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Bands don't understand what I am offering...
Old 24th September 2012 | Show parent
  #61
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logicll's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
CKREON said it best
Quote:
People on pursuit will NEVER acknowledge the value of someone who they don't clearly see as moving them closer to their fantasy end-goal. This means that getting them to pay for ANYTHING is nearly impossible unless they view you as a connection. Ironically, if they do think you are valuable, you can get them to pay you almost any amount. The best part is the end-results don't matter! The end-result for them is simply a name or a credit. This is why there is an influx of dirty sharks in the "industry" - because people pursuing fame are literally blinded, and easily manipulated out of things if you can present yourself favorably.
I either have to deal with broke local bands or get famous so I can "be a connection".
Old 25th September 2012 | Show parent
  #62
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by logicll ➑️

Perhaps the room and the "studio" are more important than the gear, but the locals are not even responding to the quality of my work, not the production or the mixing! I guess people here only have the effort to do demos and cal them albums.

I agree it's best to be humble, but I am offended by the click "vibe" of this scene.
I see what you are saying. What most bands i know of call "albums" i would call my "demo". Them: "Yeah, we are going to hole up and lay down an album . . ." Me: "On your old presonus converters with no LDC's at all and mixing ITB on Logic?", that sounds like a demo rig to me. ****, if that is what constitutes an album now i could have had 10 albums made by now. Its just a half-assed mode of thinking really. Some people resent that things are so expensive and convince themselves of bizarre notions.

Somebody said to me "I really wouldn't buy a tape-echo, i mean, i can get that sound with a plug in if i want. I really wouldn't buy a color preamp either, i figure i can get that sound with a plug in too if needed" Yeah and i can get a tone just as good as a Dumble with a plug in. Didn't you know, the plug in eliminates the need for any gear of any kind. Why get a U-67? I can make my sm58 sound like a U-67 with a plug in . . . What i want to know is if these bands/"artists" take the same half-assed approach to writing the music? The new generation is the "good enough" generation. That take was good enough, my guitar is tuned well enough - not perfect but close. I was almost singing on key. One OH mic is good enough. Old strings sound good enough. There is no desire for perfection with most people.

I could record in a studio that i could afford and that is "good enough" for most people. I could call the average recording that comes out of it my "album" but i want it perfect, as perfect as possible anyway. I want to do something great, i want it to take forever (seemingly) and i want to bust my butt to get it done so well that nothing could be improved ever. How is it even an "album" if corners were cut? I'd rather have no album and a demo than an album that is forgettable. I think of albums as final things, set it stone and unchangeable, so it has to be something i can live with forever. Life is too short to be mediocre . . . unless you are just messing around and really don't mean business. Really, it sounds cliche, but most people talk the talk but don't walk the walk. Yeah, they want to be a rock star with a big contact, they don't want to work hard to do it though. "Oh, you want to practice more than maybe once a week and for more than like 1 hour? Can't do it." "Oh, you want to actually like, do stuff like record and play shows? I can't miss out on going to bars and drinking with assholes, sorry".

It sounds like these people you are dealing with are in bands to be cool, not because they really feel like they have good music to make. I mean, ****, $50 and hour to get mixed on an SSL is a no brainer compared to some kid working ITB, like i said, if that is the case then i'll work ITB with mid-level gear in my walk-in closet rather than pay some jerk to get the same result for me. If they really did something stupid like that they deserve the results they get. If they don't know what a SSL is they don't deserve to be mixed on it It sounds like for $50 and hour you are giving people much more than other $50 an hour studios, but in a pinch do try lower rates. If people aren't really serious then they don't care. Them: "What do we care, we aren't trying to do this for day jobs" You: "Good, because your material sucks."

Plus, although you need the B&B money from them, what will really help your career is producing/recording a talented artist with potential, not a bunch of local scumbags, sorry to get presumptuous. I live outside of LA, the local bands are about 75% metal (at least), bad metal, 10% punk, 10% cover band, 5% reggae (bad reggae). Closer to LA, the bands become a plethora of "sound-alikes", we like band x so we sound basically exactly like band x but with much less talent and no good songs. I'm sure there are good "artists" around you can record, but you have to sift through a trench of arrogant poseurs to find them. Actual artists are so few and far between i'm not sure you could make a living holding out for talent only.
Old 25th September 2012 | Show parent
  #63
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by logicll ➑️
I guess my point is...>> Where is the middle ground and how to others "make it" living in the middle...? .
The musician middle class was killed off over the past decade. Until people recognize that and do something about it, it's not going to get better for a long time.

Sorry I don't have better advice. Best of luck!
Old 25th September 2012 | Show parent
  #64
Gear Guru
 
Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
I know that there are a lot of musicians that feel that they are being taken advantage of by people offering sub standard services for real money. Since there are no licensing agencies that certify a certain studio as being "professional" I guess it is the luck of the draw when it comes to choosing a studio to do their recording, mixing or mastering.

On the other side of the coin there are a lot of musicians who want champagne services on a beer budget. When they don't get what they want they get upset.

Until such time as there are certifications for studios and engineers it will be the same as it has always been.
Old 25th September 2012 | Show parent
  #65
Lives for gear
 
logicll's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I have been trying to wrap my head around all of this.
Old 25th September 2012 | Show parent
  #66
Gear Guru
 
Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by logicll ➑️
I have been trying to wrap my head around all of this. I am not trying to be egotistical, but when you get use to working at a certain level it's hard to back step.

Example... A few years ago I did a Reggae project, we are talking world famous, great players who influenced many. I even worked on a Sly and Robbie track! Real instruments, great players working fast capturing the vibes..

A month ago I visited the best producer in the area (that is the word on the street). He was doing a Reggae track, as I observed I thought to myself...

A. Why is he using all plugins and no "real" sounds or hardware?
B. Why is the bass on top of the beat and not deep in the pocket?
C. This guy is making bank tracking with all plugins doing "white person" "Reggae", he makes in a day what I make in a month..

I am just now realizing that I can swim with the big fishes, but my lack of networking/relationship skills have killed me.

A couple weeks ago I was talking to this person I know (in a signed band) about their new album, "cool" producer got paid a ton of cash to do their album... Album sounds ok, not bad, just not exciting.

Last year I mix an album similar style) that went off to be mastered by Tom Baker (30 Seconds to Mars, Papa Roach,Rob Zombie). Tom asked "who mixed this this is great!", the band just got a record deal last week.

And here I am being overlooked by the whole scene...

I suck at selling myself and everything I am about (great production, hardware, tape,) would work in L.A if I had a great manager and contacts. (well maybe).
Could I make a simple observation. Don't worry about what others are doing or not doing, that is counterproductive to getting work. Do what you do as well as you can do it and the word will spread. In the old days I was always worried about what all the other "mastering engineers" in this area were doing or not doing but a) I had no control over what they were doing b) what they did or did not do was really no concern of mine c)It was always bugging me and was not helpful to getting new clients.

I think you need to do some serious advertising but you need to have another professional, not yourself, do the wording of the advertising and get it around to places that musicians hang out like GC, Sam Ash, other music stores and venues were they play. I am sure that where you live there are lots of PR people who would be willing to do this or you could seek out a graduate student at a local college who is majoring in advertising or marketing and have him/her do the write up. Tell them the facts and let them do the promotion. They may also be able to figure out a better marketing plan since they are more into the mainstream of advertising and what works today.

Feeling sorry for your self and your lot in life may make you feel better but it may send a negative image to people you are trying to reach. FWIW

Best of luck!
Old 25th September 2012 | Show parent
  #67
Lives for gear
 
logicll's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
WOW that is a great idea!

I have had the strangest path through my career very strange.....
Old 25th September 2012 | Show parent
  #68
Lives for gear
 
blackcom's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Having a drum room with an in-house big high-end drumkit helped here..
Old 25th September 2012
  #69
Gear Addict
 
Freematik's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
So what exactly is wrong with the "whipping it out on the table" approach?
Old 25th September 2012 | Show parent
  #70
Gear Addict
 
Yeah, right...'s Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly_Rogers ➑️
I see what you are saying. What most bands i know of call "albums" i would call my "demo". Them: "Yeah, we are going to hole up and lay down an album . . ." Me: "On your old presonus converters with no LDC's at all and mixing ITB on Logic?", that sounds like a demo rig to me. ****, if that is what constitutes an album now i could have had 10 albums made by now. Its just a half-assed mode of thinking really. Some people resent that things are so expensive and convince themselves of bizarre notions.

Somebody said to me "I really wouldn't buy a tape-echo, i mean, i can get that sound with a plug in if i want. I really wouldn't buy a color preamp either, i figure i can get that sound with a plug in too if needed" Yeah and i can get a tone just as good as a Dumble with a plug in. Didn't you know, the plug in eliminates the need for any gear of any kind. Why get a U-67? I can make my sm58 sound like a U-67 with a plug in . . . What i want to know is if these bands/"artists" take the same half-assed approach to writing the music? The new generation is the "good enough" generation. That take was good enough, my guitar is tuned well enough - not perfect but close. I was almost singing on key. One OH mic is good enough. Old strings sound good enough. There is no desire for perfection with most people.

I could record in a studio that i could afford and that is "good enough" for most people. I could call the average recording that comes out of it my "album" but i want it perfect, as perfect as possible anyway. I want to do something great, i want it to take forever (seemingly) and i want to bust my butt to get it done so well that nothing could be improved ever. How is it even an "album" if corners were cut? I'd rather have no album and a demo than an album that is forgettable. I think of albums as final things, set it stone and unchangeable, so it has to be something i can live with forever. Life is too short to be mediocre . . . unless you are just messing around and really don't mean business. Really, it sounds cliche, but most people talk the talk but don't walk the walk. Yeah, they want to be a rock star with a big contact, they don't want to work hard to do it though. "Oh, you want to practice more than maybe once a week and for more than like 1 hour? Can't do it." "Oh, you want to actually like, do stuff like record and play shows? I can't miss out on going to bars and drinking with assholes, sorry".

It sounds like these people you are dealing with are in bands to be cool, not because they really feel like they have good music to make. I mean, ****, $50 and hour to get mixed on an SSL is a no brainer compared to some kid working ITB, like i said, if that is the case then i'll work ITB with mid-level gear in my walk-in closet rather than pay some jerk to get the same result for me. If they really did something stupid like that they deserve the results they get. If they don't know what a SSL is they don't deserve to be mixed on it It sounds like for $50 and hour you are giving people much more than other $50 an hour studios, but in a pinch do try lower rates. If people aren't really serious then they don't care. Them: "What do we care, we aren't trying to do this for day jobs" You: "Good, because your material sucks."

Plus, although you need the B&B money from them, what will really help your career is producing/recording a talented artist with potential, not a bunch of local scumbags, sorry to get presumptuous. I live outside of LA, the local bands are about 75% metal (at least), bad metal, 10% punk, 10% cover band, 5% reggae (bad reggae). Closer to LA, the bands become a plethora of "sound-alikes", we like band x so we sound basically exactly like band x but with much less talent and no good songs. I'm sure there are good "artists" around you can record, but you have to sift through a trench of arrogant poseurs to find them. Actual artists are so few and far between i'm not sure you could make a living holding out for talent only.
This is a very interesting thread.

Pretty much everyone posting here has good advice/information.

But everything Jolly Rogers says here is, imo & my experience, right on the money!! I could not put it better!

Good luck, Mike
Old 25th September 2012
  #71
Lives for gear
 
ionian's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freematik ➑️
So what exactly is wrong with the "whipping it out on the table" approach?

Because no matter how big yours is, someone will always have a bigger one or know how to use theirs better. It's a given.
Old 25th September 2012 | Show parent
  #72
Gear Maniac
 
eastsidetone's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freematik ➑️
So what exactly is wrong with the "whipping it out on the table" approach?
You are not selling your studio or your gear, you are selling yourself!

If you can't convince someone that you are worth working with without name dropping or Neumann waving then you really need to ask yourself why someone would want to record with you.

----------------------------------------------------------------
As for "whipping it out" it tends to leave a bad impression

Client's are lot like women (hell, half of them are!)

Women do not respond to guys who roll up in a Ferrari and say things like

"you should go out with me, I have dated several women who are in a much higher league then you and they thought I was awesome."
Old 26th September 2012 | Show parent
  #73
Lives for gear
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
A little name dropping, if believed, tends to give credentials for one's work. However, if the prospective customer doesn't believe it and thinks one is flat out lying, that tends to kill the deal.

If the prospective customer starts thinking that all your work for name acts was done somewhere else, that's not so good either when one is getting up and running. Customers are reluctant to turn loose of their cash and invest their time with someone they've never done business with. It's essential to get them past that initial level of discomfort.

Some people ask former customers to use their names in testimonials, ask for letters of reference, etc. What they really want to know is how using you is a benefit to them over using someone else.

The ideal is for a satisfied customer to tell someone else about your services. At that point, your customer is doing your selling for you.

If you are a great technician, but not so great at a sales, it could be worth it to link up with somebody who is great at sales, but maybe not so great a technician. Then help each other along.
Old 26th September 2012 | Show parent
  #74
Lives for gear
 
logicll's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Yes, I have been looking for a partner. There is a great building in town, but I can't afford it. There seems to be a great benefit in just being stable, moving around all the time has killed me. Getting established in one place.
Old 26th September 2012 | Show parent
  #75
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by logicll ➑️

Some bands that have expressed interest in working with me and re-thinking it because of my current location. L.A is the cool place to do an album and bands want to see the sights/party wit rock stars ect...
Maybe try advertising mixing. A lot of people record at home but want a professional mix and master, that might be the new trend. A friend of mine is signed to a well-know label, and although i imagine he can afford to do what he pleases he records all his work in his basement rather than pro studios, he does as far as i know take the tracks to studios to get mixed and mastered. If you did this you wouldn't have to invest in a huge tracking room and mics and things like that, maybe you know somebody with a good mixing room that you can use for cheap.

Also, what is your setup like exactly? Gear etc.? Just curious, that might allow for some better suggestions.

I have been looking for a studio to do an EP at for several months now. I booked several days with a fellow, he basically lied about what gear he actually had and several other things, really unprofessional or just unethical. I did 6 hours and canceled the rest of the sessions. I will probably hit him up for a cd of the tracks sometime. Point being, it was a waste of money and now i have to be careful about selecting a new studio.

Around LA, one current trend, is these sort-of down-on-their-luck ex-studio musicians setting up pretty unimpressive rigs in their living room or storage units and trying to name drop clients into their studio. They aren't looking to make good recordings for clients, they just want some quick cash. Pretty stupid, how far can you get without repeat business? I don't care if you played for Sting, you didn't [I]record[I] him.

I'm sure you're very good, but from a musicians standpoint you have to be really careful or you get screwed. Offer the best band in town 5 days free or something, if you record the best band in the area then others will follow.
Old 26th September 2012 | Show parent
  #76
Lives for gear
 
logicll's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
My mixing setup..

I still use Pro Tools 6 (mainly for editing), but I have some decent plugins (Oxford, Waves, ect..)

Pro Tools 6 > Hardware inserts>Apogee converters>Folcrom>"Neve" clone for makeup gain.

Mix on NS-10's
ProControl

Outboard...
Eventide H3000
Roland SRV-2000
Distressor
vintage 1176
CBS limiters
dbx 160x
Vintage Orban EQ
Red series EQ
Tape (for drum processing)

Those are the main pieces I use, I have way more bits and pieces.

Preamps;
Focusrite red series (the older model with the good transformers)
Avalon U5 & 737
Vintech 1272
Old 26th September 2012
  #77
Lives for gear
 
Sir Chris's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
**** it! If the local guys are doing DI this DI that, program drums, etc. You should just offer the same service at a lower rate that's more in line with the local guys. Only yours will sound better. Offer a premium rate for your hardware stuff.

And if u want to be an ass, after u track all DI, program drums etc. Have them come over to pick up the final mix BUT have a "premium mix" prepared. One which you re-amped and mixed OTB, etc and show them THAT!!. So they can hear the difference and consider spending the extra $$$.

Sent from my Nexus S 4G
Old 26th September 2012 | Show parent
  #78
Lives for gear
 
logicll's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Actually you may have a point. Educating people on what they are missing may be a god start.
Old 26th September 2012 | Show parent
  #79
Lives for gear
 
TobyToby's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
As I understand, you actually do not have a studio with a tracking room for bands?

Then you are a captain without a boat

After people know your name and your profession, at some point they probably asking you where your studio is located. Your answer should be an address and not a description how a band recording could be done in another rented studio.

Without studio rooms that cover the basic demands for a band recording and something that give your personality, your energy and your skills a proper home, your current position is in need of explanation and that makes things complicated and could leave people in a whiff of desperation.
It’s like being a chef who tries to sell lobsters without having a restaurant, a homeless with a bottle of champagne but no table, a pilot with only a flight simulator, a pimp without a brothel , . .

Just a very simplified snippet out of many ideas I would have:
First thing, I would try to find a studio partner, the right one with whom you are able to set up a proper band recording studio location. It would be ideally a guy who runs a life venue, a local with a reputation amongst musicians/bands. So potential studio clients are already there. On top of that, he will also have already established events, a marketing/promotion network, and other helpful local media connections that can be used/adjusted to the advantage of the studio, lots of tools and instruments and a base to be creative with. . . like establishing a Battle of the bands contests in the venue. The winner wins an EP recording, sponsored by a company (they will pay the production) . . you could offer live recordings on demand or could even offer bands song recordings /studio time instead of their gig wages. . as I said, it’s just a snippet from what would come to my mind
Old 26th September 2012 | Show parent
  #80
Lives for gear
 
logicll's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Yes, correct sir! I have a mixing room, but no tracking room. I do have "reduced rate" deals with a couple local studios, but they are lacking.
Old 26th September 2012 | Show parent
  #81
Lives for gear
 
NEWTON IN ORBIT's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by eastsidetone ➑️

----------------------------------------------------------------
As for "whipping it out" it tends to leave a bad impression

Client's are lot like women (hell, half of them are!)

Women do not respond to guys who roll up in a Ferrari and say things like

"you should go out with me, I have dated several women who are in a much higher league then you and they thought I was awesome."
Very true and wise.

Man, if you were near me, we'd probably be working together. I have agreed 100% w/ everything you have said in this thread.

This is EXTREMELY rare on the old internet.

Great post and
Best regards,
john
Old 26th September 2012 | Show parent
  #82
Lives for gear
 
NEWTON IN ORBIT's Avatar
Hey logicll, I forgot to follow up. Did you say you were a guitar player that just got off tour with some badass prog/ fusion band or something?

Just a thought, but...this may be a little intimidating to some clients just wanting to come in and record some good ol' rock and roll.

As in...not really sure I'd want Al Dimeola / Steve Vai producing my music. I love them but.... I think it might freak me out, and I would never feel my playing was up to snuff.

Don't get me wrong, I idolize the guy, and people with skills like him (as few as there are).

That said, if you are pushing this angle, that you somehow would be the best candidate as a producer for some of these bands because of your musical abilities, you may consider downplaying this a little. This can be intimidating, and also they may take it as a hint of boasting / bragging---inflated ego as well.

Not saying you don't deserve the respect for being a badass muso, just saying, these bands want to focus on how badass THEY are, not how badass you are. They need this confidence to make magic in the studio. This won't ever happen if they feel like they can't even measure up to the engineer behind the console.

Make them feel like they are gonna take over the world, and you are there to help in any way you can, and they will respond. Make them feel like heroes, and make it not about you.

It is after all, their music, and their time to shine no?

Just a thought.

john
Old 26th September 2012 | Show parent
  #83
Lives for gear
 
logicll's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
It's tough...
Old 26th September 2012
  #84
Moderator
 
psycho_monkey's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TobyToby ➑️
As I understand, you actually do not have a studio with a tracking room for bands?

Then you are a captain without a boat

After people know your name and your profession, at some point they probably asking you where your studio is located. Your answer should be an address and not a description how a band recording could be done in another rented studio.

Without studio rooms that cover the basic demands for a band recording and something that give your personality, your energy and your skills a proper home, your current position is in need of explanation and that makes things complicated and could leave people in a whiff of desperation.
It’s like being a chef who tries to sell lobsters without having a restaurant, a homeless with a bottle of champagne but no table, a pilot with only a flight simulator, a pimp without a brothel , . .

Just a very simplified snippet out of many ideas I would have:
First thing, I would try to find a studio partner, the right one with whom you are able to set up a proper band recording studio location. It would be ideally a guy who runs a life venue, a local with a reputation amongst musicians/bands. So potential studio clients are already there. On top of that, he will also have already established events, a marketing/promotion network, and other helpful local media connections that can be used/adjusted to the advantage of the studio, lots of tools and instruments and a base to be creative with. . . like establishing a Battle of the bands contests in the venue. The winner wins an EP recording, sponsored by a company (they will pay the production) . . you could offer live recordings on demand or could even offer bands song recordings /studio time instead of their gig wages. . as I said, it’s just a snippet from what would come to my mind
I'm not sure I agree.. Does the OP want to run a commercial room and be a studio manager, or be an engineer producer?

Only the top top guys have their own top notch rooms. Everyone else generally has a production room, and rents rooms for bed tracks and large scale tracking. That's what you do when you're a freelance producer/engineer - you really don't want to be having to cover the studio rent by having to work with anyone who'll have you.
Old 26th September 2012
  #85
70% Coffee, 30% Beer
 
Doc Mixwell's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
"bands don't understand what I am offering"

educate them

take it or leave it

your choice

if they don't get it, there are others that will
Old 26th September 2012
  #86
Gear Guru
 
Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
To the OP

TODAY Stop wining and get off your A$$ and get some work in. If you spent half as much time trying to get business as trying to convince everyone you are so good you would be busy as he!!. - That is what my mentor would tell me.
Old 26th September 2012 | Show parent
  #87
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by logicll ➑️
I feel stupid trying to explain to a band why I can't setup a drum kit in a hour and start tracking.. At my old job we budgeted a day (1k) just for drum setup. Sometimes we would get a few keeper drum takes the same day (if we were lucky)...
Unfortunately times are changing. Maybe it's been awhile since you worked in LA? I can remember the drum setup days, but to be honest even on the biggest projects, this doesn't go down too often anymore, i.e. even the big guys have had to adjust.

Another example is even the biggest producers now generally have their own studio and in house staff. No money, on even the biggest projects, to rent out a studio for 2k a day.
Old 26th September 2012
  #88
Gear Addict
 
Zooey's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Talking to an engineer who has fabulous outboard and a multitrack tape machine but no tracking room is kind of a like auditioning a brilliant drummer who doesn't own a car.
Old 26th September 2012 | Show parent
  #89
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zooey ➑️
Talking to an engineer who has fabulous outboard and a multitrack tape machine but no tracking room is kind of a like auditioning a brilliant drummer who doesn't own a car.
Well to be fair it wasn't the case until recently. Engineer and studio use to be seen as separate expenses. Unfortunately these days they are seen as a combo to most.
Old 27th September 2012 | Show parent
  #90
Lives for gear
 
logicll's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
First.. arrowood101 are you saying fewer people are micing drums for projects?
Is recording with actual microphones going away?? lol



OK, I am going to get back to work..
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