various plugins to mask the fact that your project features no actual miked up instruments ..

I know we can't use tape and spend a year tracking>> things move on, but rather than **** out low quality work because I was in a rush to track 5 songs in a day...I rather just stop making albums professionally.
Old 27th September 2012 | Show parent
  #97
Lives for gear
 
brockorama's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by logicll ➑️
Perhaps I am in denial, but to me making albums is not using BFD for drums or sample replacement (because you drums are out of phase and suck), DI fake guitar tone and other various plugins to mask the fact that your project features no actual miked up instruments ..
I agree for a heavy rock record, which accounts for about 2% of
recorded material nowdays. I use SD2 for lots of things and it fits nicely. Are you up on current tech?

Another negative is they are only coming to track drums in 2012. Then they take the tracks and go somewhere to do bass and guitars. Its not personal.

I think a lot record a la carte today, as time and money permits, unless they have a deal which accounts for .01% of musicians.

My advice? Stop worrying about making albums. Be a swiss army knife....record what they want, when they want, how they want, get a cheque and move on.

In the last 2 years I move heavy into video so I can offer a whole array of products to make money. Its hard out there, but we try to adapt to pay the bottom line. Good luck with it all.
Old 27th September 2012 | Show parent
  #98
Lives for gear
 
logicll's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Yes, If I am producing a project and the client can't afford to track real drums I will use BFD and program them. I still mix them through hardware though.
Old 27th September 2012 | Show parent
  #99
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by logicll ➑️
Right, ok.

So do you guys have a kit miked up kit all the time? Or do you just work with you got and get the kit up in an hour or 2?
No and no. It's not really rocket science. 2nd engineer and runner get in around 9 am. Setup mics and patch everything to outboard, then to large format console, (generally a SSL G in our case) for quick routing in the heat of the moment. Head engineer and drum tech stroll in around 11 am. 1-2 hours of tuning drums and getting sounds. Producer and band in at 1 pm. Slight changes to get individual sounds for specific song, recording by 1:30/2.

Keep in mind that the group working has probably worked together for 5 + years, so they will know each others likes and dislikes. Also generally you setup more then you need, so you can switch to different types of sounds on the fly. Know this does not apply to your situation, but just backing up the claim on not using a full day to get drum sounds.

Some form of above is generally how I see it go down, but is really besides the point. The original point was that everyone has had to cut back on how they are use to working, large and small. It sucks, don't like it either, but until things get better for music commerce it's how it is.

Again I remember the full setup days, but would say that is far from the norm these days. Even in LA. It sucks for large and small. The real question is why we are in this crappy situation, but that can not be discussed here.
Old 27th September 2012 | Show parent
  #100
Lives for gear
 
logicll's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Actually that sounds about right. Full setup, headphone routing for the whole band and other instruments setup for scratch tracks could be done with enough time to start tracking drums. SO..8 hours from nothing to setup. 4 hours of drum tracking.

I could live with that, but it's still not what happens here (5 songs tracked, all instruments) one day...lol
Old 27th September 2012
  #101
Lives for gear
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Yes, there are reasons for the mess. I can remember the early 90's--couldn't get any deals to close for a while there.

Now I am not sure whether the large old school studio process is portable to a smaller situation. That's your experiment to run to determine if there's a market of folks out there willing to pay for what you are positioning yourself to offer. The more you know about that market beforehand, the better able you will be to position yourself to sell what your potential customers want to buy. What you have may be entirely superior to what others offer, but if your potential customers don't realize it, then that's a problem.

A bit of history to illustrate: I think Chester Carlson invented the photocopy process because he saw making multiple copies of typed documents with carbon paper as wasteful. People made mistakes typing and had to throw away several sheets of paper at once. So he invented the photocopy machine and for quite some time, sales were poor. All these years later, who remembers carbon paper? But even though Carlson had a superior product, it took a while for buyers to catch on.
Old 27th September 2012
  #102
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
There used to be people at gas stations whose whole job was to pump gas into cars. Apparently, they were not as vital to the process as it seemed at the time.
A few weeks back I stepped into an elevator and there was an actual elevator operator on a stool in there. I thought it was cool until she took us to the wrong floor.
Old 27th September 2012 | Show parent
  #103
Gear Guru
 
joelpatterson's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyrocks ➑️
... who remembers carbon paper? ..
I remember! And I'm remembering cranking out carbon copies on a machine that had a roller and it grabbed up the sheets one by one, somehow, you kept spinning it and it would spew them out... and there was a semi-grotesque process where certain privileged teachers were allowed to primitively "etch-a-sketch" in some way visual copies from books and create these same purple-inky masters.

The light/dark contrasts in these last efforts was often quite poor, you'd end up with splotchy, barely legible mumbo-jumbo... for something like the text and stage directions to "A Midsummer Night's Dream" which was tiny, italicized fonts to start with... whatever else you can say, at least those days are behind us.
Old 28th September 2012 | Show parent
  #104
Lives for gear
 
logicll's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Yes, a frustrating slump..
Old 28th September 2012
  #105
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by logicll ➑️
Actually that sounds about right. Full setup, headphone routing for the whole band and other instruments setup for scratch tracks could be done with enough time to start tracking drums. SO..8 hours from nothing to setup. 4 hours of drum tracking.

I could live with that, but it's still not what happens here (5 songs tracked, all instruments) one day...lol
5 songs in a day... How do you do this without compromising not just quality, but also interest???

I recorded 3 full songs for a band one weekend. They were all pretty prepared too. By the end of the 2nd day we were all just ready to be done. If you try to get too much done in this day of instant-results (no rewind time on a pc, instant playback, no time to relax if you don't want it), you realize that breaks and down time is important within a recording date. Otherwise you truly are just burning out.

Even if you don't use real drums amps etc, its still a lot to ask to record multiple songs in a day unless its live off the floor.
Too much emotions in one day leaves most ppl lifeless by the time it's over.
Old 28th September 2012 | Show parent
  #106
Lives for gear
 
logicll's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
5 songs in a day... How do you do this without compromising not just quality, but also interest???
I know right!
Old 28th September 2012 | Show parent
  #107
Moderator
 
psycho_monkey's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by fooman ➑️
Please take my comments with grain of salt, as I'm small-time and aside from interning at one of the bigger mastering facilities in the country, I've not worked in the industry.

Things seem to have changed more and more in the last 10 years. People aren't expected to own a studio, they are expected to have turned a space within their home into a recording studio. I know you disagree with the effectiveness of this, but it's reality round here. And I think if you are working with unsigned/untoured bands, it's probably the same expectation.

And I do not keep my drums miced at all times. I need those mics for other jobs, and I need the space for other things as well. I've just gotten really good at having a few choice drumkit configs and micing setups to suit a project. I often spend an hour before the band shows up setting things up, making sure they can almost just walk in, warm up, get sounds, adjust mics/tuning/etc, and press record.

If you want to have choice spaces and have people agreeing to pay for them, you gotta get out of the small market I think.... or have bigger clients come to you. Seems like you would have trouble simply due to being so close to LA, as you said. You'd have to charge much less and be that much more of an awesome personality to have people come your way over the lights and stars of LA it sounds like.

Once again, please take my comments with the knowledge that I'm not in your shoes or your region so perhaps I'm wrong on all accounts
Very true.

At the low end, almost all rooms are owner/operator - it's what the market supports.

I put an ad looking for bands wanting to record at a great studio for free, and only needing to pay for me (I've got a few tryout days at different rooms to use) and the first comment I get is from some snotty 21yo complaining it's not 100% free! that's the mindset you're dealing with.

That said, I got some cool replies too...
Old 29th September 2012 | Show parent
  #108
Lives for gear
 
logicll's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
ok... so I did more research and a few towns over there are a couple studio that look nice in photos. The issue is who the hell would want to afford me+ the rate of the studio? How do you make it as an independent?
Old 30th September 2012
  #109
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
I've heard this a lot, and moreso lately when musicians are just as broke as can be due to the cost of living and whatnot.
'Man I like it here cause its so much more laid back and I don't feel like its costing me $25 to take a **** or smoke break. It's not intimidating to me or my wallet'

I hear that enough to make note of it when I'm selling my wares haha
Old 30th September 2012
  #110
Gear Maniac
 
Eclipse.Sound's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
So conclusion is obvious:
1. Sell your hardware
2. Buy some Good DAW , and softsynths
3. Lower your price.
= Profit.

And I Undestand your pain - i been working on some Physical-model sounds ( wich are not easy to make ) for Absynth 5 sound set - about 3.5 months and i've sold only 4 copies.

But for some reason people prefer sound sets with saw farting sounds wich are not hard to make, and not so ambitious.
Old 30th September 2012 | Show parent
  #111
Lives for gear
 
logicll's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
It's all so strange, because just as I hear broke bands that can't afford to make an album, on Facebook I know a ton of bands that are in studios making albums right now.

What I find the most frustrating....

A. "Mastering engineers" are mopping up! "So you charge bands 2k to run their songs through a Manely EQ?" OR Bands come to you so you can Master in the box using Ozone?

B. People trying to act like pros repeating "pro lingo", when you listen to their work samples it's terrible.



Quote:
1. Sell your hardware
2. Buy some Good DAW , and softsynths
3. Lower your price.
= Profit.
UUUUGG no way
Old 1st October 2012 | Show parent
  #112
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
I find this thread really interesting, hence my posting. I am always curious how other studio guys get their potential clients to hunker down and go full-tilt in this day and age where people can often do it themselves because many artists or cool with the ITB sound (guitar sims, BFD, synth bass, etc).

I think there is a line we all have to face if we run smaller studios (which may not be what the OP is doing, I've never really seen the room he works in or anything of that nature). That is, the line between doing what WE want vs. what the clients want tying into making a profit.

For example, we all want to mic a real guitar cab, but if the client wants to sound like Periphery and we don't own an ENGL amp (or AX FX, but that's another thread!), do we go out and rent.... or do we say "**** it" and go DI and use an affordable sim? One will get us completely there (assuming guitarist can play well). While the other gets us 75% of the way there, but that is actually completely ok with most clients. 75% makes us more money, easier to live off of... you get the idea. Clients still leave happy, but we the engineer feel ashamed or like we've cheated and could've done better.

So that line sucks, but we face it daily nowadays. Seems like the OP is unwilling to cross it and would rather spit on it. I can't say I blame him for doing so! I don't have the greatest gear for everything always, but I do my damnedest to make sure a rock band is playing real gear and rocking the **** out.
Old 1st October 2012
  #113
Lives for gear
 
ssaudio's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
It's all down to personality, work ethic and ingenuity.

Look at any industry and you'll always find a sizeable proportion of staff kicking their heels and tutting in disbelief at their bad luck and the incompetence of those above them; it never sounds pretty and is a complete turn off for everyone bar the similarly disaffected.

When advice is given in bucket loads and the mantra remains the same, it's time to move them on.

In my experience it's seldom really about money...
Old 1st October 2012 | Show parent
  #114
Lives for gear
 
logicll's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Based on the gear obsession here on GS I assume many are still miking up drums, amps ect... (right)?

.
ssaudio, I agree with you, but there are many dynamics to all of this. At this point I don't relate to most other engineers or bands, but I run into many hacks and it's rare to find people that are solid. I am sure that is true in any profession. I think my biggest sin is just being one person and ALWAYS the new guy in the room..
Old 1st October 2012 | Show parent
  #115
Lives for gear
 
ssaudio's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by logicll ➑️
At this point I don't relate to most other engineers or bands
Which is a situation you need to change pronto and the responsibility for is entirely in your own hands.
Persistently moaning about it here or elsewhere won't solve anything.
Old 1st October 2012 | Show parent
  #116
Gear Guru
 
joelpatterson's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Eventually, you'll probably get the urge for going... when the meadow grass is turning brown, all the empires falling down, and winter closing in.
Old 1st October 2012 | Show parent
  #117
Lives for gear
 
logicll's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Right, well things are a bit strange.
Old 1st October 2012 | Show parent
  #118
Lives for gear
 
logicll's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
COOL!
Old 1st October 2012
  #119
Lives for gear
 
ssaudio's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Making sweeping generalisations won't help either.

Were you making albums 15 years ago? I was, and 20 years before that too.

Making albums these days isn't 'dumbed down'. More challenging? Certainly!
We have to adapt and put our experience and ingenuity to good use.

Getting a gig in this industry is all about getting your foot in the door, and keeping it there. At the lowest level you need to make yourself useful and maybe even indispensable, if only for 5 minutes. At the upper levels it's all about fitting the profile and meeting spec.
Back in the day, unless you were at the local demo-studio level, you didn't deal with bands directly, you dealt with labels and management. Now we have to, and we have to offer management, marketing and career advice too - all skills that need to be learnt.

With wee baby bands, I offer them a 1 track freebie, recorded on location at their rehearsal space - 6 hours record time and however long I feel necessary back at my place - but I do the latter on my own.
I then give them the track and let them listen for a few days and then we meet - I explain what could be achieved under different conditions and scenarios, time-scales etc. They explain their personal stuff, finances etc....and, if an agreement can be made, off we go. So, I'm playing multiple roles there...99% of the time I talk the band out of doing an album, talk them into doing an EP and we do a wee deal where we'll do a few days pre-production in their rehearsal space and then record wherever we can afford over two days.
Will the results be any good? That depends on much, but one thing is for sure, I will ensure they get exactly what we all agreed on and they will be under no illusions.
Do a few of them successfully and you'll get a steady stream of work - not great money, but it all helps. You can also help them out with live sound, be an all round great/useful bloke.
If you don't want to aim that low, get a manager and let them bring the work in, but I gave that route up years ago - purely because I'd had enough of it, but if your profile is as good as you say, it's a viable route.
Old 1st October 2012 | Show parent
  #120
Gear Guru
 
Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by logicll ➑️
It's all so strange, because just as I hear broke bands that can't afford to make an album, on Facebook I know a ton of bands that are in studios making albums right now.

What I find the most frustrating....

A. "Mastering engineers" are mopping up! "So you charge bands 2k to run their songs through a Manely EQ?" OR Bands come to you so you can Master in the box using Ozone?

Things are crazy...


UUUUGG no way
I don't know too many mastering engineers who are "mopping up!". We are facing the same pressures as everyone else in the industry right now. More and more studios offering "mastering" and less and less people needing or wanting mastering due to the DIY craze that is sweeping the industry right now. Most mastering facilities have hundreds of thousand of dollars invested in their room and their equipment. If you figure that the "average" mastering session is about 6 hours long then you are saying that the mastering engineer is charging about $333.00 per hour which maybe close to what Gateway is charging but way over what the average mastering engineer charges for the same service.

AND just for the record there is a lot more to mastering than "running their songs through a Manely EQ".
πŸ“ Reply
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearspace Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…

Forum Jump
Forum Jump