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Best Mix Room On The Planet!!?
Old 11th May 2011
  #1
Gear Nut
 
Nathan Vinall's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Best Mix Room On The Planet!!?

Okay this has always bugged me & maybe one of you guys can shed a little light on this....

Lets say money was no object (To which it should never be) and you had ample of land To build the best "Audio Mix Room" on the planet, what size, shape and dimensions would be used?

Now when I say best, I mean Scientifically (NASA) planned and constructed to produce a room with a complete flat response, etc etc... A perfect Audio Room!!

Is this possible and has it been achieved???

Hope this makes sense!?
Old 11th May 2011
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan Vinall ➡️
Lets say money was no object
Isn't money always a object ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan Vinall ➡️
what size, shape and dimensions would be used?
It would be the shapeless room called outer space, where bass traps, acoustic plates and room reflections wount be a issue.heh


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan Vinall ➡️
Now when I say best, I mean Scientifically (NASA) planned and constructed to produce a room with a complete flat response
Maby NASA better could answer this question ?
Old 11th May 2011 | Show parent
  #3
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Nathan Vinall's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisdee ➡️
Isn't money always a object ?



It would be the shapeless room called outer space, where bass traps, acoustic plates and room reflections wount be a issue.heh
Haha ****, I forgot to set that parameter!! EARTH BOUND STUDIO please, Sorry can't get into space as of now. Working on it though! heh



A wise man once said....Objects are only in ones mind!

I Wish I could find him, why that little *#$%#@!!!
Old 11th May 2011 | Show parent
  #4
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avare's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Blackbird Studios

Andre
Old 11th May 2011 | Show parent
  #5
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Jens Eklund's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by avare ➡️
Blackbird Studios
Have you heard it? Assuming you’re referring to Georges room.
Old 11th May 2011 | Show parent
  #6
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🎧 10 years
You did say best mixing from on the planet, so it's my bad.

I took the liberty of quoting out of context
Sorry
Old 11th May 2011
  #7
70% Coffee, 30% Beer
 
Doc Mixwell's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan Vinall ➡️
Okay this has always bugged me & maybe one of you guys can shed a little light on this....

Lets say money was no object (To which it should never be) and you had ample of land To build the best "Audio Mix Room" on the planet, what size, shape and dimensions would be used?

Now when I say best, I mean Scientifically (NASA) planned and constructed to produce a room with a complete flat response, etc etc... A perfect Audio Room!!

Is this possible and has it been achieved???

Hope this makes sense!?
I hear Yahweh has a pretty ill mixing suite in heaven.

It has no dimensions so there are no reflections at all. He's got some nice "clouds" hanging so as to prevent unwanted souls from whispering to loud. Think I'm going to rent his space for eternity at some point after my life. I'd hate to be stuck in the basement with Lucifer mixing She Bangs, by William Hung.
Old 11th May 2011 | Show parent
  #8
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Nathan Vinall's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell ➡️
I hear Yahweh has a pretty ill mixing suite in heaven.

It has no dimensions so there are no reflections at all. He's got some nice "clouds" hanging so as to prevent unwanted souls from whispering to loud. Think I'm going to rent his space for eternity at some point after my life. I'd hate to be stuck in the basement with Lucifer mixing She Bangs, by William Hung.
LOL Oh dear I really did ask the wrong question.

I get the joke and love em. But now stop F**kin around!!

Seriously I've done a ton of searching and reading etc etc, but most of what I read is contradicts itself. I also heard that an Acoustic engineer/designers definition of a flat room is 5db tolerance each way, so if that's the general opinion then maybe flat is not achievable or is it even desirable.?

For now forget about equipment, couches, studio crap, outer space or other dimenisional layers that gods dwell in..

I mean One man with a chair and a computer or whatever he can mix on.

Basicallly what Im asking is can someone come and build me a perfect mix room and put a great matched set of monitors to boot so I can just turn up and do my thing and maybe become a GOD LIKE BEING! heh
Old 11th May 2011 | Show parent
  #9
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Nathan Vinall's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by avare ➡️
Blackbird Studios

Andre
IS that In NASHVILLE?
Old 11th May 2011 | Show parent
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan Vinall ➡️
become a GOD LIKE BEING! heh
Who is joking now heh
Old 11th May 2011 | Show parent
  #11
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan Vinall ➡️
IS that In NASHVILLE?
Yes.

BLACKBIRD STUDIO

BTW, flat is not preferred for mixing rooms.

Andre
Old 11th May 2011 | Show parent
  #12
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audiothings's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Show me the 'best' woman in the world. I am in the marriage market heh

I guess you'd be looking at 8000+ cu. ft... probably a lot more before treatment. Gotta be rich and famous one of these days!
Old 11th May 2011 | Show parent
  #13
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Glenn Kuras's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by avare ➡️
Blackbird Studios

Andre
Have you been in that studio before? I have heard some people say it is awesome and others where so so about it. Personal preference I guess.
Old 11th May 2011 | Show parent
  #14
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Ethan Winer's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras ➡️
I have heard some people say it is awesome and others where so so about it. Personal preference I guess.
Exactly Glenn, which is why there's no possible answer to "what is best" with mix rooms. What's best for me may not be best for you, and vice versa. All practical rooms have compromises. By the time you make a room large enough to avoid all the typical small-room problems like modes and early reflections, it's too big to sound good (think gymnasium). You probably don't want to mix in an auditorium either. Or maybe you do? heh

--Ethan

________________
The Acoustic Treatment Experts
Old 11th May 2011 | Show parent
  #15
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Nathan Vinall's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer ➡️
Exactly Glenn, which is why there's no possible answer to "what is best" with mix rooms. What's best for me may not be best for you, and vice versa. All practical rooms have compromises. By the time you make a room large enough to avoid all the typical small-room problems like modes and early reflections, it's too big to sound good (think gymnasium). You probably don't want to mix in an auditorium either. Or maybe you do? heh

--Ethan

________________
The Acoustic Treatment Experts
Hhee. Sorry guys I should never have put the silly word 'Best". I did mean scientifically flat. And specially nothing related to human preferences.

But I gather from what you just saying no room under a certain size is ever going to be fully achievable: flat?

If that is the case is there an optimum size that one should aim for. Golden ratio type thing or does it all come down to trial an error?

A long time ago I read somewhere that the ancient Greeks had a formula for acoustical room dimensions?
Old 11th May 2011 | Show parent
  #16
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Ethan Winer's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan Vinall ➡️
I did mean scientifically flat.
You can definitely make any room flat with enough bass traps.

Quote:
If that is the case is there an optimum size that one should aim for. Golden ratio type thing or does it all come down to trial an error? A long time ago I read somewhere that the ancient Greeks had a formula for acoustical room dimensions?
There's a difference between overall size and ratios. But even the most "ideal" ratios have peaks and deep nulls unless you add a ton of bass traps. The main benefit of "good" ratios is to spread out the resonant peaks so they don't fall at the same frequencies which would make the net peak even larger.

--Ethan
Old 11th May 2011 | Show parent
  #17
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Nathan Vinall's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer ➡️
You can definitely make any room flat with enough bass traps.



There's a difference between overall size and ratios. But even the most "ideal" ratios have peaks and deep nulls unless you add a ton of bass traps. The main benefit of "good" ratios is to spread out the resonant peaks so they don't fall at the same frequencies which would make the net peak even larger.

--Ethan
Right Gotcha. Okay that clears that up. Thanks!

I was just curious as most studio have to take a lot of factors into consideration when build their rooms. I was maybe hoping that if those factors were removed out of the mix - pun intended - It would make for a more ideal space. Hope that makes sense.?

Would I be correct in thinking the smaller the space that more/heavier trapping is required?
Old 11th May 2011 | Show parent
  #18
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Nathan Vinall's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Actually you know what? The title of this thread is hideous! LOL Sorry!!


Ill get my coat.


Note to self: Don't create threads. EVER!
Old 11th May 2011 | Show parent
  #19
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Nathan Vinall's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by avare ➡️

BTW, flat is not preferred for mixing rooms.

Andre
Care to share... As in why flat would not be preferred for mixing rooms?
Old 11th May 2011 | Show parent
  #20
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Rod Gervais's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by avare ➡️
Yes.

BLACKBIRD STUDIO

BTW, flat is not preferred for mixing rooms.

Andre
Andre,

I would imagine that depends on the definition of flat.......

My clients love their control rooms - which is where they mix - and they range to within 3dB+/- of being dead flat......

My goal has always been to reproduce whatever comes out of the speakers as accurately as is possible.........

Let them adjust for the levels then as they desire - always knowing they have an accurate representation of whatever comes out of their speakers......

Now - although they are what I would describe as "flat" - they are also very lively rooms...... I do not deal in the semi-anechoic realm....

I do know that engineers from some of the best studios in the world have worked in at least one of my studios -and loved the control room (not as much as the tracking spaces - but that is a differently colored horse).

So I would suppose this is the same as most other things in music - more a matter of personal taste than convention...........

Sincerely,

Rod
Old 11th May 2011 | Show parent
  #21
Craneslut
 
Brad Blackwood's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod Gervais ➡️
My clients love their control rooms - which is where they mix - and they range to within 1 1/2dB+/- of being dead flat......
From what? DC to light? 100Hz-101Hz?

I'd LOVE to see an actual room plot of this as I've never heard of a designer that could get much better than +/-6dB in a real space, especially from 20-100Hz.

Call me a doubting Thomas, but your claim means you rooms are more accurate than almost any speaker on the market at any price...
Old 11th May 2011 | Show parent
  #22
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod Gervais ➡️
My clients love their control rooms - which is where they mix - and they range to within 1 1/2dB+/- of being dead flat......
Wow, that's impressive!

Pardon my ignorance, but I'm curious what type of measurement equipment (mic and speakers specifically - not software) are accurate enough themselves to empirically confirm such a narrow tolerance?

Z
Old 11th May 2011 | Show parent
  #23
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🎧 10 years
I would also want to see some measurements showing this kind of tolerance. Unless the room is quite dead, it sounds a bit unrealistic actually. +/- 3 dB is usually considered excellent.

I do however agree that flat is not always "boring" and in the top end, it depends on the kind of microphone you’re using. If flat in free field, it will not be give the right response in semi-diffuse field (and most rooms are not free field).
Old 11th May 2011 | Show parent
  #24
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avare's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan Vinall ➡️
Care to share... As in why flat would not be preferred for mixing rooms?
You want why, do a search on the internet, or read the B&K 17-197 Application note. It is from 1974!

Do you want what is considered preferred? Start with figs 1 and 2 in EBU Tech 3276. Note that these tolerances do not disagree with Rod's remarks about flat. Note that control rooms and mixing rooms have different criteria.

Rod: It is the all too often confusion from giving as in depth answer as a question is.

Andre
Attached Files
File Type: pdf B&K 17-197.pdf (4.62 MB, 633 views)
Old 11th May 2011 | Show parent
  #25
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e-cue's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod Gervais ➡️
My clients love their control rooms - which is where they mix - and they range to within 1 1/2dB+/- of being dead flat......
Unless your definition of "range" differs from mine, I call shenanigans.
Old 11th May 2011 | Show parent
  #26
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🎧 10 years
I´m curious about what is the standard smoothing a pro designer consider when measuring a room . +/-6 (1/48) looks around +/-2 (1/3) ...

Thanks

Ciro
Old 11th May 2011 | Show parent
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ciro ➡️
I´m curious about what is the standard smoothing a pro designer consider when measuring a room . +/-6 (1/48) looks around +/-2 (1/3) ...
I understand the curiosity. However, a professional standard was linked in my previous post. It details 1/3 octave measuring.

Andre
Old 12th May 2011 | Show parent
  #28
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Rod Gervais's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Blackwood ➡️
From what? DC to light? 100Hz-101Hz?

I'd LOVE to see an actual room plot of this as I've never heard of a designer that could get much better than +/-6dB in a real space, especially from 20-100Hz.

Call me a doubting Thomas, but your claim means you rooms are more accurate than almost any speaker on the market at any price...
Brad,

To begin I apologize - must be getting old - the boost to dip ratios was +3dB to minus 1.5dB - so actually +/- 3dB (2.25dB if you average)....... better start referencing the data before i respond.......... and to think I used to have a photographic memory........ heh

the studio is in Manila, and I did not do the testing there - they flew in some guru they trust from Munich to check out the control room when construction was completed...... The speakers are Barefoot MM27s, The also have some Genelec nearfield speakers - Michael Stavrou apparently did some tweaking of the speaker set-up back in 2009 (related to the nearfield set up not the Barefoots......... Dennis told me the sound in the back of the room is actually better with the Gens........

What I tell you is what they reported to me....... nothing more - nothing less........ I'm providing quotes from the emails they sent me.......

Quote:
Working now with an engineer from Air Studios London . . . he was blown away by your room and said it sounded totally transparent. He said it was one of the best studios he ever recorded at.
Quote:
ruler flat in front of the monitors but had a 125Hz bump at mix position. I moved the speakers back and fourth to find the most even spot. I in the end had to equalize by cutting 3dB at 125 and boosting 1.5dB 80Hz using a Meyer CP Room EQ
I would consider that relatively flat....... at least down to 80Hz....... then again he does not mention having to tweak below that.......... hmmmmm.......

Quote:
One thing I noticed at the couch you can hear a 3 - 4 dB boost at the lowest frequencies. I was hoping the bass traps would work on these, but apparently not
The couch is in the very back of the room......... which appears to be reasonably decent as well.....

Quote:
Some photos from the string session last night with Arnold. The string players said it was the most comfortable room they ever recorded in and marveled at how good their instruments sounded.

Arnold also was impressed that the playback sounded as good if not better than the strings in the room. I figured they compared us with GC4 and other studios. We should definitely do more of this kind of work here.
Now - I never reviewed the data they gathered - because (personally) it doesn't really mean that much to me....... the considered testing important - and thus brought in some people - for me it is much simpler than all that.......... from my perspective the best test in the world is whether an engineer can walk into one of my rooms and first song make a mix that translates perfectly outside of the room....... if that is the case the room is right and no reason to even bother shooting it to check it out....

If that is not the case - then there is a problem that has to be dealt with........

So far I must be very lucky - because I have never had to tweak anything in a room for my clients to get perfect mixes.....

They can't be too terribly unhappy with me or my designs - as I am currently under contract with them for 3 more mixing rooms (one a 5.1 configuration that will expand to 7.1) 2 Foley rooms and a voice over room for the AV side of their business.....

Construction on Phase II starts in 2 weeks......

Anyway - you might well doubt it - but my clients don't...... they are taking over the floor above the one I am currently designing within - and I will be designing them another (larger) recording studio at that location.......

BTW - just for the record - this client is not a "wanna-be" - his firm is one of the top AV and studio firms in Asia, they had over 40 people on staff last I knew- and consistently win awards in the field...... This was their first recording studio - and is constantly in use (again according to the owners.) So it is not as if they don't have a clue what they ended up with in the end.........


Onwards and Upwards............

Sincerely,

Rod
Old 12th May 2011 | Show parent
  #29
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ciro's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by avare ➡️
I understand the curiosity. However, a professional standard was linked in my previous post. It details 1/3 octave measuring.

Andre
Thanks Andre

Ciro
Old 12th May 2011 | Show parent
  #30
Gear Nut
 
Nathan Vinall's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Blackwood ➡️
From what? DC to light? 100Hz-101Hz?

I'd LOVE to see an actual room plot of this as I've never heard of a designer that could get much better than +/-6dB in a real space, especially from 20-100Hz.

Call me a doubting Thomas, but your claim means you rooms are more accurate than almost any speaker on the market at any price...
Thats exactly what I heard/read. 6db tolerance either way is classed as "Job done" Which could mean a possible 12db variation between some frequencies?

In this day and age why is flat so difficult. Should one build a room made of marshmallow or something! I mean maybe it needs solid rubber walls?

So is this the only scientific way to produce flat?

An anechoic chamber (an-echoic or non-echoing) is a room designed to stop reflections of either sound or electromagnetic waves. They are also insulated from exterior sources of noise. The combination of both aspects means they simulate a quiet open-space of infinite dimension, which is useful when exterior influences would otherwise give false results. According to Guinness World Records, 2005, Orfield Laboratory's NIST certified Eckel Industries-designed anechoic chamber is "The quietest place on earth" measured at −9.4 dBA

or

Semi-anechoic chambers
Full anechoic chambers aim to absorb energy in all directions. Semi-anechoic chambers have a solid floor that acts as a work surface for supporting heavy items, such as cars, washing machines, or industrial machinery, rather than the mesh floor grille over absorbent tiles found in full anechoic chambers. This floor is damped and floating on absorbent buffers to isolate it from outside vibration or electromagnetic signals. A recording studio may utilize a semi-anechoic chamber to produce high-quality music free of outside noise and unwanted echoes.

Avoiding False results sounds pretty good to me. I've never entered such a room, some Ive heard can be off putting. Where would one go to hear such a place?
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