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DIY Sound Diffusers—Free Blueprints—Slim, Optimized DIY Diffuser Designs (+Fractals)
Old 4th March 2015 | Show parent
  #571
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Jens Eklund's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
May I suggest that you consider reorientation, since your current plan will be quite problematic.

Even though we often want to shoot down the length of a room, this in not always the best setup if critical surfaces related to early reflections cannot be treated properly (like windows, doors etc.). Using another orientation allows you to properly address early reflections and will still be able to use diffusers behind you. Placing the monitors at a distance away from the front wall is seldom a good idea due to SBIR related issues that comes with it. Unless you use separate subs (located at the front wall) and cross over fairly high (and are able to signal align them with the satellites properly); placing the speakers at a distance away from the front walls is almost never a positive thing from an acoustic perspective.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Alternative.pdf (15.4 KB, 454 views)
Old 4th March 2015 | Show parent
  #572
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🎧 5 years
Lightbulb

[QUOTE=Jens Eklund;10865809]May I suggest that you consider reorientation, since your current plan will be quite problematic.

Thank you for the suggestion Jens. I had not even considered that. There is a but though and it is probably a game changer. Unlike most of the very knowledgeable participants in this forum I'm not building a studio. It is "just" a listening room, meant to enable enjoyment of other peoples talents. The reason I have a fondness for Gearslutz is that here, theory becomes well documented reality, unlike most other forums concerned with audio.

The speakers are floor-standing and in my subjective opinion need some space to breath, to play their best. I like the idea of taking the windows out of the equation that a reorientation would bring. But I'm not sure that the width of the room will provide enough space between diffuser, listening possition, speakers and front wall.

I might totally be barking up the wrong tree with diffusion. Before my first post I thought I had my sound improvement path clear. It has just gotten a lot bumpier.

Maybe this is the subject for a new thread, but I appreciate your thoughts and ideas.
Old 4th March 2015 | Show parent
  #573
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by EA SWE ➡️
The speakers are floor-standing and in my subjective opinion need some space to breath, to play their best. .
Hello,

The distance between the speaker (front) and the wall behind the speaker, give the quarter of the first wave lenght annulation.

For 1m the first annulation is +/- 86hz.

sorry, the breath speaker is an urban legend.
Old 5th March 2015 | Show parent
  #574
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🎧 5 years
Question

[QUOTE=dinococcus;10866436]

The distance between the speaker (front) and the wall behind the speaker, give the quarter of the first wave lenght annulation.

For 1m the first annulation is +/- 86hz.


Dinococcus, please elaborate. I'm not familiar with wave length annulation. What it is and what it effects, is effected by etc. I feel there is an important point being made that could be very useful to understand.

Thank you
Old 5th March 2015 | Show parent
  #575
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🎧 5 years
[QUOTE=EA SWE;10868781]
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinococcus ➡️

The distance between the speaker (front) and the wall behind the speaker, give the quarter of the first wave lenght annulation.

For 1m the first annulation is +/- 86hz.


Dinococcus, please elaborate. I'm not familiar with wave length annulation. What it is and what it effects, is effected by etc. I feel there is an important point being made that could be very useful to understand.

Thank you
hello,

A drawing is better than words.

In red, the bad location.
In bleu, the acceptable location.
In green, the better location.

http://www.neumann-kh-line.com/klein...cation_v02.pdf
Old 5th March 2015 | Show parent
  #576
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Jens Eklund's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by EA SWE ➡️
Thank you for the suggestion Jens. I had not even considered that. There is a but though and it is probably a game changer. Unlike most of the very knowledgeable participants in this forum I'm not building a studio. It is "just" a listening room, meant to enable enjoyment of other peoples talents. The reason I have a fondness for Gearslutz is that here, theory becomes well documented reality, unlike most other forums concerned with audio.

The speakers are floor-standing and in my subjective opinion need some space to breath, to play their best. I like the idea of taking the windows out of the equation that a reorientation would bring. But I'm not sure that the width of the room will provide enough space between diffuser, listening possition, speakers and front wall.

I might totally be barking up the wrong tree with diffusion. Before my first post I thought I had my sound improvement path clear. It has just gotten a lot bumpier.

Maybe this is the subject for a new thread, but I appreciate your thoughts and ideas.
Ok, so if we´re talking about a listening room, perhaps you might want to expand the listening triangle a bit but then there’s a risk of ending up too close to the first axial node on the length (referring to length as the 4,7 m dimension now) and since your already in the node of the first (and third, fifth etc.) axial width (5,9 m) mode (and also naturally in the anti-nodes of all even order axial width modes) this might be problematic. This is why we try to stay clear of the center of a room.

I would not recommend a speaker position at a distance from the front wall (unless subs are in use as stated previously) due to the SBIR issues related to it. There might be exceptions to this (due to possibly lossy walls offering a complex impedance for example) but in general it´s not a good idea. You either want to place the source so close to the wall (or preferably in it, as you see in studio control rooms) so that the low frequency reflection interferes with the direct sound in a constructive phase relation, simply adding to the output in the entire low frequency range, or; so far away from the surface that the cancellation (due to the direct sound and the reflected sound being out of phase with each outer) occur below the frequency range you want the source to reproduce and/or that the reflection is attenuated enough (by treatment and/or simply by the distance).

The size of the listening triangle in the attached example is the largest I would go, preferably a bit smaller (in order to avoid the first length node), but even if as large as the example shows; the ISD-gap (assuming you treat surfaces related to early reflections) would end up being about 15 ms which is absolutely fine. If lower than about 10-12 ms, I usually resort to other options when I design control rooms (if the ISD-gap length is not dictated by a recording room connected to the control room).

You could naturally go beyond the center of the room (listening position) but then you would end up too close to the rear wall to be able to use diffusers in a constructive way … in my opinion. I would then use a thick absorber on the center section of the rear wall and possibly try to use 1D diffusers on the rear side walls (but I probably wouldn’t do this in a control room since the scattered energy would probably arrive too soon).

More on diffuser placement here: 1D diffusor - vertical or horizontal?
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Alternative 2.pdf (15.3 KB, 265 views)
Old 6th March 2015 | Show parent
  #577
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🎧 5 years
Ok! Just finished it. I'll just give you a brief overview of my experience.

The blueprints were easy to follow. I had some trouble with how to cut the wood, mostly because I haven't really done any kind of woodworking since high school shop class. But luckily my roommate has a bunch of saws and stuff. I initially used a skill saw to cross cut the planks of plywood (diffusers are 2 ft tall), but I wasn't very good at keeping it straight so the bottoms are a little uneven. Switched to the table saw instead which was much easier and I really should have done all the cutting on that.

After the wood was cut I put a wood veneer on the edges, stained them all, then glued it together. Then I put a few coats of polyurethane over it, and that's it! I didn't really account for the edges of the middle diffuser so I ran out of wood. I had to use some cheap plywood that was lying around, so the grain doesn't really match, but I don't think it's that noticeable. I attached them with some corner brackets since glue alone didn't really hold them on. I screwed some wood to the back of the middle one to make it protrude about 3".

I was a little concerned about mounting since I didn't want to put too many holes in the wall, but my roommate had a great idea with this industrial velcro he has from his work. It worked really well, and it'll pretty much rip the paint off the wall before they fall down (once you place them though it's almost impossible to adjust it).

I'm really happy with the way it came out, thanks for the great blueprints!
(total cost ~$80)
Attached Thumbnails
DIY Sound Diffusers—Free Blueprints—Slim, Optimized DIY Diffuser Designs (+Fractals)-img_0075.jpg   DIY Sound Diffusers—Free Blueprints—Slim, Optimized DIY Diffuser Designs (+Fractals)-img_0074.jpg   DIY Sound Diffusers—Free Blueprints—Slim, Optimized DIY Diffuser Designs (+Fractals)-img_0072.jpg   DIY Sound Diffusers—Free Blueprints—Slim, Optimized DIY Diffuser Designs (+Fractals)-img_0066.jpg  
Old 6th March 2015
  #578
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🎧 5 years
Hello,

How can i measure the performances a schroeder or a DiY Diffuser Blueprints with Room Eq Wizard ?

Thank you.
Old 6th March 2015 | Show parent
  #579
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Arqen's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Speaker distance from wall

Quote:
Originally Posted by EA SWE ➡️

Quote:
Originally Posted by dinococcus ➡️
Hello,

The distance between the speaker (front) and the wall behind the speaker, give the quarter of the first wave lenght annulation.

For 1m the first annulation is +/- 86hz.

sorry, the breath speaker is an urban legend.
Dinococcus, please elaborate. I'm not familiar with wave length annulation. What it is and what it effects, is effected by etc. I feel there is an important point being made that could be very useful to understand.

Thank you



He's referring to cancellation notches caused by speaker boundary interference response (SBIR).

I've illustrated the 3 options for dealing with SBIR here, including equations so you can calculate the cancellation frequencies.

The option that makes most sense for you is what Jens suggested: place the speakers close to the wall to move the cancellation notch to a higher frequency.

If you instead want to place it far from the wall, you can calculate the recommended minimum distance in meters using:

dmin = 1.4(343) / 4f-3dB

Where f-3dB is the low cutoff frequency of the speaker.

Often the room is not big enough to make dmin practical, so the best option (next to flush mounting) is to put the speakers against the wall.

Last edited by Arqen; 6th March 2015 at 10:39 AM..
Old 6th March 2015 | Show parent
  #580
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Arqen's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by EA SWE ➡️
The speakers are floor-standing and in my subjective opinion need some space to breath, to play their best. I like the idea of taking the windows out of the equation that a reorientation would bring. But I'm not sure that the width of the room will provide enough space between diffuser, listening possition, speakers and front wall.
I agree with Jens' recommendations, if you're looking for the best sound. If you prefer to keep your original orientation and place your speakers further from the wall (see the minimum distance equation in my last post), your listening position would be quite far back, so thick absorption should be used on the rear wall.

But if you use Jens' orientation the side walls are far enough away that you can make effective use of side wall diffusion and create a well defined ISD gap. It works out quite nicely.

You could test out both orientations but I think Jens' makes the best use of the space for high fidelity reproduction.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Eklund ➡️
The size of the listening triangle in the attached example is the largest I would go, preferably a bit smaller (in order to avoid the first length node), but even if as large as the example shows; the ISD-gap (assuming you treat surfaces related to early reflections) would end up being about 15 ms which is absolutely fine. If lower than about 10-12 ms, I usually resort to other options when I design control rooms (if the ISD-gap length is not dictated by a recording room connected to the control room).

You could naturally go beyond the center of the room (listening position) but then you would end up too close to the rear wall to be able to use diffusers in a constructive way … in my opinion. I would then use a thick absorber on the center section of the rear wall and possibly try to use 1D diffusers on the rear side walls (but I probably wouldn’t do this in a control room since the scattered energy would probably arrive too soon).

More on diffuser placement here: 1D diffusor - vertical or horizontal?
Jens, thanks for going out of your way to provide these fantastic, detailed suggestions.
Old 6th March 2015 | Show parent
  #581
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Jens Eklund's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arqen ➡️
Jens, thanks for going out of your way to provide these fantastic, detailed suggestions.
Right back atcha!
Old 6th March 2015 | Show parent
  #582
Gear Addict
 
Arqen's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick_B ➡️
Ok! Just finished it. I'll just give you a brief overview of my experience.

The blueprints were easy to follow. I had some trouble with how to cut the wood, mostly because I haven't really done any kind of woodworking since high school shop class. But luckily my roommate has a bunch of saws and stuff. I initially used a skill saw to cross cut the planks of plywood (diffusers are 2 ft tall), but I wasn't very good at keeping it straight so the bottoms are a little uneven. Switched to the table saw instead which was much easier and I really should have done all the cutting on that.

After the wood was cut I put a wood veneer on the edges, stained them all, then glued it together. Then I put a few coats of polyurethane over it, and that's it! I didn't really account for the edges of the middle diffuser so I ran out of wood. I had to use some cheap plywood that was lying around, so the grain doesn't really match, but I don't think it's that noticeable. I attached them with some corner brackets since glue alone didn't really hold them on. I screwed some wood to the back of the middle one to make it protrude about 3".

I was a little concerned about mounting since I didn't want to put too many holes in the wall, but my roommate had a great idea with this industrial velcro he has from his work. It worked really well, and it'll pretty much rip the paint off the wall before they fall down (once you place them though it's almost impossible to adjust it).

I'm really happy with the way it came out, thanks for the great blueprints!
(total cost ~$80)
Looks great, Nick.

Every audio head should have acoustic treatment around their bed!

Cool idea to use industrial velcro. I've used that stuff to attach knee pads and gear inside canoes. It's very strong and can be brutal to undo.
Old 6th March 2015 | Show parent
  #583
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Arqen's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Measuring the sound diffusion coefficient

Quote:
Originally Posted by dinococcus ➡️
Hello,

How can i measure the performances a schroeder or a DiY Diffuser Blueprints with Room Eq Wizard ?

Thank you.
The easiest way to test out diffuser designs is to model them using the trial version of AFMG Reflex.

Here's a tutorial: diffusion coefficient measurement using AFMG Reflex

If you want to measure the diffusion coefficients using real world diffusers, well... you need a very controlled setup and an array of 37 measurement microphones. This white paper by RPG explains how it's done in professional acoustic test labs.

The first method is MUCH easier for those of us who don't need lab-validated results.

Last edited by Arqen; 6th March 2015 at 11:08 AM..
Old 6th March 2015 | Show parent
  #584
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🎧 5 years
Yes, for the first method. I am not a specialist.

Thank you
Old 6th March 2015 | Show parent
  #585
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🎧 5 years
my rear wall is far 3 meters from my listening position. This distance is she adequat for an implementation of diffusor ?

Thank you.


the response

http://arqen.com/sound-diffusers/faq...ening-distance


Sorry

Last edited by dinococcus; 6th March 2015 at 11:17 AM.. Reason: the response
Old 6th March 2015 | Show parent
  #586
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Arqen's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinococcus ➡️
Yes, for the first method. I am not a specialist.

Thank you
My pleasure.
FYI, last I checked there are two free versions of Reflex: the 30 day trial and the free version.
I recommend the 30 day trial because the free version limits the size of diffuser you can simulate.
Old 6th March 2015 | Show parent
  #587
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Arqen's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinococcus ➡️
my rear wall is far 3 meters from my listening position. This distance is she adequat for an implementation of diffusor ?

Thank you.


the response

DIY Sound Diffusers FAQ


Sorry
Yes. 3 meters is a good listening distance.
Old 6th March 2015 | Show parent
  #588
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Jens Eklund's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arqen ➡️
The easiest way to test out diffuser designs is to model them using the trial version of AFMG Reflex.

Here's a tutorial: diffusion coefficient measurement using AFMG Reflex

If you want to measure the diffusion coefficients using real world diffusers, well... you need a very controlled setup and an array of 37 measurement microphones. This white paper by RPG explains how it's done in professional acoustic test labs.

The first method is MUCH easier for those of us who don't need lab-validated results.
+1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Eklund ➡️
BEM models are pretty close to actual measurements and thus frequently used to predict scattering and diffusion performance (at least spatial) and to quote Peter and Trevor (AAaD, 2nd ED):

"When BEMs are applied to diffusers remarkable accuracy is achieved. The accuracy is much better than most acousticians are used to achieving from an acoustic theory. Acousticians are used to using empirical fixes to make measurements match predictions, but that is not often needed when BEMs are used to predict diffuser scattering."
To actually measure the performance of a diffuser array is a pain in the ... especially if you don´t have access to a 37 mic and speaker array ...





If I ever do it again, I will definitely build at least the mic array, since then you "only" need to do 111 takes ... (37x3; empty, reference reflector and sample).
Old 6th March 2015 | Show parent
  #589
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🎧 5 years
naively, i thought with an ETC, we could see an effect on the reflexions.
I find strange that all the papers i read, show protocols of measurements in reverberant room, never in semi reverberant room.
Old 6th March 2015 | Show parent
  #590
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Jens Eklund's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinococcus ➡️
naively, i thought with an ETC, we could see an effect on the reflexions.
I find strange that all the papers i read, show protocols of measurements in reverberant room, never in semi reverberant room.
Yes, the ETC is a valuable tool for observing the diffused return in general. The rooms used for measuring diffusion need to be large so that you can gate the impulse, only using the direct return from the panels, not the return from the room

But there are methods of evaluating diffuser performance in reverberation chambers also.
Old 6th March 2015 | Show parent
  #591
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🎧 5 years
Thank you.

I afraid that when you say "Large", this is bigger than 36 m² (first room) or 70 m² (second room) ?
Old 6th March 2015 | Show parent
  #592
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Arqen's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Acoustic measurements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Eklund ➡️
+1



To actually measure the performance of a diffuser array is a pain in the ... especially if you don´t have access to a 37 mic and speaker array ...





If I ever do it again, I will definitely build at least the mic array, since then you "only" need to do 111 takes ... (37x3; empty, reference reflector and sample).

Haha nice. I've done some tedious measurements but the number of takes was in the low hundreds, not thousands!

One problem I've run into with doing many takes is the steady increase in human error, causing a decrease in precision. On one project some people got frustrated and stopped caring, so the measurements started to get sloppy.

Apparently some humans don't like to work late into the night doing the same thing over and over again.
Old 6th March 2015 | Show parent
  #593
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🎧 5 years
Room size for diffusion coefficient measurement

Quote:
Originally Posted by dinococcus ➡️
Thank you.

I afraid that when you say "Large", this is bigger than 36 m² (first room) or 70 m² (second room) ?
I'd want a room bigger than both of those. From Figure 4.6 of the book Acoustic Absorbers and Diffusers (or Jens' photo), where the microphone radius is R and the loudspeaker radius is 2R you can calculate the size of room required.

If R = 5 m it requires a very big room: 12.2 m high, 24.4 m wide, 25 m long. Measurements have been done at 1:5 scale with R = 1 m. But for measuring a full sized diffuser array you want R larger than that.

If R = 2.5 m (which is the radius at which the Leanfuser was optimized), you need a room 6.1 m high x 12.2 m wide x 12.5 m long.

Last edited by Arqen; 7th March 2015 at 12:10 AM..
Old 7th March 2015 | Show parent
  #594
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🎧 10 years
Thank OP for the info/hard work.
I'm still getting my head around all of this, but it appears as though the N=36 optimized stepped diffuser, designed by Trevor J. Cox (206.5 x 19.9cm) posted on pg 4 of this thread (sorry, I'm not allowed to post IMG files yet) may be ideal for my situation. I have a maximum width of 7'(214cm) on my back wall to use which is 14 ft behind my listening position for mixing...the size/use appears perfect!

If you could provide specs on the well depths, it would be greatly appreciated.

Just to be certain, if I have to downsize this some based on ease of construction/availability of materials (if my math is correct - 5.9cm or 2.3228" channel width), any percentage change in width, would also be required for depth; and its a good idea to keep each channel at least 4cm wide - is this correct?
Old 7th March 2015 | Show parent
  #595
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Jens Eklund's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arqen ➡️
Apparently some humans dont like to work late into the night doing the same thing over and over again.
Tell me about it! What's up with that? ... a mystery to me.
Old 7th March 2015 | Show parent
  #596
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmore ➡️
Thank OP for the info/hard work.
I'm still getting my head around all of this, but it appears as though the N=36 optimized stepped diffuser, designed by Trevor J. Cox (206.5 x 19.9cm) posted on pg 4 of this thread (sorry, I'm not allowed to post IMG files yet) may be ideal for my situation. I have a maximum width of 7'(214cm) on my back wall to use which is 14 ft behind my listening position for mixing...the size/use appears perfect!

If you could provide specs on the well depths, it would be greatly appreciated.

Just to be certain, if I have to downsize this some based on ease of construction/availability of materials (if my math is correct - 5.9cm or 2.3228" channel width), any percentage change in width, would also be required for depth; and its a good idea to keep each channel at least 4 cm wide - is this correct?
The well depths for that diffuser are in Table I here:
http://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/1664503.pdf
(N=36 Stepped Diffuser)

Yes, a change in width requires a proportional change in depth if you want to keep the same performance trends (shifted in frequency). But sometimes keeping the original depths results in better performance (even though the proportions change) and increased bandwidth. This is because if you decrease the width but keep the depth the same, the diffuser will have more overall depth and roughness than if you reduce both the width and depth. Surfaces with more roughness tend to diffuse better, and deeper diffusers can diffuse to lower frequencies.

I suggest you simulate your modified design using Reflex to test it out.

Yes, it's a good idea to keep each well at least 4 cm wide to prevent excessive absorption.

Last edited by Arqen; 7th March 2015 at 02:05 AM..
Old 7th March 2015
  #597
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🎧 10 years
Perfect - Thank you very much!

I'm going to build this with wood but on a slightly different note, I've got a friend who works heavily with hollow metal bars for furniture/art etc.(he built my studio desk foundation) interested in trying his hand at diffusers. For cost reasons, he mostly uses general imperial dimensions (1"x1", 2"x3" etc) although he can special order anything and some 'generic' metric is pretty reasonable (don't have specs but can get - would still be uniform square/rectangle). I think it could look very cool and the reflective properties wood be great and we've discussed filling with expanded foam(like on a motorcycle frame), to avoid 'ring' - he feels aluminum would probably be best. With what I've learned (and I still have a ways to go), a 2D QRD type seems easiest to try 1st, but if there's some step design where 'generic' imperial specs could work without a ton of cutting needed - please let me know and we may give it a shot.

Thanks again.
Old 7th March 2015 | Show parent
  #598
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmore ➡️
Perfect - Thank you very much!

I'm going to build this with wood but on a slightly different note, I've got a friend who works heavily with hollow metal bars for furniture/art etc.(he built my studio desk foundation) interested in trying his hand at diffusers. For cost reasons, he mostly uses general imperial dimensions (1"x1", 2"x3" etc) although he can special order anything and some 'generic' metric is pretty reasonable (don't have specs but can get - would still be uniform square/rectangle). I think it could look very cool and the reflective properties wood be great and we've discussed filling with expanded foam(like on a motorcycle frame), to avoid 'ring' - he feels aluminum would probably be best. With what I've learned (and I still have a ways to go), a 2D QRD type seems easiest to try 1st, but if there's some step design where 'generic' imperial specs could work without a ton of cutting needed - please let me know and we may give it a shot.

Thanks again.
Sounds cool! I've seen a couple people use sheet metal to build the Leanfuser and it worked well.

The only design I know where generic imperial specs work without a ton of cutting is the imperial version of the Leanfuser.

You just use 1/2" stock material for the standard unit of depth instead of 10 mm (and you keep the widths the same). This is an example where the proportions change without hurting the performance. The imperial version actually has slightly better performance due to an increase in overall depth and "roughness".
Old 7th March 2015
  #599
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🎧 10 years
Cool - I'll have to see what he has available to him that might keep the weight down.

If/when these get done - will post.

Thanks again
Old 17th May 2015
  #600
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🎧 5 years
Hello and good morning everyone!


First off, I just want to offer a massive "thank you" for the DIY diffuser designs.
Secondly, I was just wondering if anyone could assist me a bit in my designing of appropriate sound treatment.

This is currently what I've come up with: a checkerboard pattern with broadband sound absorption and diffusers intermingled. As an aside, any measurements are open to interpretation, and are not exact.
http://s28.postimg.org/ege1tl9wt/aco...tment_plan.png

My thinking is that I can sort of tame the unwanted reflects in my room while, at the same time, adding in more pleasant ambiance. I've made designs before that were inefficient, however, hence why I'm asking for some assistance (this is completely new territory for me.)


Thanks for your time and have a great day!
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