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I nearly just cried.
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #31
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GordZilla's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by olivia_nb ➡️
it's all horses for courses you know? I like The Beatles, I think they're fairly amazing in fact, however I really don't enjoy listening to them, they're kind of boring to me. I do love Portishead and really slow dark stuff like that and that would probably put most people to sleep... so I am certainly not claiming that everyone should think SD is boring or uninteresting. They get a lot of love on GS and I have never understood it. People that don't care for SD tend to get treated like lunatics around here, just showing that educated fans of music can dislike something and even not see the artistic merit in it. At the same time I'm sure you can think of a few classic painters who bore the **** out of you, probably the same for some genius classical composers or film artuers. Doesn't lessen SD's contributions to music as a whole.
To each is own, for sure

My hat's off to you there amigo for not sugar coatin' your opinions, yet still respecting (and acknowledging) the validity of SD's contributions.

Myself... I find that most of the stuff that has been recorded in the last 8-10 years is really boring.
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #32
Lives for gear
 
GordZilla's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman ➡️
can't say I feel SD has talent either. Opinions eh?
Can I see your fishing license please...hahaha

Reminds me of the ol' sayin'.... opinions are like assholes... everyone has one

Cheers mate
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #33
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Nolet's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by drumzealot ➡️
Are these comments decrying Steely Dan even worthy of a response? They exhibit a lack of understanding of the things that make Steely Dan so good: sophisticated harmony, clever lyrics which draw from a deep understanding of literature, art and philosophy, performances from the best of the best musicians, nearly flawless production/engineering, clever arrangements, fusion of various styles, etc.
.
Wow...you're actually summing up why I hate Steely Dan so much!
Except for the harmony and arrangements bit...
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #34
Gear Maniac
 
My Tiny Circus's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Steely Dan have been sampled a lot. See the list below. I think they've written many excellent songs.

Sampling is not necessarily bad, I quite like I Know Where It's At by All Saints and Becker and Fagen got a writing credit on that.

Some of the worst crimes against sampling do seem to come from Kanye West, an artist who's appeal is lost on me and this is not because I'm old and white, I like lots of other rap and R&B artists but the hype to talent ratio seems decidely askew with Kanye.



Sample Spotters: Xampled: Steely Dan
"Peg" (I know I love you better)
De la Soul: Eye Know
Goldie: In the Land of Funk
Joe Public: Live and learn
Pizzicato 5: This year's girl #2
"FM"
3rd Bass: No Static at All
3rd Bass: Peg
De la Soul: Eye Know
"I.G.Y. (What a wonderful world" (Donald Fagen solo)
Benjamin Diamond: In your arms
"Green Earrings"
Zimbabwe Legit: Legitimate Mix
Ice Cube: Don't Trust 'Em
Organized Konfusion: Walk into the Sun
"The Fez"
All Saints: I Know Where it's At
Brothers Like Outlaw: Trapped into Darkness
"Black Cow"
MF Doom: Gas Drawlz
Lord Tariq & Peter Gunz: Deja Vu
Micehl'le: Daydreaming
Porn Theatre Ushers: Me & Him
Tatyana Ali: Daydreamin'
Tone-Loc: Cutting Rhythms
"Do it again"
Deacon Blue: Silverlake
The Art of Noise: Kiss
"Showbiz Kids"
Super Furry Animals: The Man Don't Give a F--k
"Home at Last"
Big Shug: Stripped and Pistol Whipped
"The Royal Scam"
Kruder & Dorfmeister: Look up here
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #35
Lives for gear
 
drumzealot's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by olivia_nb ➡️
it's all horses for courses you know? I like The Beatles, I think they're fairly amazing in fact, however I really don't enjoy listening to them, they're kind of boring to me. I do love Portishead and really slow dark stuff like that and that would probably put most people to sleep... so I am certainly not claiming that everyone should think SD is boring or uninteresting. They get a lot of love on GS and I have never understood it. People that don't care for SD tend to get treated like lunatics around here, just showing that educated fans of music can dislike something and even not see the artistic merit in it. At the same time I'm sure you can think of a few classic painters who bore the **** out of you, probably the same for some genius classical composers or film artuers. Doesn't lessen SD's contributions to music as a whole.
Treated like lunatics for a reason. It’s not really a tenable opinion.

Of course, it’s OK to not like something, but I've yet to encounter a well informed opinion against Steely Dan. Most of the criticism doesn't reflect a deep understanding of music, or have any thing intelligent to back it up. Opinions are only worth the arguments that back them up and so far I have yet to encounter an opinion against SD that is worth much.

I don’t see how anyone who is “educated” in music cannot at least appreciate SD. I mean, ****, the performances on those records alone are among the best of the genre. Steve Gadd was sight reading the chart for Aja when He played those amazing grooves and licks. And Wayne’s solo…boring? Thee Bernard Purdie shuffle, boring? To hang a “boring” sign on that is to hang an “ignorant” sign on oneself.

The only criticism I’ve heard that has any merit is that they are a bit pompous, a little ivory tower-ish in their lyrics. One gets the feeling they are trying to prove how well read they are.

Regarding art: Yes there are some great painters that I have found boring…until I learned about the context from which they came. I used to find Monet boring, pretty but boring, until I learned how revolutionary the impressionist movement was, how artists were banned from many of the mainstream galleries for being too radical. Monet radical? I thought of impressionism as milquetoast. Boy was I wrong! My negative opinion was founded in ignorance. Same thing with Dutch artists of the late medieval and renaissance periods. Thought it was boring. Then I learned a few things about it. It still is not my favorite genre, but I could not call it boring, especially around people who know art. Talk about asking for a thumping. Same with Op Art. Used to think it was boring, then I read some books, learned that these artists are searching for a universal iconography, an a-cultural language in which all people might find a similar meaning. I used to not appreciate the relationship between music and art in Paul Klee’s work, until I read his book. The only artist that I don’t appreciate and know something about is Jenny Holzer. But that’s because I wouldn’t call what she does visual art. She just takes brief, overt social commentary, makes the letters big or shiny and then pastes it up in public.

Any more, whenever I find myself not liking something, I’ll usually temper those thoughts until I learn something about it. And 99% of the time, once I understand something I at least appreciate it if not love it. So, whenever I encounter criticism of a great artist I wonder how much that person really knows. Most of the time it’s not very much. It’s funny how ignorance and strong negative opinions make strange bedfellows.
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #36
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Nolet's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by drumzealot ➡️
I don’t see how anyone who is “educated” in music cannot at least appreciate SD. I mean, ****, the performances on those records alone are among the best of the genre. Steve Gadd was sight reading the chart for Aja when He played those amazing grooves and licks. And Wayne’s solo…boring? Thee Bernard Purdie shuffle, boring? To hang a “boring” sign on that is to hang an “ignorant” sign on oneself.

.

Dude, seriously, get off your high horse. I can see you like Steely Dan a lot. We get it. But calling people ignorant of/in music because they find SD boring...common....

So Steve Gadd was sight reading some chart? So what, it still sounds like **** music to me...music my grandma would listen to...
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #37
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drumzealot's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nolet ➡️
Dude, seriously, get off your high horse. I can see you like Steely Dan a lot. We get it. But calling people ignorant of/in music because they find SD boring...common....

So Steve Gadd was sight reading some chart? So what, it still sounds like **** music to me...music my grandma would listen to...
No high horse, I just enjoy intelligent dialog. Haven't heard any yet.
All opinions may be subject to a moan-zone challenge.
Sounds like your grandma has good taste.
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #38
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Nolet's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by drumzealot ➡️
No high horse, I just enjoy intelligent dialog. Haven't heard any yet.

Ok, here we go then:

I find SD to be contrived and lacking of any spontaneous emotion. Actually, I think that the lack of emotion, the coldness, precision, whatever you may call it, is my main objection. Also,they tend to have this scholarly / Mystic / Arty atmosphere and image they like to project. That's great, until you hear there music: it's EXTREMELY middle of the road cocktail lounge pop. No rough edges, no transgressions of any sort, it is about as non-avant garde as you can get, which kinda clashes with their whole image.

But the final point is that it just sounds like grandma music made by ugly guys with funny beard and weird glasses....oh crap...slipped back into caveman mode again...

Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #39
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drumzealot's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nolet ➡️
Ok, here we go then:

I find SD to be contrived and lacking of any spontaneous emotion. Actually, I think that the lack of emotion, the coldness, precision, whatever you may call it, is my main objection. Also,they tend to have this scholarly / Mystic / Arty atmosphere and image they like to project. That's great, until you hear there music: it's EXTREMELY middle of the road cocktail lounge pop. No rough edges, no transgressions of any sort, it is about as non-avant garde as you can get, which kinda clashes with their whole image.

But the final point is that it just sounds like grandma music made by ugly guys with funny beard and weird glasses....oh crap...slipped back into caveman mode again...

Thank you, Nolet.
Perhaps grandma is cooler than you know?
I actually find much of their music exciting. Like the bridge in Josie or the outro to Aja. The Josie bridge is simple but the groove is so deep. And BTW those 16th notes are a trash can lid played by Jim Keltner.
I can see how it might appear to be too smooth and safe. But, like impressionism, once you dig in you'll find plenty of edginess and emotional content. What appear to be soft harmless lips may actually conceal sharp teeth. It’s there but not in an overt way. It’s subtle and it mostly has to do with sex…seriously. The number of sexual references they make rivals ZZ Top. I can’t think of an album that doesn’t make some snide remark about fellatio. Now if grandma likes songs about blow jobs written by a band named after a dildo…
Grandmas were young once.
But hey, I find Burt Bacharach as exciting as Naked City (probably the edgiest music ever). And if you think SD is boring then Bacharach must sound like Lawrence Welk.
Another aspect you brought up, spontaneity. From what I understand, there is actually quite a bit of spontaneity on a typical SD record. They hire the best of the best session musicians and give them minimal direction, just a feel and the structure, other than that, the musicians have the freedom to play what they feel cuz they are such badass amazing players. This may not always be the case, but based on a SD documentary I saw, they do give the musicians a lot of freedom.
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #40
Gear Maniac
 
My Tiny Circus's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by GO56 ➡️
pulchritudo in oculis aspicientis est.
Ear surely ?
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #41
Lives for gear
 
GordZilla's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I'm with You there drumzealot... I find Steely Dan resonates with me on a personal/emotional level that NOTHING else does that has been produced in the last 10 years at least (with possibly a couple exceptions... like Tragically Hip maybe).

I guess we are showing our age, when some young feller describes SD as "grandma music" hahaha. I can see how the thoughtful, clever precision of SDs arrangements might seem... ahem... "cold and contrived" to someone used to much of the absolute dreck that passes for music these days.

It's okay Nolet... maybe in a bunch more years you might grow into more appreciation for what SD is trying to do

Meanwhile... you are entitled to your opinion... and I respect that
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #42
Lives for gear
 
jeremy.c.'s Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by drumzealot ➡️
Of course, it’s OK to not like something, but I've yet to encounter a well informed opinion against Steely Dan. Most of the criticism doesn't reflect a deep understanding of music, or have any thing intelligent to back it up. Opinions are only worth the arguments that back them up and so far I have yet to encounter an opinion against SD that is worth much.

I don’t see how anyone who is “educated” in music cannot at least appreciate SD.
That's really an interesting logical fallacy you're employing here, to state that if we can't meet you at your opinion that we're not validated because we're uneducated, and if we do, then your opinion overrides. You're throwing out our opinions because they don't meet your criteria, not sure when we all decided your criteria is what we have to live up to?
I honestly don't really care one way or another if someone loves or hates Sting. He is a personal hero of mine (musically speaking, I can take or leave some of his behavioral issues) and has influenced me greatly. Some people think his music is watered down pop-culture pablum. Whatever. I still find a lot of artistic merit in his music when I turn it on. He has amazing musicians, he is an amazing musician himself, but I wouldn't argue with someone if they fail to see the merit in his work, I wouldn't even think there was something wrong with them for not seeing it the same way... I get their argument that he is now producing watered down, uninspired pop music and he has an ego you couldn't run over with a semi-truck.
I appreciate a lot of music I don't like, I even personally appreciate Steely Dan, though you wouldn't catch me dead listening to them. I still don't think SD appreciation is any determination on how educated someone is musically, with or without an argument from personal incredulity.
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #43
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drumzealot's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by olivia_nb ➡️
That's really an interesting logical fallacy you're employing here, to state that if we can't meet you at your opinion that we're not validated because we're uneducated, and if we do, then your opinion overrides. You're throwing out our opinions because they don't meet your criteria, not sure when we all decided your criteria is what we have to live up to?
Which logical fallacy are you referring to?

I would never object to people having other opinions. It’s that their opinion isn’t backed up by anything other than circular arguments. “I don’t like so-and-so because they suck.” Now there’s a logical fallacy (begging the question). Hold whatever opinion you want. But if you’re going to post it in a public forum and then invite people to comment then be prepared to discuss. If the discussion offends then keep it to yourself. With the exception of Nolet, nobody has supported their negative opinion with anything intelligent. “My criteria” I hope is shared by everyone making it our criteria. The criteria being: let an opinion be well informed.
I’m not sure why people don’t enjoy the discussion. As music nerd, I love having civil debates about artists. I learn a lot and often discover new stuff that ends up changing my opinion. It’s a great way to help one’s mind stay open to new ideas. I may challenge people about things, but I’ve done so in a respectful manner, inviting them to share their knowledge. And I’m truly interested in hearing it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by olivia_nb ➡️
I honestly don't really care one way or another if someone loves or hates Sting. He is a personal hero of mine (musically speaking, I can take or leave some of his behavioral issues) and has influenced me greatly. Some people think his music is watered down pop-culture pablum. Whatever. I still find a lot of artistic merit in his music when I turn it on. He has amazing musicians, he is an amazing musician himself, but I wouldn't argue with someone if they fail to see the merit in his work, I wouldn't even think there was something wrong with them for not seeing it the same way... I get their argument that he is now producing watered down, uninspired pop music and he has an ego you couldn't run over with a semi-truck. I appreciate a lot of music I don't like, I even personally appreciate Steely Dan, though you wouldn't catch me dead listening to them. I still don't think SD appreciation is any determination on how educated someone is musically, with or without an argument from personal incredulity. Kfhkh
Your attitude is refreshing. A lot of people don't have a category for music they respect but don't like. It s possible that art is good but not to a person's liking. I think the Sting comparison is perfect. I haven’t really spent much time digging into the stuff he did after his “Sun” album, which I loved. As a result, I try not to form a strong opinion about it one way or the other. I can say that after hearing the stuff they play on the radio, it does sound a bit flat to me. However, I bet that if I spent the time to understand the music and what’s behind the scenes I would like it a lot more than I do now.
All I’m advocating is, if you have an opinion about something let it be well informed. And let a strong opinion be very well informed.
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #44
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jeremy.c.'s Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by drumzealot ➡️
Your attitude is refreshing. A lot of people don't have a category for music they respect but don't like. It s possible that art is good but not to a person's liking. I think the Sting comparison is perfect. I haven’t really spent much time digging into the stuff he did after his “Sun” album, which I loved. As a result, I try not to form a strong opinion about it one way or the other. I can say that after hearing the stuff they play on the radio, it does sound a bit flat to me. However, I bet that if I spent the time to understand the music and what’s behind the scenes I would like it a lot more than I do now.
All I’m advocating is, if you have an opinion about something let it be well informed. And let a strong opinion be very well informed.
I have a really good friend that either loves music, or hates it (about 90% falls into this category). He definitely is a music lover, but he can't appreciate anything in any style he doesn't like; he hates all rap, electronica, etc. His own music also reflects this attitude, it's very juvenile and not very well thought out. So I definitely get your point. But I still disagree and think that the artistic merits of any music can be lost on someone and they can still be educated enough to make that determination. It does make for a good debate though, something I am not adverse to (apparently).
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #45
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drumzealot's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by olivia_nb ➡️
...the artistic merits of any music can be lost on someone and they can still be educated enough to make that determination.
I don't understand. Are you saying that someone can not understand something but still have an educated opinion about it?
If I understand correctly, then we most definitely disagree. An opinion-made-public is only as good as its supporting argument.
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #46
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jeremy.c.'s Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by drumzealot ➡️
I don't understand. Are you saying that someone can not understand something but still have an educated opinion about it?
If I understand correctly, then we most definitely disagree. An opinion-made-public is only as good as its supporting argument.
You're equating understanding something with finding artistic merits in it. I totally understand what Warhol was doing, I don't find it particularly artistic though. I understand his place in the NYC art scene and pop culture and he probably had valid points, however, a lot of other people understand Warhol and find artistic merit in his work. I am not demeaning Warhol's place in culture or begrudging anyone their opinion of him, but I just don't look at his work and go "art!" It has no effect on me, beyond like or dislike. This doesn't strip it of artistic value for anyone else. Apply this conversation in a theoretical manner to SD (as it's not an opinion I hold about them).
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #47
Gear Guru
 
chrisso's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
It's perfectly normal to find artistic merit in one artist and not in another. To like one band and not another. It's all about personal taste.
I think it's sensible to separate talent and skill from your own personal taste though.
To suggest Becker and Fagen have no talent or skill seems ignorant to me.
I can't stand Metallica and Tammy Wynette, but I accept they are talented, skilled musicians who have a credible body of work.
If someone can't appreciate what Steely Dan, Stevie Wonder and The Beatles have achieved, I wonder................
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #48
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GordZilla's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso ➡️
It's perfectly normal to find artistic merit in one artist and not in another. To like one band and not another. It's all about personal taste.
I think it's sensible to separate talent and skill from your own personal taste though.
To suggest Becker and Fagen have no talent or skill seems ignorant to me.
I can't stand Metallica and Tammy Wynette, but I accept they are talented, skilled musicians who have a credible body of work.
If someone can't appreciate what Steely Dan, Stevie Wonder and The Beatles have achieved, I wonder................
Well put amigo
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #49
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jeremy.c.'s Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso ➡️
It's perfectly normal to find artistic merit in one artist and not in another. To like one band and not another. It's all about personal taste.
I think it's sensible to separate talent and skill from your own personal taste though.
To suggest Becker and Fagen have no talent or skill seems ignorant to me.
I can't stand Metallica and Tammy Wynette, but I accept they are talented, skilled musicians who have a credible body of work.
If someone can't appreciate what Steely Dan, Stevie Wonder and The Beatles have achieved, I wonder................
I agree, but to play devil's advocate here, I don't think we are calling into question technical skill here. I think Yngwie Malmsteen is insanely technically talented and skilled, however...
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #50
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drumzealot's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by olivia_nb ➡️
I agree, but to play devil's advocate here, I don't think we are calling into question technical skill here. I think Yngwie Malmsteen is insanely technically talented and skilled, however...
Man, every now and then I meet someone who actually likes listening to Yankme Palmschteen. Of course, I bow to his speed, articulation, and guitar tossing skills (he probably has great computer hacking and liger drawing skills too). Absolutely incredible. Add a sense of melody, taste and (at least) a hint of understament and maybe I could enjoy it too.
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #51
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jeremy.c.'s Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by drumzealot ➡️
(he probably has great computer hacking and liger drawing skills too).
ha!
Old 11th February 2009
  #52
Lives for gear
 
drumzealot's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Keep it smooth
Yacht Rock

check out episode 10
Old 11th February 2009 | Show parent
  #53
Led
Lives for gear
 
Led's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by organsymphony ➡️
Some people i know even thought kanye was the original artist behind "harder better faster stronger" tutt
Even sadder...most people I know think that Daft Punk was the original artist behind it......
Old 11th February 2009 | Show parent
  #54
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organsymphony's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Led ➡️
Even sadder...most people I know think that Daft Punk was the original artist behind it......
At least Daft Punk did something cool with it
Old 11th February 2009 | Show parent
  #55
Lives for gear
 
drumzealot's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I teach and do artist-in-residencies from time to time so I interact with young people quite a bit. Many of these kids come from less-than-ideal environments and are poorly educated as a result. I will often try to turn them on to the source material used in the hip-hop they love and most of the time they don’t find it interesting. They don’t really care about the history behind the music, as long as there’s that “tick tick” followed by that “bump”.
Old 12th February 2009 | Show parent
  #56
Led
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Led's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by organsymphony ➡️
At least Daft Punk did something cool with it
Cheers Organ, hope you don't think I was having a go at you. I just think it's funny that we've reached the age of 'sampling of sampling'.
Old 12th February 2009 | Show parent
  #57
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organsymphony's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Led ➡️
Cheers Organ, hope you don't think I was having a go at you. I just think it's funny that we've reached the age of 'sampling of sampling'.

Not at all, the thought of you having a go didn't even enter my head! I agree its kinda getting a bit silly now
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