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How to find good space for 2" tracking studio
Old 29th January 2013
  #1
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AdamB420's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
How to find good space for 2" tracking studio

Hi Everyone

I am looking at warehouse spaces for my studio to move to. I have been running a 2 inch 24 track studio catering for "rock bands" for about 10 years but have been in a temporary space for the last few years.. I am ready to move my gear into a new location, and would love some advice from anyone on what to look for, what information I can post here to help people who are knowledgeable on acoustics and studio design to give good advice.

I have found one location that I like and was going to take the following approach, any advice appreciated.

Arrange to inspect the warehouse again and take an acoustician. I have worked with a guy here in Sydney who has designed studios and is quite a good audio tech, I was going to book him for an hour or two to come out and view the warehouse and advise.

When inspecting, take a tape measure and try and get as many dimensions of the rooms as possible. Note the materials of the walls / floor / roof. Draw a floor plan of the current layout.

I have very breifly already seen the location and have a few hesitations; the roof is not very high. It is much like a standard office, whereas most spaces I have recorded drums in my engineering career have been in big rooms with high ceilings. Not always though, and I have achieved great sounds in smaller rooms... but this is one concern. Another issue is that I do not think the space as it is has a big enough room for a control room; I think I may have to create one. I have some phone photos of inside, I can post them if this helps, but I think I should get some higher quality images to provide.

Link to some basic images

Is there anything I am not thinking of, any suggestion as to how to gather this data better? I appreciate any help!

Adz
Old 29th January 2013
  #2
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Glenn Kuras's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
The ceiling looks to be a drop ceiling so it might be much higher then you really think. And yes I agree you want a nice size control room to work in.
Old 4th February 2013
  #3
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I think you are correct, the building has much higher roof than what the ceiling is inside, will check it out.

I have hired an acoustic consultant to come look at the space later in the week, I will report what he tells me.
Old 15th February 2013
  #4
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I have been to the space again with a builder and an acoustician.

The acoustician needs me to get him room dimensions (sending him my attempt at Google SketchUp plans), but he has said the space could be very workable for a studio. The wood floors and wood walls (it is some wooden particle board, he said it sounds a lot better than "gyprock" or plasterboard) are a bonus, but he is not sure if I have a room in there big enough for a control room that will house a 2" 24 track plus gear.



Any suggestions as to if I can work in one of the rooms (I will treat it, traps and such) or if I need to build a new room, and if so, where the best places might be to look at this construction.

Let me know if there is any further info I can provide, on my original post is a link to some photos of the rooms.
Old 15th February 2013
  #5
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This is a good photo to show how that potential control room is like two rooms with a joining support beam thing.
Old 15th February 2013
  #6
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🎧 10 years
are you looking to use the existing rooms as-is? or do you have isolation requirements etc which would dictate gutting the existing rooms and (presumably to save money keep the bathrooms where they are) build new rooms fit for purpose? if the latter (and assuming the ceiling it higher than just the internal ceiling, you should be able to readily build a nice CR, live room, isolation rooms, plus a nice machine room for the tape units and other electronics.
Old 15th February 2013
  #7
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There's two approaches... deal with what you have, and knock down as few walls as possible, and adding only as many walls as you need for isolation...

OR

You find as empty of a warehouse space as you can, with big high ceilings and as wide of a span as you can find.

Neither one is right, neither one on wrong... each one fits the catagory of a money suk hole, just fine.

In the end, unless your existing rooms are pretty close to being good dimensions already, you'll come out about even by starting with a clean slate and building everything just like you want it.

The way I see it, you either take someone else's problem, and try to fix it, or you fix it before you build it... you're either spending cash on the front side, or you spend it on the back side.

I personally decided to spend it on the front side and designed it first and built within the parameters of the space I had... For me anyway, I figured that I sunk enough money into it, and that if I was gonna be idiot enough to build it, I wasn't willing to settle for a compromise on some existing issue with a room or rooms that I would never be happy with.

Going the other route takes more guts and bravery than I could muster.

Just one idiot's opinion.......
Old 16th February 2013
  #8
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AdamB420's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Thanks for the replies. I am considering this space because the asking rent is very cheap, and this is going to be a one man operated and financed enterprise so am trying to do it on a small budget. I was hoping one of the rooms has an appropriate dimension to hold a small control room, and if not I would be looking at building one room in the space and then using the space as it is for the tracking areas, after some treatment on the walls. So I am not really up for gutting the place.. any thoughts on the room I have marked as a potential control room?

Sent from my g04ref
Old 18th February 2013
  #9
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🎧 15 years
Can anyone advise how I can establish if one of these rooms may be suitable for a control room or where I could build one and what are good dimensions?

If not the answer, the best resource to find out?
Old 18th February 2013
  #10
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🎧 15 years
Wish I had a few more minutes to yammer on, but I hate to leave ya' hanging... (Like it matters if some ol' fart kinda' rambles on)

Do a search here, and on the web for 3 things...

"Golden Ratio", BBC Tech Archive, and Sabine.

The world is a strange place, so there's no way your accuracy will apply, and you too will discover that there is no perfect room.

You're gonna be hard pressed to find out any real numbers right off the bat. But keep after it. You can probably get there on your own. It's just a bit of tedium to plug in all the calculations.

An accurate ceiling drawing without all that drop ceiling in there is gonna help a LOT to get your final numbers.

Just be sure you address your isolation requirements NOW! Anything that crops up much after this point can be as much as twice as costly later. Believe me, you can't afford to loose the time to rip apart something you built 6 months earlier.

I'm guessing the operational space is more important, but personally, I'd take the big room as your control room, use everthing else as iso. The room's actually big enough to track and mix in, as long as you realise that tracking BIG drums in there might be a bit rough with anyone who REALLY hits hard.... but you can remote into most rigs, and control the DAW from one of the iso's... or even the loo... so that ain't no deal stopper.

The deal stopper is if you can't iso percussion, trucks, trains, or planes when you need to.

And just to cover all bases... remeber these 3 rules...

Wherever air goes; so goes sound.
Mass is your friend.
Acoustic Treatment is NOT soundproofing
It can cost twice as much tomorrow... and it usually does.
oh yeah, and yours can be worth half as much.... all on the same day.

Such is life.

But pick the amount of "perfection" you want, and then fall in love with the space!
Old 18th February 2013
  #11
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gullfo's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
if isolation isn't a problem, then perhaps doing some acoustic measurements in the rooms to gauge what issues you may have , then treat accordingly. otherwise if isolation is important, you have a lot of work potentially, and as Max suggested, many times you're best starting from scratch versus trying to spend a similar amount of money only to find it's not working.
Old 19th February 2013 | Show parent
  #12
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by xaMdaM ➑️
Wish I had a few more minutes to yammer on, but I hate to leave ya' hanging... (Like it matters if some ol' fart kinda' rambles on)
Mate, your advice is really appreciated and any rambling will be read with enthusiasm.. your studio is really nice. I followed the link on your post to Dark Pines and that is a really sexy control room. I love your wood desk. That looks like a very vibey tracking space. Your control room looks big but not extreme.. may I ask what dimensions are working for you there?

Quote:
Originally Posted by xaMdaM ➑️
Do a search here, and on the web for 3 things...

"Golden Ratio", BBC Tech Archive, and Sabine.
I recently watched a bunch of Egypt documentaries so I understand the concept of The Golden Ratio, 1:1.618. I'm not sure what this means in terms of room dimensions - does this mean I should have the length of the room at a ratio of 1:1.618 to the width? What about ceiling height? In the room I was thinking was a potential control room, I have Room Dimensions: Length=6.95 m, Width=3.5 m, Height=2.8 m. Room Ratio: 1 : 1.25 : 2.48. Should I be trying to get the 1st two numbers at Golden Ratio? Would this mean ceiling height is not in the equation?

BBC TECH Archive seems to be a podcast - should I be searching for studio design or something on there? Will sniff around more, thanks for tip.

Sabine - the company? I seem to go to a website with feedback suppressors..

Quote:
Originally Posted by xaMdaM ➑️
The world is a strange place, so there's no way your accuracy will apply, and you too will discover that there is no perfect room.

You're gonna be hard pressed to find out any real numbers right off the bat. But keep after it. You can probably get there on your own. It's just a bit of tedium to plug in all the calculations.

An accurate ceiling drawing without all that drop ceiling in there is gonna help a LOT to get your final numbers.

Just be sure you address your isolation requirements NOW! Anything that crops up much after this point can be as much as twice as costly later. Believe me, you can't afford to loose the time to rip apart something you built 6 months earlier.
Great advice and I know well the "measure twice cut once" mantra with studio building. I understand I probably will not get usable numbers for acoustic accuracy through forum advice.. I am however trying to establish what a minimum requirement and shape a control room should be as a general starting point, within the space I can work in, that will allow some kind of accurate frequency response from the room to allow mixes to translate. I have never had a treated room to mix in, I have made whatever I have work, usually no treatment. I want to try and improve that situation with this next studio move. But I know I cannot afford to do it as I want, I am a one man operation that is trying to step it up a notch above just chucking my gear in a warehouse. I work on heavy rock bands, and just cannot seem to figure out what kind of control room I need, and therefore I don't even know how to start budgeting for it or talking to builders about what I want... and I'm getting overwhelmed by the initial steps of even knowing if I should lease the building. It is an amazing deal for the rent, I really do not think I will find anything as big or appropriate again, I need to get on the case... but as you say, do it right, don't rush it because you will regret it way more later. But I really want to just get a control room figured out, and start recording in there and treat the other recording spaces and apply treatment over time once I get in there for measurements and do some actual work in there. But I just can't figure out of (A) one of the rooms is big enough to retrofit into a control room or (B) I need to build a new room and what dimensions I should design.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xaMdaM ➑️
I'm guessing the operational space is more important, but personally, I'd take the big room as your control room, use everthing else as iso. The room's actually big enough to track and mix in, as long as you realise that tracking BIG drums in there might be a bit rough with anyone who REALLY hits hard.... but you can remote into most rigs, and control the DAW from one of the iso's... or even the loo... so that ain't no deal stopper.

The deal stopper is if you can't iso percussion, trucks, trains, or planes when you need to.
Making a combined tracking / mix room would solve a lot of issues, but I just can't imagine working like that. How do you EQ drums when they are being played? I work with extremely hard hitters and amps that are being punished. I like to be in a different room when the band plays and be critically listening to performances.. I do not think I can work with a remote station in an iso booth. I am going to consider the idea after your suggestion, but I think it makes me feel sad not having a control room.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xaMdaM ➑️
And just to cover all bases... remeber these 3 rules...

Wherever air goes; so goes sound.
Mass is your friend.
Acoustic Treatment is NOT soundproofing
It can cost twice as much tomorrow... and it usually does.
oh yeah, and yours can be worth half as much.... all on the same day.

Such is life.
I will try and work as much mass into any new walls as I can afford.

I do not need any soundproofing, a godsend I know. Quiet surrounds, off the street by quite a way, I can make as much noise as I want without issues.

One thing that pisses me off a little is looks like I need to build the control room to the actual ceiling, not the drop one.. as where air goes so does sound.. so building a new room is gonna cost more than I am assuming. Money pit!

Quote:
Originally Posted by xaMdaM ➑️
But pick the amount of "perfection" you want, and then fall in love with the space!
That is exactly where I am at, and while it might sound silly, I am trying to get the minimum perfection I can, but still SOME Simply put - I think I can have the recording spaces be as they are (work on them over time but not something I need to do before I open for business, I have tracked in untreated weird spaces my whole life) but want to find out if I can turn one the rooms [Length=6.95 m, Width=3.5 m, Height=2.8 m. Room Ratio: 1 : 1.25 : 2.48] into a usuable mix space or if I have to make a room.

If new room, any advice as to how to come to a good design.

Thanks for your post xaMdaM, really appreciated. I am jealous of your tracking space!
Old 19th February 2013
  #13
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🎧 10 years
Depending upon your budget, if really tight(aren't they all?), I'd isolate the control room you room you propose Basically a new isolated wall around including a window and door lock. If you have never had an acoustically perfect room to mix in join the club. One might exist somewhere

What is the most logical inter connection of cabling between the live room and the Control room?
what is the most acoustically sound path for the cabling?

On the ceiling; it depends on how the Lease is structured, usually for Commercial you can pull down and start from scratch but being a warehouse it may have clauses on the existing structure. ie ceiling.

The modern hang down ceiling are supported by a light framework of aluminium.
I'd just throw a heap of insulation above it and tighten any noisy inter connections with goop or hang some foam from them (hooks)as well and some light weight diffuser design for both the live room and Control room.

The more dampening you use; effectively you are raising the ceiling height. Those white ceilings in Commercial buildings here are very light wieght and porous.

Bass trappings, broadband diffusers, and some gobos.

Should be ready to rock!
Old 19th February 2013 | Show parent
  #14
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jinksdingo ➑️
Depending upon your budget, if really tight, I'd isolate the control room you propose Basically a new isolated wall around including a window and door lock
So this:
Length=6.95 m, Width=3.5 m, Height=2.8 m. Room Ratio: 1 : 1.25 : 2.48

is appropriate for a control room? Sure it is not huge, I can make it work. But is this a sonically OK room to attempt to make a control room?

An interesting note: this room has had a proper ceiling built, not a drop. It is currently a shell within the warehouse including roof. Shared floor though.
Old 19th February 2013
  #15
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🎧 15 years
Thanx for the kudo's on the place... I'm seriously happy with it. The place translates well, and most folks are comfortable and really like working here... and I was very fortunate that we were included in Mix Magazine's "Online Class of 2010".

The Control Room is 16'x21", with a ceiling that rises front to back; from 10' up to 14' in the rear of the room. It's also a decent tracking space as well... I've tracked horns, vox and a few odd aux percussion instruments in there, and have been really happy with the results.

First off, lemme state that I have a LOT of confidence in Rod Gervais. He's done right by me, and I'm proud to let folks know he did all the engineering from my basic plans. So, And I'll gladly shill his book "Build It Like The Pros", and highly recommend you pick it up... along with Alton Everest's "Master Handbook of Acoustics".[End Disclaimer]

Here's the BBC Archive
BBC - R&D - Publications - Archive

The "Golden Ratio" I was talking about is pretty well covered here (among MANY others sites) But Eric's a sharp cookie when it comes to all this propeller head stuff, and if nothing else, it should get you pointed in the right direction.
Acoustics Forum • View topic - ROOM RATIOS

Sabine and the Sabin Ratio:
Wallace Clement Sabine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sabin (unit) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You DO NOT absolutely have to have a control room or tracking room based upon the golden room ratios. Many rooms that are considered great rooms are not any of the accepted ratios... but they sure help with getting a good room... if you can end up there.

The methodology of measuring a room, and determining the existing acoustic energy::absorption (sabin) and then determining the value of sabin's needed to bring the room to your desired sabin content is indeed tricky, but it's damned accurate if you take the time to figure it accurately... then applying the use of the more complex mode calculators will help you predict where you'll need to consider placing acoustic treatments... as confirmed by your measurements.

This is where it gets tricky and why I said that sometimes, you really are better off starting with a shell and building everything to your design specs.

You can literally spend the same money trying to correct an issue in an existing structure, as you would have spent putting up your own walls and ceiling.

The fact that the proposed CR has a hard ceiling may or may not be a good thing. You'll need to determine if that ceiling structure is going to give you enough mass and/or structural support to add any mass you may discover you need.

The fact that much of the facility has drop ceilings could be a deal killer for me. The reason is that to gain any kind of isolation, you will need to put ceilings over any/all the rooms you want isolation to/from... (Don't forget about those bathrooms either! What would be worse than a great vocal take with a "whoosh!" of a toilet flush in the middle of that take.)

If the existing walls will not support a structural ceiling, you're screwed, glued and tatoo'd... So, be absolutely certain that you know how those existing walls are constructed, and be prepared to build accordingly.

Oh, and one last rule... It WILL cost you 3 times your budget to build this studio. I know no one who hasn't run into this reality.

I suggest folks set a budget this way...

Whatever your absolute top dollar is, divide that number by 3... that's your working budget... knowing full well you'll blow through that... but you'll actually be able to finish the project that way.

Gotta run... but I'll check in with a few more ramblin's a bit later...
Old 20th February 2013
  #16
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🎧 15 years
Great post!! I want to pour over your links before I shoot my mouth off with questions probably covered in your linked material. Brew up a coffee and let's get reading.

Thanks a lot, your advice is helping.
Old 20th February 2013
  #17
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🎧 15 years
Don't underestimate your HVAC needs!!!

Oh... and WELCOME TO INSANITY!!!

We go talking about making everything air tight, lead lined doors, 5000 pound walls and then you screw it all up by cutting holes in the envelope??? WTF?!?!?

Yeah... it's THAT crazy.... for a reason...

It can be appreciated this way...

You have a building with xxdb of sound outside... you have xxdb of sound inside. That applies to each space/room... and the exterior of the building.

Take each enclosure and think about how much air you need... there is usually a "local" building code that dictates the minimum amount of air that the room needs to turn over. It's been awhile since I was diggin' into all this, but IIRC, it's usually something like 3 times per hour?? I could be dead wrong... litterally... so get a professional to advise you... not me... But I can also adivse you that no matter what the volume of turnover is, you do need a fresh air component, and the speed of the air flow is indeed critical for any kind of sensible recording of quiet passages.

Sure, you can just turn off the system... but that's just plain gonna suk after the first coupla' weeks of being busy.

That air column of the room and it's associated air column in the HVAC system, is going to react to the other air columns on that same HVAC system.

So, one would be prudent to look at room/encloure isolation as where your big bucks are spent.... bathrooms, tape/equipment/servers/IT infrastructure, lounge, parking lot, low frequency issues.

For a tape/machine room... maybe the economical route would be a mini-split... or a couple of mini-splits for the isolation areas, leaving the majority of your existing system to handle the large areas.

Oh... and cabling... both low voltage and high voltage... Run your low voltage low, and your high voltage high.

I prefer wall panels as opposed to a snake head hanging out of a PVC... but that's an aesthetic preference... and to make a neat and tidy environment, you're gonna need to put decent sized PVC in the walls for your low voltage, and code dictated conduit/pvc/romex in for the electrical... and don't forget to be ready to pull star ground to the electrical panel. (LOTS o' folks do find out they need to create a star ground plane AFTER the build is over.) Plan for it now, it's a buttload cheaper than ripping out a power wall six months down the road.

Again, I'm not tellin' you what you gotta do... just lettin' ya' know what I went through, and what I've read other folks have run into.

It's your space, and your pockets and the hole in your wallet is your own doing.. not mine! I done warned ya that your doomed to eat a diet of Vegamite and water!!!
Old 26th February 2013
  #18
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🎧 15 years
I am making an offer on the building this week.

I plan to take out that room I flagged as possible control room and build a new one bigger. Still figuring out dimensions for it but it will go to the true ceiling of the building.

Will post my plans to see if any advice out there.
Old 26th February 2013 | Show parent
  #19
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by SNJ Studio ➑️
I am making an offer on the building this week.

I plan to take out that room I flagged as possible control room and build a new one bigger. Still figuring out dimensions for it but it will go to the true ceiling of the building.

Will post my plans to see if any advice out there.
You have my condolences mate! (You've obviosly lost yor mind, like so many of us here....)

Since yer' gonna take the plunge afterall.... one thing I have forgotten to mention to folks before.... LOGISTICS!!

Really plan when things will be completed tasks, and you're ready for the next materials. Having some materials on site ahead of time isn't so bad... but you don't want to end up moving building materials out of the way for weeks on end. It really can kill your spirit... I ended up moving 8 bundles of 4x8 sheets of 1" 703 around the building for about 6 months because I had no labor for two weeks prior to when they showed up on site. And you don't need the opposite... where you're waiting for two weeks for some kind of clip, lumber, caulk, etc, to show up, so you can finish up or get started on the next step.

Be realistic in how many hours/day you can put in, then cut that in half... cause EVERYTHING else becomes a time-suk to getting finished.

Lookin' forward to watching you loose yer' mind!! (Like the rest of us have!!)
It's a nice fraternity, really...

We DO have a dress code though.
(It's a rather snug fitting white dinner jacket... but you learn to appreciate it in colder weather.)

Rock on!
Max
Old 28th February 2013
  #20
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🎧 15 years
Ha ha, yeah man I'm gonna be a bundle of stress soon I'm sure, but worth it.

This is not going to be a high end room when I start. I just gotta build a halfway decent control room and make a start. I've got a pretty decent plan but it is more about negotiating a good lease at the moment, once that is solid I will get those Logistics down.
Old 28th February 2013 | Show parent
  #21
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by SNJ Studio ➑️
This is not going to be a high end room when I start. I just gotta build a halfway decent control room and make a start. I've got a pretty decent plan but it is more about negotiating a good lease at the moment, once that is solid I will get those Logistics down.
Not bustin' yer chops, mate... not at all...

This may just be a difference in semantics of cultural language... but please don't confuse budget and finished results.

Your studio CAN be high end without a high dollar budget.

It's up to you to come up with a well thought out plan, and executing that plan as best/efficiently as you possibly can... and I guess this kinda' goes back to the insight I personally gained by "starting from scratch" with an empty shell of a building.

I really believe in Rod's philosophy... A good studio design takes into account using tried and true construction methods and materials.

Planning practically goes hand in hand with planning efficiently... taking into account desired acoustic and sound proofing results.

An example I'd site is being realistic in where you decide to spend bigger bucks on isolation.

Since you have a solid monolithic slab floor, in the few rooms that you really need that isolation; iso booths, tape machine room and bathrooms... maybe this is where you spend some time exploring floating a floor over the existing concrete (1" rigid insulation on the concrete, with two layers of 3/4" plywood over the rigid insulation, beefed up walls and solid ceilings.) as opposed to trying to isolated everything in the building including the larger spaces.

I guess what I'm saying is that if your design is good, your rooms that need to be isolated are isolated, the environment is able to enhance the perception of confidence in the artist to perform their best, and you're confident in what you can produce... then your studio is indeed... "high end"... regardless of whether you spent $1000 or $100,000.

The big "hidden" expenses in building a studio are what eat the ass out of your wallet; Labor, nails/fasteners, caulk and mistakes that cause rework.

If your plan is good, you can virtually eliminate reworks... but mistakes DO happen. In my case, when we laid out the walls in the bathroom, I made the mistake of putting one wall of the shower on the wrong side of a lay out chaulk line. That made my bathroom out of compliance for ADA at the sink, and had to move the main wall with the door, out another 6". The problem was that to be able to tie in to a stud, I actually needed to move that wall 8".

When it came time to evaluate moving the shower wall vs the door wall... it was more expensive to rip out the shower pan and rework that, than to loose 8" of the lounge.

I would love to have that 8" back, but the practical solution was cheaper in the long run... as it was only my labor involved in moving the wall... not the plumbers, tile contractor AND my labor... plus the materials waste and repurchase of those same materials.

But in the end, if you do as much of the actual work as you can, you can save a serious amount of the expense, as labor typically accounts for 50% of your overall costs.
Old 1st March 2013
  #22
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AdamB420's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I hear you.. I did build a studio back in 2000 and it became a lot more of a process than I anticipated. So yeah I'm trying to really plan this out, luckily I have a couple of professional builders, electricians and carpenters to assist (band mates and studio clients keen to help). I am constantly hitting them up for advice and to show them some ideas.

Isolation is important and your suggestion is what I was thinking. Now this may sound bad, but what I plan to do is get some kind of noise reduction between live room and this new control room (I know a shared floor does not help but I hope a good room within a room may be enough) and then look at isolating the booths and other areas over time. I cannot afford to do it all at once, I think I will have about $5K for the control room build then I need to earn to get more. I know this is not optimal, but this is financed by one independent engineer that hopes to just get some kind of facility going again, I have a lot of ex-clients begging me to produce their next release to tape, there is a serious vacuum in my area for studios in my price bracket that can provide a certain level of quality. Plus, I recently watched SOUND CITY and it has completely put the studio owner bug back in my brain.

This weekend I should have some initial floor plans of what I am going to propose.. I will share them here if there may be some insight.

Thanks again for your posts Max, been great to read.
Old 4th March 2013
  #23
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🎧 15 years
I read Rod's book over the weekend. Great read and opened my eyes to a few things, mostly the things people think will help that actually reduce STC ratings.

I think I have a spot in the warehouse to build the control room now.

Can I just confirm I have this correct:

"The Golden Section is a set of ratios that has the smallest dimension (often the height) the starting point; then the next longest dimension is 1.62 times that length (often the width); the final dimension is 1.62 times the second dimension (usually the length of the room). When a room is built using these ratios, sound in the room is incredibly even - Ideal for a studio."

So I I know the true height of the ceiling, I should be able to determine my room dimensions to adhere to this? I hope to get in there this week, remove the drop ceiling and get some data on this.
Old 4th March 2013 | Show parent
  #24
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by SNJ Studio ➑️
So I know the true height of the ceiling, I should be able to determine my room dimensions to adhere to this? I hope to get in there this week, remove the drop ceiling and get some data on this.
BINGO!!

By George, I think he's got it!!
Old 4th March 2013 | Show parent
  #25
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Rod Gervais's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by SNJ Studio ➑️
Can I just confirm I have this correct:

"When a room is built using these ratios, sound in the room is incredibly even - Ideal for a studio."
The assumption is incorrect.

Known room ratios simply provide a starting point that might will help you to reach the end goal.

Regardless of the ratio you use - acoustically small rooms are problematic, which is not the same as saying that this doesn't matter.

Certainly rooms that are "bad" spaces acoustically do not make sense to start with (for example perfect cubes) - however - when all is said and done, working from the starting point of good modal distribution is just that - a starting point - it is not the end game.....

By the way - even acoustically large spaces require careful thought throughout the entire design process in order for them to work - nothing built simply as a box will work acoustically just because it fits within the guidelines of a good modal model.

Rod
Old 4th March 2013 | Show parent
  #26
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3 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod Gervais ➑️
By the way - even acoustically large spaces require careful thought throughout the entire design process in order for them to work - nothing built simply as a box will work acoustically just because it fits within the guidelines of a good modal model.
+1

It is interesting to note that one of the great halls on this planet had key design elements determined by the lumber available at the time. Unfortunately, the link that addresses this directly is lost into the ether, but you can look at this:

Musikvereinshaus Main Concert Hall Musikverein vienna

When the designers of Musikvereinshaus were just getting started, they sent out requests to many European sawmills for available lengths of timbers with which to construct the primary pillars and cantilever elements for the hall. They bought the largest lumber available that met their spec and that purchase played a major part in determining the proportions of the hall. But what Rod is getting at above is really important because the designers had a great understanding of how to finish a space for live music. As it turns out, the spacing of the pillars used to support the cantilevers are considered to provide diffusion appropriate for a venue of that size and shape. So some consider that luck was involved whereas others ascribe the success to genius.
Old 5th March 2013
  #27
Gear Addict
 
AdamB420's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Thanks for your post, Rod. I have enjoyed a fast read of your book on the weekend and am now re reading with more attention to the areas that apply to my scenario.

I do plan on treating the room once the frame and walls are up, taking measurements, applying diffusers, absorbers and bass traps as needed and advised. But at this stage I am simply trying to get a ballpark dimesnion of a control room I want to build, as I need to submit this to the landlord for approval and get my lease terms arranged. I need to at least show them an approximate room size and location in the warehouse.

So with this in mind I have been recommended this advice:
"There are many known good room ratios: the one you mention (1 : 1.62 : 2.62 ) is just one of them, and is suitable for long, narrow rooms. Arguably, the best ratio of all is 1 : 1.14 : 1.39. This is "Sepmeyer's best ratio", and give the smoothest modal distribution of all possible ratios, and is more suitable for typical project studio size rooms. So with Sepmeyer 1, if your room were 10 feet high, you would make it 11.4 feet wide and 13.9 feet long. The ratio you mentioned comes in at number 20 on the list of good ratios, 19 places behind Sepmeyer 1."

SO.. if my roof is 3.8 metres..

1 : 1.14 : 1.39

3.8m : 4.33m : 5.28m

Which in a quick sketchup I think will go here:


How am I looking? Finer details will be figured out when I get my lease agreement. I really appreciate the advice. Even the anecdotes on million dollar rooms and custom timber lengths.. just to repeat, this is one engineer financing an indie room. I know, don;t aim low.. but reality needs to be checked now and then..
Old 5th March 2013
  #28
Lives for gear
 
3 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
I wouldn't lock in too hard on Sepmeyer's ratios in part because you know you're going to treat the room. Ask yourself if the dimensions you mentioned will fit the work flow you and your clients will need in the room. Treatment takes up significant volume and there needs to be space to get to gear, cables, etc., and to not be tripping over people when you move around.

For me personally, your chosen dimensions would be excellent but I don't let many people into the CR. A few years ago, I had a CR a little bit larger than that and it was outstanding AFTER the treatments were tweaked. Empty, it was a flutter echo disaster.
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