The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
Green Glue application (anyone just trowel?)
Old 27th November 2012
  #1
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Green Glue application (anyone just trowel?)

I just purchased a 5 gallon bucket on Amazon for $215 plus around $15 shipping. I didn't purchase the applicator because I read in many, many places that it could be troweled on with a 1/8" v trowel.

I am now finding a lot of evidence to the contrary, which is pretty annoying, because I'll have to spend another $55 on the applicator, and will need to wait for the applicator to arrive before I can finish the job! Argh.

Has anyone troweled on their Green Glue instead of using the applicator?

I'm also wondering if I could use a water canon like the Stream Machine or Max Liquidator (works the same way as a bulk caulk applicator). They're under $10 vs. the $55 for the Green Glue applicator, and I could run out and get one right now (in hand in 15 minutes).

Any voices of experience would be greatly appreciated. Please don't bother responding with your opinion of Green Glue. I don't care if you think it works or not. I did the research. The scientific evidence is readily available. The stuff works when used properly (which is why I'm asking about the possibilities of troweling, which seems to be a point of conflicting opinions).

Thanks again.
Old 27th November 2012
  #2
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Not so sure about using 'water cannon' as an applicator ...

You might consider 'refillable caulk cartridges' ... saw this example on Amazon.
Amazon.com: FILLABLE CAULKING TUBE, 2 per pack: Sports & Outdoors

For my studio, I bought the GG in large caulk tubes.

No doubt the effectiveness of GG between drywall layers. Not cheap, but glad I did.

hope this helped
Old 27th November 2012
  #3
Registered User
 
🎧 15 years
GG is quite specific about exactly how to apply their product in order for it to work.... I would not vary from those recommendations.

It would not surprise me if they tested this in that manner when they were working their way through this and found that it did not work as well.

Rod
Old 27th November 2012
  #4
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Rod is exactly right.
Old 27th November 2012
  #5
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
I just did a little test patch with two different kinds of trowels (unfortunately I can't find my 1/8" v notch trowel at the moment, only a 1/16").

Here is a photo.



While the tiny tooth trowel seems like it would be WAY too little material, the 1/4" square seems pretty perfect.

I also think I may have an advantage here, in that I am applying the Green Glue in Colorado in November. The air temp is around 50 degrees, and thus, the viscosity of the goo is reduced. I assume the main reason Green Glue is recommending not using a trowel is due to the material's viscosity.

If they recommend cutting the tube nozzle to 3/8", I can't imagine why a 1/4" trowel wouldn't be the exact same thing (as seen in the photo above). What do you guys think?
Old 27th November 2012
  #6
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
What I think is that I co-founded the Green Glue Company and you need the gun.
Old 27th November 2012 | Show parent
  #7
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted White ➑️
What I think is that I co-founded the Green Glue Company and you need the gun.
Hi, Ted. Can you give a reason why? I'm not trying to be difficult, but the photo I just posted illustrates that the "bead" I'm getting with a trowel looks like it would be exactly the same as using a caulking tube.

I'm wondering if the temperature at which I'm applying the Green Glue changes the rules (the viscosity is reduced and thus the material is easier to handle, spread, and trowel).

Thanks so much for any insight you might be able to offer.
Old 27th November 2012 | Show parent
  #8
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RJHollins ➑️
Not so sure about using 'water cannon' as an applicator ...

You might consider 'refillable caulk cartridges' ... saw this example on Amazon.
Amazon.com: FILLABLE CAULKING TUBE, 2 per pack: Sports & Outdoors
I'm not sure how you fill those tubes, but it seems like getting green glue into those fillable caulk tubes would be a nightmare. The "water canon" thought was that they work the same as the applicator (draw the plunger back to fill the device) at 1/5 the price of the applicator.

I'm hoping it's a moot point though, as it seems like the "bead" I'm getting with a trowel could work (due to the lower temperature of the product right now).
Old 27th November 2012 | Show parent
  #9
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod Gervais ➑️
GG is quite specific about exactly how to apply their product in order for it to work.... I would not vary from those recommendations.

It would not surprise me if they tested this in that manner when they were working their way through this and found that it did not work as well.

Rod
Hi, Rod. Thanks so much for your response. I just finished building the Super Door from your book (still need to source the gasket material before finishing the jamb though), so it feels a little bit like getting a response from a celebrity. [smile]

I do realize it will be best to follow the manufacturer's recommendations, but I'm wondering if my particular situation is a little different as shown in my follow up post with the photo. The lower install temperature has greatly reduced the viscosity of the product, and the "bead" I am getting seems like it would be exactly the same as what would come out of a caulking tube nozzle.

I'm hoping we can get a follow up from Ted that's not just "because I said so," because I think the information could be very useful to other people in similar situations.

FWIW: I see on another forum (AVS), Ted posted a while back that the reason you need to use the gun is because Green Glue is "too loose, like ketchup." If that's the only reason, I'd like to know (because at 50 degrees it's actually not too loose and the trowel works perfectly). If the product's efficiency is reduced by the trowel application, I obviously don't want that. But if it's simply a material/handling issue, I'd really like to know (and I think other people would too).
Old 27th November 2012 | Show parent
  #10
Registered User
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidjedi ➑️
Hi, Rod. Thanks so much for your response. I just finished building the Super Door from your book (still need to source the gasket material before finishing the jamb though), so it feels a little bit like getting a response from a celebrity. [smile]

I do realize it will be best to follow the manufacturer's recommendations, but I'm wondering if my particular situation is a little different as shown in my follow up post with the photo. The lower install temperature has greatly reduced the viscosity of the product, and the "bead" I am getting seems like it would be exactly the same as what would come out of a caulking tube nozzle.

I'm hoping we can get a follow up from Ted that's not just "because I said so," because I think the information could be very useful to other people in similar situations.

FWIW: I see on another forum (AVS), Ted posted a while back that the reason you need to use the gun is because Green Glue is "too loose, like ketchup." If that's the only reason, I'd like to know (because at 50 degrees it's actually not too loose and the trowel works perfectly). If the product's efficiency is reduced by the trowel application, I obviously don't want that. But if it's simply a material/handling issue, I'd really like to know (and I think other people would too).
My comment had 2 parts...... the first had to do with the GG recommended application, the 2nd had to do with an assumption on my part.

When a company is in the development stages for a product like this they initially have no idea as to the success they will achieve when all is said and done - and would generally examine all of the possible means of applying the product to determine what the optimal application because that is in their own best interest.

Admittedly I was not involved in the testing process itself - however I was involved in review of the successful test results of the product as I was reviewing these results prior to the 1st edition of my book.

It would surprise the heck out of me if they had not examined this application because it would make perfect sense to use this application if it actually worked - especially if offering the product in 5 gallon pails.

The fact that this is not an approved application strongly suggests to me that this is the case - however - the fact that Ted responded (after my post) that I was exactly right - which would mean both parts of my post were correct - would indicate that this method was tested.

I can see a lot of difference between the application that would result by installing this product with a notched trowel and the application that results when applying it in accordance with the videos the company put together in order to leave no doubt as to what the result should be.

However - all of that being said - you can certainly do what you wish - however do it with the understanding that no one knows their product and how to apply it in order to maximize results better than the people who actually made it and brought it to market - so if you opt to install this in that manner expect to receive results that are not the same results you would get otherwise.

It's your choice - I know what I would choose - and would not be the use of a trowel.

Good luck,

rod
Old 27th November 2012 | Show parent
  #11
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod Gervais ➑️
It would surprise the heck out of me if they had not examined this application because it would make perfect sense to use this application if it actually worked - especially if offering the product in 5 gallon pails.

The fact that this is not an approved application strongly suggests to me that this is the case - however - the fact that Ted responded (after my post) that I was exactly right - which would mean both parts of my post were correct - would indicate that this method was tested.
Thanks for your thoughtful response, Rod. It seems to me though, that the reason they are suggesting a trowel doesn't work is because of viscosity, not effectiveness, and that's what I'm trying to find out.

I'm simply trying to find out the reason behind the comment, as a more thorough explanation will help people with the same question.

It wouldn't be very realistic to think that a person would lower the temperature of a room simply to be able to apply Green Glue with a trowel, but if one is "lucky" enough to reap the benefits of lowered viscosity because of lower temperature, it seems a superior method of application (faster, cheaper, easier). I suppose one could stick the bucket in a fridge overnight, but that's probably not a very realistic expectation either.

Again, "The fact that this is not an approved application strongly suggests to me that this is the case," might not apply, because lower the temperature of the product is not a very efficient thing to do, and thus probably was not on the list of things to test.

As mentioned in my follow up posts in this thread, in previous responses elsewhere, Ted has suggested that the reason a trowel won't work is Green Glue is "loose. Like ketchup." If that's the only reason not to use a trowel, then it doesn't apply to this application (because it's not loose like ketchup at a lower temperature).

Hopefully there is more information to be learned regarding the issue.
Old 27th November 2012
  #12
Lives for gear
 
mlange's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
The random nature of the "spagetti-ed" applicator is the first thing that comes to mind.

The trowel would be very consistent...... ie, not random!
Old 27th November 2012
  #13
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
It's u'r money & build.
U get 1 shot to do it right.

Instead of wasting breath to convince anyone of u'r concept, I'd call GG direct (or their main rep - as I did when I researched for my build) and get their response.
Then post here so we all know.
My application was as in their video, with 2 tubes per 4x8 sheet.

Remember , it takes so 30+ days to cure. Done properly (and quite easy really) the end result is great.
Old 28th November 2012
  #14
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Oh btw, I'm recalling my inquire.

There is a reason to appy as they instruct. Nothing to do with temperature. Watch the video to learn how to use their product correctly.
Old 28th November 2012 | Show parent
  #15
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RJHollins ➑️
Instead of wasting breath to convince anyone of u'r concept, I'd call GG direct (or their main rep - as I did when I researched for my build) and get their response.
I'm not trying to convince anyone of a concept. I'm trying to get answers regarding something that might not have come up in the original tests run on the product (lowering the temp to lower viscosity, thus making a trowel a viable delivery method). Since Ted stated clearly that he co-founded the company, I thought perhaps posting here (for all to see and share) would be a quicker route to getting the answers (for myself and everyone else) "directly" from Green Glue regarding this issue.
Old 28th November 2012 | Show parent
  #16
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RJHollins ➑️
There is a reason to appy as they instruct.
There is? What is it? Because that's exactly the information that I'm after and can't seem to find anywhere.

There seem to be a lot of people saying "there's a reason," but no one knows what that reason is (only that Green Glue couldn't must have tested ALL possible scenarios)!

I'm simply trying to find the best answer to the issue of lowered viscosity due to lowered temperature (which may or may not have come up in Green Glue's testing or "third party" testing of the material).

The "random application" of the spaghetti style seems a good guess, but there's nothing in the data that would suggest this is the case (that the "random" pattern would need to be Jackson Pollock style). I'm sure there would be issues with dragging the trowel all the way down the drywall sheet so the "beads" all go in one direction, but I had intended to trowel like you would other similar products (multiple directions in many locations), so it would still be a fairly random application, even with a trowel.

I realize I am to the point of "beating a dead horse" here, but the issue of the trowel is one that comes up again and again in various forums and is even posted as a suggested application method by "licensed resellers," so I think it's quite pertinent to get a definitive answer on the topic.
Old 28th November 2012
  #17
Lives for gear
 
Yannick's Avatar
 
🎧 20 years
The thing is, it is clearly mentioned on their site and in some vids they have online, you need to apply the correct amount (which is easy using the gun or the tubes) AND you need to apply it chaotically (probably spreading resonances and not creating equal segments between the two layers).
Old 28th November 2012 | Show parent
  #18
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannick ➑️
The thing is, it is clearly mentioned on their site and in some vids they have online, you need to apply the correct amount (which is easy using the gun or the tubes) AND you need to apply it chaotically (probably spreading resonances and not creating equal segments between the two layers).
I would absolutely concur that the "amount" is a good reason to go with the applicators, but it would be fairly easy to measure out 32 oz. without them.
Old 28th November 2012
  #19
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Recall from my research ... There is reason to the 'chaotic spaghetti' technique. From GG, themselves' stating to me, that the 'randomness' adds to the effectiveness.

GreenGlue is NOT to be painted on the surface [even if done with ridges from a trawl]. They specifically state in the instructions the method to apply the material.

With all the 'voodoo' out there, I find it hard to believe that comprehensive testing was not performed ... because it has. You can request their test data.
Old 28th November 2012 | Show parent
  #20
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RJHollins ➑️
Recall from my research ... There is reason to the 'chaotic spaghetti' technique. From GG, themselves' stating to me, that the 'randomness' adds to the effectiveness.

GreenGlue is NOT to be painted on the surface [even if done with ridges from a trawl]. They specifically state in the instructions the method to apply the material.

With all the 'voodoo' out there, I find it hard to believe that comprehensive testing was not performed ... because it has. You can request their test data.
Thanks for the follow up, RJ... as mentioned, I definitely read all the test data, I just didn't find anything regarding lowered viscosity because of lowered temperatures (which would allow for use of a trowel, and a random application could still be achieved with the prescribed amounts and bead size). Ted has been great with his response over on the other forum, and I think the definitive answer to "why not a trowel if the viscosity is lowered?" is that the lower temperature is actually not good for the installation as it will affect the compression of the product. Thus, I will be using the applicator and raising the temperature of the room (and product).

Thanks, all, for your input and help!
Old 28th November 2012 | Show parent
  #21
Gear Guru
 
lucey's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted White ➑️
What I think is that I co-founded the Green Glue Company and you need the gun.
Ted I'm helping a friend with his stage build, and he was told by the Sound Isolation Store than 1/8" square trowel is best for heavy applications between sub floor layers ... you're saying that's wrong and he needs a gun for sure?

If so, it's frustrating that salespeople are not trained on this ...

thank you,
Old 28th November 2012
  #22
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Brian, you have no idea how frustrating. We are constantly (no exaggeration) being asked for information after people buy products elsewhere.

Any damping compound needs to be laid out with 3/8" fat beads. We tested this years ago, hence the established 3/8" bead.
Old 4th December 2012 | Show parent
  #23
Gear Guru
 
lucey's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted White ➑️
Brian, you have no idea how frustrating. We are constantly (no exaggeration) being asked for information after people buy products elsewhere.

Any damping compound needs to be laid out with 3/8" fat beads. We tested this years ago, hence the established 3/8" bead.
I get it.

Here's what they said (Sound Isolation store) "the product was designed to be troweled and in tests it was found that a 1 STC point advantage is possible with the bead."
Old 4th December 2012
  #24
Registered User
 
🎧 15 years
It sounds to me like GG needs to get a handle on what their retailers are saying regarding this product.

Back in the beginning I could see this happening - however not so sure since Saint-Gobain took over the reins.

Rod
Old 4th December 2012
  #25
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
The product was not designed to trowel. Back in 2003 and 2004 when we launched Green Glue the product was sold in 5 gallon pails exclusively and a trowel was attached to the top of every pail. After the realization that this was not as optimal as possible, the Green Glue formulation was reconfigured to be dispensed with a large 3/8" bead. That was the last formulation change and is what you find today.

The product is optimally applied with a fat 3/8" bead
Old 5th December 2012
  #26
Registered User
 
🎧 15 years
Had me a feeling regarding that testing - thanks for clearing that up Ted..... +1

Rod
Old 5th December 2012
  #27
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Ah yes, back in the beginning... what I recall is your were a fantastic helpful resource back then, too.
Old 5th December 2012
  #28
Registered User
 
🎧 15 years
Ted,

lol - I don't know about that - but I do remember that I was pretty much a PITA.... story of my life.....

Actually - you guys were fantastic when it came to providing me the results of everything going on at the time.

Rod
Old 5th December 2012
  #29
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Not many people are interested in actual data, so it's memorable to find a resonance with someone that's interested. I can say resonance, can't I?
Old 5th December 2012
  #30
Registered User
 
🎧 15 years
lmao......
πŸ“ Reply

Similar Threads

Thread / Thread Starter Replies / Views Last Post
replies: 56177 views: 4228196
Avatar for zwap
zwap 45 minutes ago
replies: 36134 views: 4153300
Avatar for TheTruffleKing
TheTruffleKing 3 hours ago
replies: 91 views: 6206
Avatar for bluecataudio
bluecataudio 1 week ago
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearspace Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…

Forum Jump
Forum Jump