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Studio Floor Advise Neeeded
Old 6th February 2013
  #31
Audio X
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod Gervais ➑️
Funny....... he has (apparently) had those speakers in that location for a while - and said he has had no problems working with them - and then questioned whether he was going to experience a problem due to them.

That is a completely valid response seeing as he never once said he was having an issue with his music translating.
Again,... you are assuming all of that to make yourself look right. He never said any of that.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/studi...rack-lcds.html

I find it funny that your doubling down on your recommendation which is totally whack, but then you think you make it a habit to call bs on other peoples stuff and then need to pull out your credentials... It's fatiguing...



OK. Now you are on my ignore list.
Old 6th February 2013 | Show parent
  #32
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Rod Gervais's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost Horses ➑️
Yep, just glad all this advice is pouring in!
lmfao......
Old 6th February 2013 | Show parent
  #33
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Rod Gervais's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audio X ➑️
Again,... you are assuming all of that to make yourself look right. He never said any of that.
Just in case you're peeking:

What he said was:

Quote:
I mostly concerned about the rack stand I've recently added - it is located between the monitors and I would like to know if this rack can alter the sound coming from monitors.
He never once (throughout his entire thread) has stated that he is actually having a problem......... I am not assuming that - and all of my responses have been with that in mind.

There is nothing wrong with pointing out that if a problem doesn't really exist that one should not create what is not there.....

That particular advice is still valid........

Sorry that you can't get your mind around it - but that is neither my nor the OP's problem.


Rod
Old 7th February 2013 | Show parent
  #34
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Ghost Horses's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod Gervais ➑️
lmfao......
Yeah, I say screw the floor! Break out the popcorn and enjoy The Slutz Slam Down 2013 available exclusively on Pay Per View!!! Lol
Old 7th February 2013 | Show parent
  #35
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Ghost Horses's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Just a thought, but I've dug around and talked to people who say resonance in there floors built like mine have not been an issue. Since I am assuming I "could" get LF resonance in my floor and I'm contumplating spending more money to fix a problem for all I know may or may not come up, couldn't I hold of on the mass? I was thinking I could lay my 23/32 subfloor, finish the walls, ceilings etc and save the extra floor layers for last? Then run some tests and see exactly what I am up against? If all goes well an LF are not a issue, I could lay my finished floor and be done with this saga and this thread could die and maybe Rod and Audio X could find another thread to argue in?!?!? I mean after all isn't it obvious that the 1,000 some views aren't here to help me, but only to read Rod and Audio X go back and forth in hopes that one may snap and challenge the other to a soundproofing show down!?!? I am only joking guys! I mean no harm! I do appreciate you guys taking the time to give me your advise! It means a lot that you would contribute a solution to my problem! As for the rubber neckers who have remained silent in my thread, "Move along their's nothing to see here!!!!"

But seriously, what are some thoughts at going about it with this approach?
Old 7th February 2013
  #36
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Rod Gervais's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Well there's the rub (as the saying goes).

I've thought about this myself a few times - wondering if there was a technique I could develop for a lightweight floor that would be non-resonant.

The potential problem is that in order to test this you would have to effectively seal the room - and that means installing the door (with all seals in place)- and that means framing for the door in the lower position - and finishing at least the drywall - and then a live test.

If it works - finish the room - if it doesn't - remove the door - remove a bit of drywall - change the rough opening for the door - raise the floor - etc.

Seeing as I am not building models to test - but am (rather) designing spaces for clients - I can't afford to take the chance......

And that's what you have here - a chance.

I would also (personally) be concerned about things outside of my control.

When I design a system for a client I am not in control of the physical construction of the product. As such my design has to be pretty much foolproof - I can't afford to begin designing systems that could be compromised via bad construction techniques.

Hey - if you want to give it a shot that's up to you........ and best of luck to you if you take that route.....

By the way - for what's it's worth - I never snap - never loose my cool - X on the other hand seems to go over the edge pretty easily........

Rod
Old 7th February 2013 | Show parent
  #37
Audio X
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost Horses ➑️
Just a thought, but I've dug around and talked to people who say resonance in there floors built like mine have not been an issue.
That just' IT.... They're are zero issues when constructed properly.

I know this because I have built similar floors in control rooms and mastering rooms - from the ground up. ...then I have proceeded to engineer in some of these rooms ..for years.. There are many world class rooms that have used the same floating floor technique described.

The goal is not to try to reinvent the wheel because of some paranoia propagated by internet hearsay.
Simple common sense usually will lead to the best solutions.

Part of the reason for me joining this thread in the first place was to throw some chum in the water and see where this term "drumhead" came from and what it was all about since I see it used a lot on the Internets.....though I'm still not sure of it's exact origin, .....it turns out it might have been from a guy who heard it from another guy who built a floor that sucked in 1979...
.. that's at least as far back as I can trace it at this point..

Consoles, walls, ceilings, speaker cabs all have resonances and are all by the same definition "drum heads".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost Horses ➑️
seriously, what are some thoughts at going about it with this approach?
My thought is to go ahead and build the floating floor like described in this thread.
I would not suggest it if I hadn't done it with success myself.

I can tell you without a doubt that having joist in your flooring will not in and of itself create one single abnormal problem that will translate negatively to the real world.
.. just avoid air space..make it rigid and with mass ..as you need or want..... common sense stuff.... GL

*Remember to run conduit with snakes in the floor for speaker cable or any other cable runs that will be convenient.
Old 7th February 2013
  #38
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Rod Gervais's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
So says the gent whose identify remains a mystery.....

Those of us who actually design spaces for a living tend to let it be known who we are.....

Rod
Old 7th February 2013 | Show parent
  #39
Audio X
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod Gervais ➑️
So says the gent whose identity remains a mystery.....

Those of us who actually design spaces for a living tend to let it be known who we are.....

Rod
I don't see why that matters?

It's ot, but of coarse you use your real name.. you're selling something.
The difference is... I'm not selling anything, nor am I looking for attention.
Old 7th February 2013
  #40
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Rod Gervais's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Sorry - I am not selling a single thing - I did not go looking to write a book - I was approached by my publisher and asked if I would be willing.

I have never (as in not once) suggested to a single person that they buy my book - nor my services.

You don't have a clue what you're talking about.

I joined here in 2003 - that would be 2 years before the book - and long before I ever contracted to design a studio.

Of course it doesn't surprise me your being wrong....... just interesting that you would make a foolish statement like that without bothering to do your homework.......

BTW - curious - what studios did you design - build from he ground up - and then work in?

Have a great day,

Rod
Old 7th February 2013 | Show parent
  #41
Audio X
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod Gervais ➑️
Sorry - I am not selling a single thing - I did not go looking to write a book - I was approached by my publisher and asked if I would be willing.

I have never (as in not once) suggested to a single person that they buy my book - nor my services.

You don't have a clue what you're talking about.

I joined here in 2003 - that would be 2 years before the book - and long before I ever contracted to design a studio.

Of course it doesn't surprise me your being wrong....... just interesting that you would make a foolish statement like that without bothering to do your homework.......

Have a great day,

Rod
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod Gervais ➑️

By the way - for what's it's worth - I never snap - never loose my cool - ........

Rod

Adios, X



lighten up mon.....
Old 7th February 2013
  #42
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Rod Gervais's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
LMFAO - you think that's a snap? You really are amusing - I'll give you that at least..

My pointing out that you don't have a clue what you speak of does not a snap make. The fact that you respond as you did only proves my point.

You really should do your homework before opening your mouth and inserting foot.......

Aww..... are you shy? Not going to tell us which studios you designed?

Rod
Old 7th February 2013
  #43
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8 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
So what has the OP decided to do in this case? Curious.

And I think that other guy put you on ignore - so he may not be seeing your posts.
Old 7th February 2013 | Show parent
  #44
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Rod Gervais's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianellefson ➑️
So what has the OP decided to do in this case? Curious.
I believe he is going to give it a shot.......

Quote:
And I think that other guy put you on ignore - so he may not be seeing your posts.
LOL....... well he said he was anyway - but if he did - how did he see and quote those last posts of mine he put up?

He must be peeking, yup - bet that's the case.........

Rod
Old 7th February 2013 | Show parent
  #45
Audio X
Guest
The "ignore" only works when you're signed in..

It's pretty useless.
Old 7th February 2013 | Show parent
  #46
Lives for gear
 
Rod Gervais's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audio X ➑️
The "ignore" only works when you're signed in..

It's pretty useless.
Maybe that's why I always sign in here before I post.........

Rod
Old 7th February 2013
  #47
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8 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Ahhhh you guys ....
Old 7th February 2013
  #48
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Rod Gervais's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Still waiting to find out what studios he designed...... can't understand why a person proud of his work would not jump for a chance to share it with the world.....

Rod
Old 8th February 2013
  #49
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Rod Gervais's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Tell you what - you're stuck with what you have - so why not just install blocking at the face of the walls and fill the whole thing with concrete ((a yard mix (yard mix refers to a concrete company not a yard of concrete) of non shrink grout would be better in the long run)) to the top of the joist - then install your plywood? This way nothing will/can resonate.

The joist should have a series of spikes driven in them so they can not freely move (read vibrate) when all is said and done.

This is probably your easiest guaranteed fix.

Rod
Old 8th February 2013
  #50
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Rod Gervais's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Actually there is an even easier guaranteed fix - and it would be a hell of a lot less expensive than the concrete - why not just seal the heck out of the perimeter and fill the thing with mason's sand, then plywood the top with a single layer and walk away from it?.

Cheap - easy - no muss - no fuss - and a perfectly damped deck.

Rod
Old 9th February 2013 | Show parent
  #51
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Yannick's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
That's what I would do. But if the OP is worried about the weight, what is wrong with the compressed rockwool I suggested ?

In what way is it substantially different from this drum riser:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/studi...ng-advice.html

In that thread you do confirm that it can be completely non resonant, and we are speaking of a 5x3m platform that is actually floating, as opposed to the floor in this thread.

I do not see much difference between 5x3 and 5x7 which is probably what we are talking about here.

Why can't it be light and -reasonably- non resonant ?
Old 9th February 2013 | Show parent
  #52
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Rod Gervais's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannick ➑️
That's what I would do. But if the OP is worried about the weight, what is wrong with the compressed rockwool I suggested ?

In what way is it substantially different from this drum riser:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/studi...ng-advice.html

In that thread you do confirm that it can be completely non resonant, and we are speaking of a 5x3m platform that is actually floating, as opposed to the floor in this thread.

I do not see much difference between 5x3 and 5x7 which is probably what we are talking about here.

Why can't it be light and -reasonably- non resonant ?
It appears to me he's talking about a lot more than 5x7. He's talking about a deck that is wall to wall based on my observations - otherwise he would not be concerned about load on the outside walls - however I might be mistaken on this - perhaps he can clarify.

He could fill the bays with that material - although leveling it would be a chore - however in my mind this is all about the least expensive manner to solve the problem.

If he put blocking in the bays at the perimeter of the deck that were tied into the joist instead of the walls - then there would be no weight trying to push the walls out - in which case the cheap mass gets the job done.

If he's nervous he can always do a double row of blocking. He does not have to put any pressure whatsoever on the outside walls.

Anyway you look at it the sand is the least expensive means of getting the job done (there is a reason they filled the decks at power station with sand when they had the problem - sand works and it's as "cheap as dirt")

Rod
Old 9th February 2013 | Show parent
  #53
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Yannick's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
That is absolutely correct, if one's back can take the load ...

Imo sand is a very much underused thing lately.
I used it in some spots as well, not in those kind of quantities though.
Old 9th February 2013
  #54
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Rod Gervais's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
They did it at Power Station NY - but that was only on the 3rd floor of the building in a 2,500 sf studio.....

BTW - I had a client in New Jersey run into the same problem they did at PSNY (this was about 5 years ago) who ended up having to rip up the decks. (They weren't a client until after the problem - I would never design a client into a corner like that, nor would I give a non-client advice like that.)

The owner contacted me for a solution after the problem surfaced - and they ended up simply ripping the decks out of a crap load of practice spaces when all was said and done.

And in their case there was no sloped slab - they were resting completely on a level concrete deck at ground level.

I forgot about that one until just now......

Rod
Old 11th February 2013 | Show parent
  #55
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🎧 5 years
Yeah, the sand was an issue with weight and tearing it out and leveling the concrete for one would end up costing just as much as adding mass to the subfloor. Also, their are some settling issues that need to be addressed and until I have the money, a deck is the way I have to go. Believe me, I am a perfectionist and doing it this way is bugging the Β£$%& out of me. It's just the way it has to be. We don't plan on staying in this house forever so dumping a lot of money into fixing the slab and not being guaranteed that it will not settle again is a gamble I am not willing to take.

Btw Rod, you are right it the deck does tie into the walls. I am going to have some flanking issues also because of that. A lot of things are hind sight on this studio because I didn't have the knowledge in the beginning that I do now that I've read books, did research on the net and digging around here. I have learned a lot and have a lot more to learn. Later on down the road when we move, I feel pretty good about knowing so much more then I did when I first started this studio. Ya gotta crawl before you can walk! Speaking of crawling, the whole reason I built this studio is because of my son. I had a studio set up in a spare bedroom and now my son needs a room. We have his crib in our bedroom. It's worked out fine because he wakes up in the middle of the night and needs to be fed or changed, etc. He's 8 months old now and the pressure is on to get my equipment out. Can't have him being 8 years old bunking up with his mommy and daddy. Lol!

Anyway, back on the floor... last night I started putting down the subfloor on the deck. Ironically I had a space heater hooked up and I heard something that sounded like a truck outside idling. Wrong, it was the space heater vibrating the deck and resonating in the cavity of the joists! Big surprise. I was hoping for a miracle, but I'll figure out something.
Good times, good times!!!

I came across a site that sold EPDM gym flooring for weight lifters and exercise equipment. Was thinking about what it could do for me in my situation. A part of me thinks it would suck all the highs out of the room and be a crap shoot for the lows.

This is only the first layer of plywood. After adding more mass and some GG things could change I guess. Then again... I guess we'll have to wait and see. I wrote GG and they suggested a underlayment of sorts in addition to GG and mass. Hate to drop that kinda money on MLV or the like. That's when I came across the gym floor EPDM and wondered if it could work, even though it wouldn't be a underlayment. Maybe it would kill two birds with one stone. I could spend around the same money, if not less on the finished floor using EPDM and it "may" help with LF. I know factory's use EPDM mats for machiary that vibrates and produces LFs. Thoughts on using it as a finished floor?
Old 11th February 2013 | Show parent
  #56
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Ghost Horses's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannick ➑️
That's what I would do. But if the OP is worried about the weight, what is wrong with the compressed rockwool I suggested ?

In what way is it substantially different from this drum riser:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/studi...ng-advice.html

In that thread you do confirm that it can be completely non resonant, and we are speaking of a 5x3m platform that is actually floating, as opposed to the floor in this thread.

I do not see much difference between 5x3 and 5x7 which is probably what we are talking about here.

Why can't it be light and -reasonably- non resonant ?
The floor is 11' 3" x 14' 8".
Old 11th February 2013 | Show parent
  #57
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AwwDeOhh's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost Horses ➑️
...
Can't have him being 8 years old bunking up with his mommy and daddy. Lol!
...
Well... you could...




... but not if he wants any future brothers or sisters
Old 11th February 2013 | Show parent
  #58
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Ghost Horses's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Btw, this is the floor I am talking about:

https://www.rubberflooringinc.com/ru...cial-roll.html
Old 11th February 2013 | Show parent
  #59
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Rod Gervais's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost Horses ➑️
Btw, this is the floor I am talking about:

https://www.rubberflooringinc.com/ru...cial-roll.html

I've never worked with the product - so take what I am about to say with a grain of salt -

My best guess is that this product would go a long way towards damping a floor....... much in the same way that a muffler does in damping a drum head.

Rod
Old 11th February 2013
  #60
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Rod Gervais's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
BTW - you will probably need to install a double layer of plywood over it to create a stable drum riser...... just trying to think ahead here..... but I don't know that I would want to do that for the entire floor - not sure if the product should be fully encapsulated or not - perhaps that would be a good question to ask the manufacturer if that is what you have in mind.....

Rod
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