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Two Floors Studio - Help Needed Please
Old 28th January 2013
  #1
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🎧 5 years
Two Floors Studio - Help Needed Please

Hello,

A friend of mine wants to build a studio in a place he's bought recently. I'v attached plans of the place.*It has 2 floors.The arrow indicates the present access from the street (which could be moved). The top floor is the one where the toilets are (street level), the other one is a basement (although there are neighbours on the stairs side). The lower walls and floor seem to be concrete. His idea is to have a small studio but, for professional use. So, he needs to be able to record drums and to use the main Live Room as a rehearsal room for his band. He obviously wants to meet the legal boundaries soundwise. I think he could build a control room and a live room (or maybe two, one being smaller, or maybe a vocal booth), depending on how much the cost would be, of course.

The really hard thing for me to decide is which way to go, concept wise.

I was hoping for that to get some inspiration from here.*I came up with some ideas, but if you have different approaches that you see worth considering I'm all open to suggestions and advices.

Thanks a lot for your time and help
Cheers
Sono
Attached Thumbnails
Two Floors Studio - Help Needed Please-file.jpeg   Two Floors Studio - Help Needed Please-file-1.jpeg  
Old 28th January 2013
  #2
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🎧 10 years
overall i like the design. you could also (assuming that's a window between the CR and office) leverage the office for additional isolation space - vox, etc.
Old 28th January 2013
  #3
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Glenn,
Thanks a lot for your quick reply.
Your assumption is correct: that is indeed a window
What do you mean by "leverage the office"? Sorry for the language barrier...
Cheers
Sono
Old 28th January 2013
  #4
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use the office as an additional isolation room - acoustic instruments, vocals etc. probably would want the "decorations" in the office to function as acoustic treatments - pictures on absorbers etc to make sure that if you do use it this way it's got reasonable acoustics.
Old 28th January 2013
  #5
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Oh I see what you mean. Definitely. It'll probably end up as live room 2 as soon as there's more money
I'm now designing the details and I'm running into problems and questions...

-Do you think it's worth digging the basement to get 20-25 cm more in height?.
-Since I'll be using a 2 leaf system, I'll need to fit two doors in the basement. There's a space problem with the small machine room since one door would be occupying most of it. I can draw a little sketch if what I'm saying doesn't make sense

Cheers
Sono
Old 28th January 2013
  #6
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🎧 10 years
depending on the cost and structural concerns, the extra height it generally worthwhile.

depending on how you arrange things, you might use 2 doors on the drum room upstairs and use the air space of the hallway etc to provide the air lock. then have the door jambs extend across the 2 wall (decoupled) so you can use a single heavy door each for the CR and the office.
Old 29th January 2013
  #7
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Glenn
thanks for your kind reply. Unfortunately my mac died yesterday evening. I'll get back in a couple of days with a sketchup file and some pics.
Cheers
Sono
Old 31st January 2013
  #8
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Hello again Glenn,

Apologies for the delay. My Macbook died on me a couple of days ago :(
You can imagine the mess. Fortunately, data is safe and I got another one fast

I have a few doubts that would need clarifying in my head:

1-Can I dig the concrete just under the Live Room (inner leaf -> inwards), instead of the whole floor? That would reduce the cost considerably, but I don't know if it's ok and if it needs anything extra, isolation wise.

2-Underneath the stairs it would be cool to build a storage space (although not absolutely mandatory if too complicated) but I don't know how to go about with the stair case (leave it open, closed), and if I close the bit under the stairs how to fit a door.....any ideas/suggestions?

3-Do I need more isolation? This would be a drum recording / band rehearsal room. The plasterboard walls depicted would be 60mm thick (4 layers of 15mm), the air chamber filled with rockwool (empty on the pic) 150mm. The doors depicted are just symbolical, of course. They would be properly sized, aligned, with proper materials and thickness and probably open the other way. I put them there just as a graphic reference.
I'd like to be at rest that there won't be problems with the neighbours on the other side of the stairs basically

Thanks a lot for your precious help
Cheers
Sono
Attached Thumbnails
Two Floors Studio - Help Needed Please-drumroom1.jpg  
Old 31st January 2013
  #9
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🎧 10 years
1- digging etc would require a local structural engineer to assess the impact on the building. footing etc need to be evaluated and your new floor needs to have a proper structure, not just a flat slab. 2- i'd leave the stair open. 3- 4x layers of drywall on each side should yield good isolation but the ceiling and structure transfer also need to be considered. if you can dig down and put in a new decoupled pad and build your inner wall on that, (assuming the pad is now earth damped) it should be pretty decent. if not, you'll want to plan on a floor which reduces the impact transfer or perhaps float a floor if you have the budget.
Old 31st January 2013
  #10
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🎧 5 years
Glenn,
Thanks for your prompt reply.
1-what do you mean by footing? As in how many people are going to be walking around?

3-I apologize for the language barrier but what's the difference between a decoupled pad, a floating floor and a floor which reduces the impact transfer? Just to make sure we're on the same page

An engineer came by the other day. He mentioned digging which I found awesome
I'd like to consider floating the floor (as in with concrete, etc) only if there's no way around, really...
Please let me know your thoughts. I'll try to upload pics of the actual place later tonight

Cheers
Sono
Old 31st January 2013
  #11
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🎧 10 years
a "footing" is a base creating prior to building a deeper foundation. http://norsewoodsmith.com/files/imag...te/footing.gif
in cases where you're building on a slab, you typically want the edges to have either a footing or thicker edges where you will put the walls to ensure stability of the slab.

a decoupled pad would be earth damped but isolated from the surrounding foundation. a floating floor would be decoupled from the earth or other floor, and a floor which reduces impact transfer would have limited mass but would be decoupled from the underlying floor (e.g. carpet on padding, a wood floor on top of rubber or insulation isolators, etc).
Old 1st February 2013
  #12
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Oh!! Haha, that must have sounded pretty funny to you! In my country when people jog, you say they "do footing", that's why I thought you were talking about something related with people

Sorry about all these questions but wouldn't a decoupled pad be the same as a floating floor? (i.e. a concrete slab over sylomer or similar). What does earth damped mean?

I understand the structural reason of the footing. Wouldn't it be ok to cut the perimeter of the hole, dig it out and line its bottom and sides with a say 8cm thick layer of concrete with mesh reinforcement, like when you build a pool, then build the inner walls on the floor of the slab and the outer walls on the original floor?

The engineer that came around proposed a floating floor made of a sandwich of 19mm Mdf with a 4 mm MAD type acoustic membrane inside over sylomer. I guess that would be a reduced impact floor?

What do you reckon? What would you go for?
I have attached a couple of photos of the real room.

Thanks for your time and help
Cheers
Sono
Attached Thumbnails
Two Floors Studio - Help Needed Please-dsc_1034.jpeg   Two Floors Studio - Help Needed Please-dsc_1035.jpeg  
Old 1st February 2013
  #13
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"earth damped" means the slab is built on the ground (along with requisite gravel, seals, etc) and so is not otherwise suspended or floating. the earth is a nice damper (assuming you're not building on rock or hard packed clay etc which could act as a good transfer medium).
yes, what your engineer described is the impact floor.

and it could be just what you need along with a decoupled set of walls and ceiling to meet your isolation needs. step one would be to actually measure the existing isolation and do tests to determine how much structural transfer ("flanking") you have with the current floor and walls.
Old 1st February 2013 | Show parent
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gullfo ➑️
step one would be to actually measure the existing isolation
You mean between the room and the neighbors, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gullfo ➑️
and do tests to determine how much structural transfer ("flanking") you have with the current floor and walls.
Can I do the flanking test or should it be done by someone pro?

Cheers
Sono
Old 1st February 2013
  #15
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I'm going to call someone that a good friend knows. He is supposed to be very accurate and reliable and has a 25 years experience in the field. He charges €250 so it's not a fortune and I think it's a good investment. I'll get back to you on this matter as soon I get this done. Meantime I'll finish designing upstairs on Sketchup to show you the idea.

Thanks a lot for your advice, Glenn
Cheers
Sono
Old 1st February 2013
  #16
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🎧 10 years
all around but yes between you and the neighbor would be important. a couple of ways to test it yourself - using hammers (metal and rubber) and a mechanics stethoscope you can have someone tapping the floors and ceilings while you listen and make notes. you can also use a powerful PA system to run sine sweeps and noise and drum+bass music while you use a sound meter to map the levels - set the PA to output around 105db or so and then map the levels in the neighbors as well as other part of the building plus outdoors etc.
optionally hire a professional who can do this plus record levels of the frequencies which are problematic from the flanking perspective. this can be done with specialized equipment which drives the vibrations.
Old 11th February 2013
  #17
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🎧 5 years
Hi Glenn,
Here's a sketch for the top floor insulation. I'd love to hear your impressions
Thanks a lot
Cheers
Sono
Attached Files
File Type: skp Proyecto1a.skp (660.1 KB, 118 views)
Old 11th February 2013
  #18
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looks like a decent plan. and you could use the open stair well for reverb when it's quiet
Old 11th February 2013
  #19
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Haha good point!!! ;)

-My idea with the CR and adjacent live room is to use 3 layers of drywall on walls and ceiling.
What would you do with the floor? These two rooms are on top of the drums room, and although I'm still waiting for the measurements, I would've thought the floor is going to be a weak link, right?

-Also, how do I run power, signal and data cables without rendering the insulation useless?

I'll try to post some photos of the real place this evening
Thanks for your help
Cheers
Sono
Attached Thumbnails
Two Floors Studio - Help Needed Please-dsc_1027.jpg   Two Floors Studio - Help Needed Please-dsc_1028.jpg   Two Floors Studio - Help Needed Please-dsc_1030.jpg   Two Floors Studio - Help Needed Please-dsc_1031.jpg   Two Floors Studio - Help Needed Please-dsc_1033.jpg  

Two Floors Studio - Help Needed Please-dsc_1034.jpg   Two Floors Studio - Help Needed Please-dsc_1035.jpg  

Last edited by sonolink; 11th February 2013 at 05:33 PM.. Reason: Added photos
Old 11th February 2013
  #20
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🎧 10 years
there might not be much you can do with the floor other than put in an impact layer (insulation/rubber etc under 2x 12mm plywood + finish floor) to reduce impact noise to the lower floor, then in the drum room you want a ceiling on the isolation walls (or suspended from the existing ceiling using isolators) to increase isolation for the drum room.
Old 11th February 2013
  #21
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And build the walls and ceiling on that impact layer? Or that would just be a like a floor on rigid insulation without contact with the walls?
Old 11th February 2013
  #22
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the upper room floor would be the impact floor - any walls would be on the existing floor with the impact floor inside not contacting the walls. there are more complex options like using isolators for decouple the walls from the floor. Rod has some nice examples in his book.
Old 11th February 2013
  #23
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🎧 5 years
Ok. Thanks for the input. I'll check Rod's book for the other floor options. I hope I can get the measurements done soon. In the meantime, may I ask you a couple more things?

-What acoustic treatment would you suggest for the live rooms? I guess plenty of bass trapping in all corners, laminated floor, absorbent ceiling, maybe some clouds, but would you use resonators or diffusers or anything else at all? What, how, where, how much/many?

-Aside from the actual insulation to be decided after the measurement, do you think it is worth considering drum and amp risers at all in the live rooms?

Thanks again for all your time and help
Cheers
Sono
Old 13th February 2013
  #24
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yes - the drum and amp risers

for treatment in the live room - polys on the corners and walls with scattered absorber between them. on the ceiling - open polys and scattered absorption hung on different levels. the polys can be solid or slats (see example photo) which can be defined for a range of frequency.
Attached Thumbnails
Two Floors Studio - Help Needed Please-img_1516.jpg  
Old 13th February 2013
  #25
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Ok. Sorry about the language barrier again...
Polys? You mean a broadband resonator such as this?
http://www.sae.edu/reference_materia.../Resonator.gif
Old 13th February 2013
  #26
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polycylindrical - a curved panel which provides diffusion and absorption. here's a picture of a live room where we placed a number of them
Attached Thumbnails
Two Floors Studio - Help Needed Please-img_1821.jpg  
Old 13th February 2013 | Show parent
  #27
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonolink ➑️
You mean a broadband resonator such as this?
http://www.sae.edu/reference_materia.../Resonator.gif
this is not a poly but you can incorporate a slat resonator into one.
Old 13th February 2013
  #28
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That looks sehr schΓΆne indeed....must sound great too
Are those beauties DIYable at all?
Old 13th February 2013
  #29
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the person had access to a friend who ran a CNC business so I output the DWG files needed for a machine that could cut all 30 or so units in a day. then assembly took a week or two since there is a lot of bending and glue, screws, insulation etc to put all the bits together. overall the room is fully live but very even in terms of frequency response and a smooth trail off.
Old 13th February 2013
  #30
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🎧 5 years
Glenn,
I really appreciate your advice and I'm thankful for the ideas but bending wood sounds a bit too far away for my skills...
Is that the only way to get a clear and even sounding live room for recording and rehearsing?
Cheers
Sono
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