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What has happened to Digidesign? Redux
Old 20th November 2009
  #1
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🎧 15 years
What has happened to Digidesign? Redux

(Since the responses forced my initial thread to be closed - for whatever reason - I thought I'd open it back up, and hopefully it will stay in bounds this time. Certainly it wouldn't have been closed because a member voiced his "opinion..." That would be Orwellian)

So like I was saying, as the company grows, customer service slows. I was a huge - HUGE - ProTools fanboy for nearly two decades. I know the company very well, but it's not the same today. I'm floored, and saddened, by the new monetarily-focused enterprise. Capitalism at work you say? No, it's not even remotely that simple. They're not the power or cable company. There's no monopoly. Logic is stepping up to the plate and all my coworkers are beginning to learn it (some already know and use it) so that we can convert. Can they afford this arrogance, and negligence?

But I have to say this about the other thread which was closed: a couple people pointed out the increasing growth of negative Digi threads on GS, but rather than take the logical angle that there's something happening to cause this - something going wrong - they've tagged it as increasing noise which makes it only less relevant. LESS relevant... That's a bizarre level of denial to me.
Old 20th November 2009
  #2
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
It is bizarre, the silence is deafening.....
Old 20th November 2009 | Show parent
  #3
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marcpl's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
so use logic!
back to silence.
Old 20th November 2009 | Show parent
  #4
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tamasdragon's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Probably your thread is closed, because gearslutz is overflowed by the digibashing threads. I do not say that you have not problem with the company, altough my experience is different.
But please take into account that this board may not need a different digithread daily.
Old 20th November 2009 | Show parent
  #5
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamasdragon ➑️
But please take into account that this board may not need a different digithread daily.
That may be true - I don't pay attention so I don't feel that there are too many.
Old 20th November 2009 | Show parent
  #6
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcpl ➑️
so use logic!
back to silence.
I've installed it on a few machines already and we're all (my coworkers and I) learning it. I have a mint invested in Digi hardware/software, so it's not quite that easy.

Hence this thread, more or less asking if this company is expected to get better or worse.
Old 20th November 2009 | Show parent
  #7
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by elambo ➑️
I have a mint invested in Digi hardware/software, so it's not quite that easy.

Hence this thread, more or less asking if this company is expected to get better or worse.
And for folks on more limited budgets it is "just" as important as those who have "a mint invested."

Also, IMO, it is most useful when considering these kind of threads to focus on truly viable and ideal solutions and hope they listen. Encouragement is always more effective than soliciting defensiveness, as well as being totally honest regarding negative experiences; just not to get too jaded, fatalistic and accusatory about it.
Old 20th November 2009 | Show parent
  #8
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by princeplanet ➑️
It is bizarre, the silence is deafening.....
I would think getting Protools for Snow Leopard and Windows 7 would keep them busy for the next 3-4 months (plus throw in Xmas and Thanksgiving holidays)
They have 6 Platforms to test for plus all the Digi plug-ins Plus reprogramming drivers for all the hardware interfaces- no small task.
Old 20th November 2009
  #9
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Nash_Dred's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by elambo ➑️
But I have to say this about the other thread which was closed: a couple people pointed out the increasing growth of negative Digi threads on GS, but rather than take the logical angle that there's something happening to cause this - something going wrong - they've tagged it as increasing noise which makes it only less relevant. LESS relevant... That's a bizarre level of denial to me.
I would take these threads more seriously if anyone ever brought up any new points.

1) LE lacks features that other software offers: delay compensation, track freeze, offline bounce, etc. If these things are essential to your workflow, buy something else.

2) Pro Tools support has supposedly gone downhill, but this is not my experience. They certainly support PT better than Apple supports Logic. As far as Steinberg I have heard good things, but no first hand experience. I used to do tech support, and I find that most people who call haven't ever cracked open a manual. It's really not that difficult, and at least 90% "bugs" end up being operator error.

3) Pro Tools HD is overpriced. Lots of things are. Big deal.

I would argue that the "something that's happening" is that more and more amateurs are signing up for GS accounts.
Old 20th November 2009 | Show parent
  #10
Gear Guru
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by elambo
a couple people pointed out the increasing growth of negative Digi threads on GS, but rather than take the logical angle that there's something happening to cause this - something going wrong - they've tagged it as increasing noise which makes it only less relevant. LESS relevant... That's a bizarre level of denial to me.
it only looks like denial because you overestimate the intelligence of the posters, and underestimate the level of Sour Grapes involved when a strong industry standard costs more.

You know the old joke about how you only "rent" beer? Well you only "rent" your computer crap.

Want to have your mind eased about the future of your DAW company? Stop thinking of it as an 'investment'!

Mics are an investment, monitors and room treatment are an investment, musical instruments are an investment. Computer crap is an operating expense.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tamasdragan
gearslutz is overflowed by the digibashing threads.
badabing!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nati_Dred ➑️
I would take these threads more seriously if anyone ever brought up any new points.
badaboom!
Old 20th November 2009 | Show parent
  #11
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🎧 15 years
These threads prove that pro tools is over-rated... Kinda like a lot of music out there. Gets real popular and trend then people get burned out on it and move on to better things he he... but it's OK to try to keep the fire burning.
But it's the INDUSTRY STANDARD! What industry? Everything is moving into peoples back rooms and basements... all for the better IMO! Overpriced hyped up industry studios that can't give the results of a personal studio! They have to pay for those PT rigs and guy's are doing just as good if not better work on other native DAW's..
When I went to the Arts Institute they tried making me actually buy PT's for my classes. I used to BS the instructors into thinking I was using PT's and everyone was just floored on the quality that my PT's mixes had... yeah, if they only knew it was Digital Performer they would have laughed me out of the place!
Old 20th November 2009
  #12
Lives for gear
 
25ghosts's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by elambo ➑️
(Since the responses forced my initial thread to be closed - for whatever reason - I thought I'd open it back up, and hopefully it will stay in bounds this time. Certainly it wouldn't have been closed because a member voiced his "opinion..." That would be Orwellian)

So like I was saying, as the company grows, customer service slows. I was a huge - HUGE - ProTools fanboy for nearly two decades. I know the company very well, but it's not the same today. I'm floored, and saddened, by the new monetarily-focused enterprise. Capitalism at work you say? No, it's not even remotely that simple. They're not the power or cable company. There's no monopoly. Logic is stepping up to the plate and all my coworkers are beginning to learn it (some already know and use it) so that we can convert. Can they afford this arrogance, and negligence?

But I have to say this about the other thread which was closed: a couple people pointed out the increasing growth of negative Digi threads on GS, but rather than take the logical angle that there's something happening to cause this - something going wrong - they've tagged it as increasing noise which makes it only less relevant. LESS relevant... That's a bizarre level of denial to me.
I find digidesign to be the most responsive DAW/hardware maker, I have ever dealt with. The DTS chimes in all the time over on the DUC. I dont share your opinion about them at all. Now, had you said APPLE and Logic... I would concur and that multiple times. Even if you get thru to Logic Tec Support the so-called expert on the other end aint got NO CLUEs about the app he is representing.
Old 20th November 2009 | Show parent
  #13
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1 Review written
🎧 10 years
I'm surprised no one mentioned the fact that Digidesign and M-Audio are now owned by Avid.
I used to deal with Digi several years ago as a department manager at a music retailer, and the experience left me with a negative attitude about the brand. I currently use Nuendo and don't miss PT. If someone wants to remix one of my Nuendo projects they can import the WAV files and have at it. When I am asked to mix a project recorded on PT I do the reverse.
Old 20th November 2009 | Show parent
  #14
Gear Nut
 
tmrstudio's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq ➑️
You know the old joke about how you only "rent" beer? Well you only "rent" your computer crap.

Want to have your mind eased about the future of your DAW company? Stop thinking of it as an 'investment'!

Mics are an investment, monitors and room treatment are an investment, musical instruments are an investment. Computer crap is an operating expense.




badabing!



badaboom!
This is true in a twisted sort of way.
Old 20th November 2009 | Show parent
  #15
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by newrigel ➑️
These threads prove that pro tools is over-rated...
The ONLY people who would EVER call PT HD over rated are (99%) people who never worked with it...

PT LE - aint over rated either, H*** it aint even under rated because it aint rating at all. Reason, it sucks. Ad ADC to it and its good but the interfaces interacting with LE are meant as a taunting joke...

PT HD - Industry Standard, and there is a very good reason for that. Like I said most people down playing the power of PRotools|HD are people who cant afford it and keep telling them selves they dont need to afford it.... Funny thing is, first chance they get after making a little loot, they run off purchasing PT HD.
Old 20th November 2009 | Show parent
  #16
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ears2thesky ➑️
I'm surprised no one mentioned the fact that Digidesign and M-Audio are now owned by Avid.
I used to deal with Digi several years ago as a department manager at a music retailer, and the experience left me with a negative attitude about the brand. I currently use Nuendo and don't miss PT. If someone wants to remix one of my Nuendo projects they can import the WAV files and have at it. When I am asked to mix a project recorded on PT I do the reverse.
They've been owned by AVID since ages...
Old 20th November 2009 | Show parent
  #17
Gear Maniac
 
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by newrigel ➑️
These threads prove that pro tools is over-rated...
Nope. This thread proves nothing. As long as talk is cheap, there will always be haters.
Old 20th November 2009 | Show parent
  #18
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latestflavor's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
sorry, so your question is.... what happened to digidesign, right? oh, that's all, whew. next time you see someone illegally download you could probably trace it back to why you asked this question in the first place. if recorded music has no real business model, what is going to move the technology anyways?

besides that, a long series of unfortunate events. not any different than many other companies experience in a highly competitive and technologically shifting market. digi is probably the best thing avid has going, thanks to m-audio. PTHD is a product in maturity or decline, it is a closed end hardware system (that mostly runs within a competitor's own closed end system, the mac) in shrinking high end niche market. kinda f-d up. if that isn't enough, Moore's Law in the native market is continually working against its flagship product.

consumer (or worse) and prosumer is where the growth dollars are.

profits that grow are worth much more than those that don't, because you get a higher multiple on your stock. you must understand this before anything else, it is the key to everything in the capitalistic society. skip the following paragraph if you wish.

Here is an investing 101 lesson. Rough numbers Apple has $6bn in net income and is worth $160bn, say 26x what it earns. Microsoft made $13bn and is worth $236b or 18x what it earns. A very slow but steady growing company might make 6x. (avid is currently not profitable, but might be somewhere in between) You get the point. Growth is where the capital goes, to those people whom make it "rain". A higher valuation means those companies can make better acquisitions, give more stock options to the best and brightest, and so forth. This is how it works. Apple had a nice valuation that led it to gobble up Emagic and we see where that has gone. Digi was lucky to get M-Audio. Sorry if that comes off basic or preachy, i just realize how many people don't know what, besides hard work and ingenuity, made the USA a superpower.

so if you can't make it rain with PTHD, you mine the PT brand to put an MBox on every desk you can. you don't want to lose the perception of the PT brand, but you don't need to overdevelop just to push Mackie style crap into every 17 year old kids bedroom.

sure, Avid could go on and allocate huge amounts of resources to a product that is dwarfed by its competitors, or they can mine the **** of of the brand to sell a ton of crap at best buy. remember, the great people it took to make PT into a once dominating force are not going to necessarily be the best people to ***** out the brand (oh sorry, that's "leverage the brand" in corporate babble) into things like, say, the next Recording Hero game (I just made that up). "Where you get to record and hang and party with your favorite bands in the studio" (digi should pitch that one to Take Two.... the secret locked scenes to bang wannabe model groupies, maybe watch Mick and Bowie do lines and bone each other, or Suge shake down some clients over the studio balcony).

After all, what's the hottest product driving traffic at guitar center? well, its a toy. 'nuff said.

investors don't care if they are investing in soap or PTHD or toys. they don't care what the music sounds like either.

will it get better or worse? lets hope for the sake of competition it gets much better.

but i'm not quite certain who leads the innovation in the market from here, if in fact it really warrants much. and i think the real answer to your question. (typical new york conclusion)
Old 20th November 2009 | Show parent
  #19
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nati_Dred ➑️
I would take these threads more seriously if anyone ever brought up any new points.

1) LE lacks features that other software offers: delay compensation, track freeze, offline bounce, etc. If these things are essential to your workflow, buy something else.

2) Pro Tools support has supposedly gone downhill, but this is not my experience. They certainly support PT better than Apple supports Logic. As far as Steinberg I have heard good things, but no first hand experience. I used to do tech support, and I find that most people who call haven't ever cracked open a manual. It's really not that difficult, and at least 90% "bugs" end up being operator error.

3) Pro Tools HD is overpriced. Lots of things are. Big deal.

I would argue that the "something that's happening" is that more and more amateurs are signing up for GS accounts.
HAHAHA
YEP!

I think people are pissed they can't download Protools HD (and use it with any hardware) from a torrent site - Like they can with Logic
and use a cracked serial number
Old 20th November 2009 | Show parent
  #20
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by newrigel ➑️
These threads prove that pro tools is over-rated... Kinda like a lot of music out there. Gets real popular and trend then people get burned out on it and move on to better things he he... but it's OK to try to keep the fire burning.
But it's the INDUSTRY STANDARD! What industry? Everything is moving into peoples back rooms and basements... all for the better IMO! Overpriced hyped up industry studios that can't give the results of a personal studio! They have to pay for those PT rigs and guy's are doing just as good if not better work on other native DAW's..
When I went to the Arts Institute they tried making me actually buy PT's for my classes. I used to BS the instructors into thinking I was using PT's and everyone was just floored on the quality that my PT's mixes had... yeah, if they only knew it was Digital Performer they would have laughed me out of the place!
Very good points.
Old 20th November 2009
  #21
Deleted 1a30a04
Guest
i would suggest this thread be moved to the "Moan Zone"
Old 20th November 2009 | Show parent
  #22
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mykhal c's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nati_Dred ➑️
I would argue that the "something that's happening" is that more and more amateurs are signing up for GS accounts.
nice one
Old 20th November 2009 | Show parent
  #23
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Guest
So, as far as features vs market share with PT, I take it that less is more. Limited feature set at reduced $$ is translating to a larger market share. They are actually going a$$ backwards with the introduction of PT Essential - even less features/capabilities - dangling the carrot for the newcomers.
Old 21st November 2009 | Show parent
  #24
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmarkham ➑️
i would suggest this thread be moved to the "Moan Zone"
I suggest at least 30 more digi whiner threads
Old 21st November 2009 | Show parent
  #25
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chucks ➑️
So, as far as features vs market share with PT, I take it that less is more. Limited feature set at reduced $$ is translating to a larger market share. They are actually going a$$ backwards with the introduction of PT Essential - even less features/capabilities - dangling the carrot for the newcomers.
They already have 80% plus market share
Old 21st November 2009 | Show parent
  #26
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elambo's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Thanks to all those who responded with irrelevant remarks about too much anti-Digi noise on GS. If only you could smell your own irony. Now if you'd actually had something to contribute...

The funny thing about these threads, which I'm only now seeing in action, is that they quickly lose their potential for harvesting actual useful dialogue due to the side-liners who take it upon themselves to tell others why they should or should not think a certain way about this issue, and assume that their own personal experiences with Digidesign are universal. As sad as that simpleton's mentality is, it's also pretty hilarious sometimes. I'm often amazed at the way some can find justification for their statements, and imagine they even believe what they say, but I feel a bit sorry for the fear they're living with. I guess a lot of people love to see their name in lights, even when they're making fools of themselves, so these types of threads will always grow out of control.

But come one... the IRONY of it all... Wow!

25 posts and almost nothing about the original question. You'd think the title was, "Just type something. Anything."

I'd appreciate anyone who has actual insight, or an opinion, related to the topic. I get the "Digi is great" concept so there's no need to chime in with more of that -- I waved that flag for years myself, until I ran across very serious problems with Digidesign software, denial of the errors and no plans to fix them, claims which have turned out to be plain lies, rudeness, false accusations, etc. All of these things are new within the last few years, hence my post.

For the record, this has nothing to do with ADC. I'm using TDM. However, those who gripe about ADC deserve the right to express their opinion as well.
Old 21st November 2009 | Show parent
  #27
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elambo's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nati_Dred ➑️
I would argue that the "something that's happening" is that more and more amateurs are signing up for GS accounts.
This is the only comment that seems to need addressing.

N.D. - you do realize that there's no correlation between the number of amateurs on GS and any problems inside of Digidesign, right? It's obvious now, right? You can see how these lines could never cross. Now if you're trying to steer this into a correlation of Digi bashing and amateur GS members, of course that's true, but you know that this is about the company Digidesign, not the threads on GS. As much as people would like to make this about the threads on GS, it's not that thread.

I just want to be clear since someone else thought that they agreed with the correlation you'd tried to make. And I'm not trying to be a smart ass - I assume you're joking, but some others don't get it.
Old 21st November 2009 | Show parent
  #28
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barryjohns's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
This is a free country and you can post as many threads about Digidesign as you want. Good or Bad. Those that don't like it, why do you involve yourself in the thread? Just pass over it. New threads about the same old thing are always going to come up and be discussed over and over; new people join the forum every day. It's real easy to ensure that you don't have to pay attention to threads that are of no interest to you, don't go into the thread. Simple. I don't know what's worse, the arrogance of telling people what they can and can not post on this site or the idiots that do "re/re/re on craigslist telling people why the person selling something is an idiot or clueless, why does this happen? If you don't agree, move on. Why is that so hard?

To the original poster, yes Digi sucks these days. What talent they actually took the time to recruit has left for better companies; Max, Scott, others...

Digi has an identity problem, Avid’s stock is in the tank, and they have hung on to a grossly outdated product for way too long. Yes, I have PTHD, I love it, but it's stupid what it cost me and I paid a fraction that most did because I did my homework.
Old 21st November 2009 | Show parent
  #29
Deleted User
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by elambo ➑️
Thanks to all those who responded with irrelevant remarks about too much anti-Digi noise on GS. If only you could smell your own irony. Now if you'd actually had something to contribute...

The funny thing about these threads, which I'm only now seeing in action, is that they quickly lose their potential for harvesting actual useful dialogue due to the side-liners who take it upon themselves to tell others why they should or should not think a certain way about this issue, and assume that their own personal experiences with Digidesign are universal. As sad as that simpleton's mentality is, it's also pretty hilarious sometimes. I'm often amazed at the way some can find justification for their statements, and imagine they even believe what they say, but I feel a bit sorry for the fear they're living with. I guess a lot of people love to see their name in lights, even when they're making fools of themselves, so these types of threads will always grow out of control.

But come one... the IRONY of it all... Wow!

25 posts and almost nothing about the original question. You'd think the title was, "Just type something. Anything."

I'd appreciate anyone who has actual insight, or an opinion, related to the topic. I get the "Digi is great" concept so there's no need to chime in with more of that -- I waved that flag for years myself, until I ran across very serious problems with Digidesign software, denial of the errors and no plans to fix them, claims which have turned out to be plain lies, rudeness, false accusations, etc. All of these things are new within the last few years, hence my post.

For the record, this has nothing to do with ADC. I'm using TDM. However, those who gripe about ADC deserve the right to express their opinion as well.

You're the one who started with the editorial. Sorry you're not getting what you want.
Old 21st November 2009 | Show parent
  #30
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KEYBEEETSSS's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 25ghosts ➑️

PT LE - aint over rated either, H*** it aint even under rated because it aint rating at all. Reason, it sucks. Ad ADC to it and its good but the interfaces interacting with LE are meant as a taunting joke...

PT HD - Industry Standard, and there is a very good reason for that. Like I said most people down playing the power of PRotools|HD are people who cant afford it and keep telling them selves they dont need to afford it.... Funny thing is, first chance they get after making a little loot, they run off purchasing PT HD.
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