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Room Measurement and treatment advice
Old 1 week ago
  #1
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
Room Measurement and treatment advice

Hi Everybody!

I would need some help, optimizing my recording/mixing room. I attached a REW-File with a reading from my listening-position (two readings from each speaker).
I calibrated everything and did the measurement as suggested on the REW-Homepage but as I'm no accoustic pro, I have some trouble reading the results correctly :-P.
I would be very glad if someone could explain where my problematic frequencies are and what I could do about it.

Test-Equipment
Monitor: RFT BR-25
Soundcard: Focusrite Scarlett 18i20
Microphone: ECM8000

The second question would be: If I'm recording drums, accoustig guitar or vocals (seperately).
Where would you put them in the romm?
How would you use the mobile walls?
Is the place of the drums in the corner okay, or should I move them more to the center when I'm recording?

Room dimensions: 3,9m x 7,2m x 2,3m

Ceiling: accoustic drywall with 2,5cm rockwool behind (https://www.rigips.de/produkte-syste...8-q/pr00041154)

Floor: Wood Laminate

Red: corner bass trap top to bottom (https://www.thomann.de/de/the_t.akustik_cbt_37.htm)
Blue: standing bass trap 100cm (https://www.thomann.de/de/hofa_basstrap.htm)
Green: 100cm x 50cm melamine panels (https://www.thomann.de/de/takustik_b...0_4er_pack.htm)
Cyan: accoustic curtain (two layers) 500g + 300g (https://www.thomann.de/de/stairville...0g_m_creme.htm)
Yellow: accoustic foam (https://www.thomann.de/de/the_takustik_hilon40.htm)
Brown: mobile wall filled with six 50cm x 50cm elements (https://www.thomann.de/de/hofa_absorber_black.htm)
Door: Removable 2 x 500g accoustic curtain (missing in the sketch)

The wall behind the speakers is concrete (basement) and currently untreated. I'm planning putting there 800g accoustic curtain as well if you have no other suggestions.

The distance speaker to wall is currently ca 30cm.

Thanks a lot for any advice!!!
Attached Thumbnails
Room Measurement and treatment advice-room.jpg  
Attached Files
File Type: mdat Room.mdat (5.59 MB, 16 views)
Old 1 week ago
  #2
Gear Addict
 
Hot Sauce's Avatar
 
Looks like your biggest issues are the 45Hz modal ringing, and the huge null above that. Not really all that surprising. When looking at this, I would recommend using a lot less smoothing, like maybe 1/12 or 1/24 octave. Psy smoothing really makes it look better than it is, and may obscure problem areas.

On the impulse response I can see a couple big reflections early on, one at around 1.3ms, and another at around 11ms. You can also see a lot of group delay especially in the low end. There's also some significant dips in the mids. I don't think you will be able to do much about what's going on around 20Hz, unless you want to put 600mm thick treatment on all surfaces.

You may have to experiment with the placement of the drums to see what sounds best. Generally I think anybody would say your room just needs some more treatment. Ditch the foam and get some thicker panels. If you are open to DIY, it can be done feasibly with a not-insane amount of money. I would recommend going as thick as possible, like 300mm or more if you can, especially in the corners. Since you are tracking and mixing in this room that is a bit limiting - it may be impossible to make the space ideal for both of these things at the same time, depending on what sort of ambience you want to have.

Some of the REW gurus will probably have better and more in depth observations to make about the measurements you made, but these are the things that stood out to me. If you really want to be able to get good speaker response (especially in the low end) in this room you will definitely need a lot more treatment.
Old 1 week ago
  #3
Lives for gear
 
Hi, you got a lot of issues.

1. Your bass response drops off way too high in frequency, I couldn't find specs for your speakers but it's an issue

2. It doesn't look like you have a subwoofer at all

3. your FR(frequency response) has the wrong "tilt" "trend" or "house curve" to it. your trend line is constant and pointing up so it makes me believe it's a speaker issue and not a mic issue.

Drums next to 2 walls/corner will have MUCH more bass build up than out in the room. You'll have to record and see what you like.
However, with the measurements you posted you can't mix drums as your bass falls off way to high.

What amp is powering the monitors and are you using any EQ or dsp with them?

33% into the length of room is standard starting point for "Even" bass response. so if you wanted the most even response for drums, starting with them around 33% away from back wall and in middle of room will should give you that.

Edit
here is your "trend line" compared to Carl Tatz post EQ trend line that is close/similar to other standards.
Attached Thumbnails
Room Measurement and treatment advice-trend-line.jpg   Room Measurement and treatment advice-carl-tats-after.png  
Old 1 week ago
  #4
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
Hi @ ALL ! Thanks a lot for your professional insight and your fast reply!

Here are some information about my monitors. The range is 45 - 22000 Hz:

http://ifatwww.et.uni-magdeburg.de/~...ext/br25t.html

https://www.bassquarterly.de/index.p...bfd50fcd33dd24

I have one subwoofer. It is located on the right under my desk. But I didn't switch it on for the test. I usually leave it off and just turn it on to occasionally check the low-end. This is the box (Klipsch R-12SW):

https://de.klipsch.com/products/r-12sw

This is my amp for the monitors:

https://www.thomann.de/de/tamp_s75.htm

I have a DSP but it is only active when I'm using the sub. Otherwise it is only passthrough with no active EQ. This is the box:

https://www.thomann.de/de/the_t.racks_dsp_4x4_mini.htm

What speaker problem could cause the trend line going up?
Old 6 days ago
  #5
Lives for gear
 
adrumdrum's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
First of all how the room the measurements look like without treatment or with poorly treated room doesn't matter...won't telly how to treat the room anyway.

My recommendation is to build the traps, you can easily build better traps than the ones on Thomann.
1. place the speaker in the other end of the room.
Can't have door where treatment is needed.
Start with Listening position at 27% of room length from front wall.
2. Treat front wall behind the speakers like this:
Room Plan Progress Report: Final Plan review
3. Treat the rest of the room walls with traps like the attached drawing, 8" or 10" thickness.
important areas to treat: front sidewalls to parallel with LP.
Center back wall. treat at lest the corner of back wall to a depth of 1/10 of room length and the center half the depth.
4. Treat the front of the room with large cloud. acoustic drywall is good and will let low mid and lows pass through to the wool above but it will still be reflective.
Measure with REW so you can find best Lp and speaker placement in relation to the treatment.

Also large areas of treatment absorbs better than small traps placed apart.
edit: Absorption material: Stone wool 30kg/m3 or lower or glass wool 20kg/m3 or lower(lower is better, if the density is to high it will reflect more bass then it absorbs.)
Treat the wall at least 2 meter up from floor, not hanging like framed pictures on the walls.
Attached Thumbnails
Room Measurement and treatment advice-side-back-wall-traps.jpg  
Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #6
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Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by adrumdrum ➡️
First of all how the room the measurements look like without treatment or with poorly treated room doesn't matter...won't telly how to treat the room anyway.
So how does one confirm their calculations or assess a pre existing space? How does one plan effective treatment?

Just guess??
Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #7
Lives for gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake_Blues ➡️
Hi @ ALL ! Thanks a lot for your professional insight and your fast reply!

Here are some information about my monitors. The range is 45 - 22000 Hz:

http://ifatwww.et.uni-magdeburg.de/~...ext/br25t.html

https://www.bassquarterly.de/index.p...bfd50fcd33dd24

I have one subwoofer. It is located on the right under my desk. But I didn't switch it on for the test. I usually leave it off and just turn it on to occasionally check the low-end. This is the box (Klipsch R-12SW):

https://de.klipsch.com/products/r-12sw

This is my amp for the monitors:

https://www.thomann.de/de/tamp_s75.htm

I have a DSP but it is only active when I'm using the sub. Otherwise it is only passthrough with no active EQ. This is the box:

https://www.thomann.de/de/the_t.racks_dsp_4x4_mini.htm

What speaker problem could cause the trend line going up?
this is what I would do.

1. measure inside without DSP plugged in at all

2.measureing outside is good but you'll need it to be really quiet.(proably won't work

Try this layout REW modeler shows could work

This should give you an triangle of 64" from speakers to LP, or 1.6m triangle. bass response with this config is modeled to be good to around 50hz with no nulls/suck out.
Attached Thumbnails
Room Measurement and treatment advice-listener-positon.jpg   Room Measurement and treatment advice-speaker-position.jpg  
Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #8
Lives for gear
 
Here is a close up so you can see the details better of position. this is just a starting position from a model, put speaker in new position and mic at new LP and measure to confirm.
Attached Thumbnails
Room Measurement and treatment advice-listener-positon-close-up.png   Room Measurement and treatment advice-speaker-position-close-up.png  
Old 6 days ago
  #9
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
The speakers are almost in your suggested Position. See pictures. I will try to remeasure without the DSP tomorrow and report back. Thanks again folks!
Attached Thumbnails
Room Measurement and treatment advice-img_20210911_224156.jpg   Room Measurement and treatment advice-img_20210911_224057.jpg  
Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #10
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adrumdrum's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle P. Gushue ➡️
So how does one confirm their calculations or assess a pre existing space? How does one plan effective treatment?

Just guess??
I don't guess...but I'm also realistic when giving advises...(I would not recommend to treat the entire back wall with over 70cm thick absorption, 4000pa.s/m2, even if that wold be the the minimum if you want the room closer to perfect..according to the measurements)

when d.i.y treating, it's better to know where it's important to have treatment than guessing about where to apply treatment.
What treatment/materials that works and what doesn't work, to avoid costly mistakes.
Also, as I wrote, placing speakers in the other end of the room because there are better possibility for treatment when the door is in the other end of the room.
Then measure and adjust treatment, LP speaker placement, whatever is needed. And focus on the big problems, for example peaks and dips in lows, strong low mid and so on...not a little desk reflection that you don't even know that you can here.(use you ears)

You don't d.i.y treat a room with minimal knowledge to the measurement result of a world class control/mastering room.
You need to be realistic...
Old 6 days ago
  #11
Gear Guru
 
thethrillfactor's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake_Blues ➡️

Thanks a lot for any advice!!!
Studying your transient response vs. modal response it seems you have to get the modal peaks around 44-45hz and 140hz under control.
(44hz will influence what you hear if playing music in sub lows and 140hz will stick out as plain as day).


The deep null around 94hz on right measurement looks like floor bounce.
On the left measurement around 65hz looks to be ceiling reflection.

The missing bass in low end looks to be SBIR reflections and some modal influence.

The modal decay at 40hz will need deep treatment.

The impulse response around desk can be a little cleaner.

Over all you need to find a better speaker/listener position.
Attached Thumbnails
Room Measurement and treatment advice-screen-shot-2021-09-11-6.39.41-pm.jpg   Room Measurement and treatment advice-screen-shot-2021-09-11-6.40.01-pm.jpg  
Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #12
Lives for gear
 
Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by adrumdrum ➡️
I don't guess...but I'm also realistic when giving advises...(I would not recommend to treat the entire back wall with over 70cm thick absorption, 4000pa.s/m2, even if that wold be the the minimum if you want the room closer to perfect..according to the measurements)

when d.i.y treating, it's better to know where it's important to have treatment than guessing about where to apply treatment.
What treatment/materials that works and what doesn't work, to avoid costly mistakes.
Also, as I wrote, placing speakers in the other end of the room because there are better possibility for treatment when the door is in the other end of the room.
Then measure and adjust treatment, LP speaker placement, whatever is needed. And focus on the big problems, for example peaks and dips in lows, strong low mid and so on...not a little desk reflection that you don't even know that you can here.(use you ears)

You don't d.i.y treat a room with minimal knowledge to the measurement result of a world class control/mastering room.
You need to be realistic...
How is advising someone to ignore measurements until treating the room, not guessing? And since this is dual purpose, doing some recordings would be useful as well.

Especially in a non-purpose built room, that has had no calculations done, testing is a sensible first step.

There was no mention of budget, or other limitations so how does one know what’s realistic to advise?

What treatment and where are of equal importance diy or not.

I don’t see the logic behind taking a room full of variables, ignoring measurements, and test recordings, do no calculations, and then asserting that a series of panels should be purchased/made.

In other words with little to no information about the room how is a plan developed to treat it? And how can one be confident it’s an efficient plan?

If measurements of the empty room don’t identify problems, what do they identify? And how else could you identify them?

There’s a difference between expecting world class performance in an unfit room, and making sure the room is treated as efficiently as possible within the given restraints. Taking a “one size fits all” approach is not a logical way to do things imho, and can be wasteful with underwhelming results.
Old 6 days ago
  #13
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
Hi Thrillfactor. Thanks a Lot for the detailed insight!

I did a quick and dirty frequency sweep with the Protools EQ two weeks before I installed REW and just listened to the response in the room. I wrote down the frequencies that seemed problematic to me and I guess I quite nailed it. At least I can trust my ears :-)

Unfurtunately I can not move the desk to another location. And I don't want it to be 100% perfect as it is "just" a hobby where I want to record and mix some music in the same room. I know that this is always a compromise cause you can't get a mixing room and a live room at the same time. So I guess I'll close mic the drum set and add the space in the post. Nevertheless I do have to deal with the 45Hz and the 140Hz Problem cause it causes also trouble when recording. I'm not afraid of changing the already installed treatment to new DIY components or adding some stuff. But I would need some advice how (diffusor, trap, absorber) and where to fight the problematic frequencies in my room. Again thanks a lot for any given advice!!!
Attached Thumbnails
Room Measurement and treatment advice-img_20210912_172851.jpg  
Old 5 days ago
  #14
Lives for gear
 
IMO you always want to get the best, minimum set up before room treatment and EQ.

What you need to do is take a measurement with the subwoofer on and the mains/sub crossover over around 90.

Take left+sub measurement, Right plus sub, and all together

You also need to add in a "tilt" to correct the response.
Here are some simple EQs made with REW to flatten out the response.
You can change the tilt with PEW, like what I made here, you you can add a "shelf" in a single spot, or a mix of both.

To keep it simple I only ran REW to eq from 90-10,000hz.
Also It only did "subrative" eq.
add the settings to your DSP from each text file and toggle on/off to see how things sound.

Here is difference between response and "predicated after EQ
Attached Thumbnails
Room Measurement and treatment advice-links.jpg   Room Measurement and treatment advice-screenshot-65-.jpg  
Attached Files
File Type: txt LINKS.txt (367 Bytes, 2 views) File Type: txt Rechts.txt (755 Bytes, 2 views)
Old 5 days ago | Show parent
  #15
Gear Guru
 
thethrillfactor's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake_Blues ➡️
Hi Thrillfactor. Thanks a Lot for the detailed insight!

I did a quick and dirty frequency sweep with the Protools EQ two weeks before I installed REW and just listened to the response in the room. I wrote down the frequencies that seemed problematic to me and I guess I quite nailed it. At least I can trust my ears :-)

Unfurtunately I can not move the desk to another location. And I don't want it to be 100% perfect as it is "just" a hobby where I want to record and mix some music in the same room. I know that this is always a compromise cause you can't get a mixing room and a live room at the same time. So I guess I'll close mic the drum set and add the space in the post. Nevertheless I do have to deal with the 45Hz and the 140Hz Problem cause it causes also trouble when recording. I'm not afraid of changing the already installed treatment to new DIY components or adding some stuff. But I would need some advice how (diffusor, trap, absorber) and where to fight the problematic frequencies in my room. Again thanks a lot for any given advice!!!
When using free standing monitors, what affects frequency response the most in the low end is the listener/speaker positioning. So great, time and effort should be used to maximize it( doesn't cost anything but time) .

In terms of the HiQ peaks at 44hz and 140hz, these can be brought down with minimum phase EQ tuned to the specific modal peaks. But the peaks have to be confirmed as modal peaks and that can only be done with the correct measurements( don't go by the theoretical calculations)
Old 5 days ago
  #16
Old 3 days ago
  #17
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
Sorry for the delay, guys! I did some testing and figured out that my microphone cable had an issue !

I ran the test again. This time in the following constellation:

left
right
both
left+sub
right+sub
both+sub

I left out the suggested EQ settings as they were based on the false measurement. With sub attatched I went with a crossover at 90 as suggested (see screenshots). Otherwise I left the EQ flat.

The monitors are calibrated to -80 and the sub is -77.

I hope things look better now
Attached Thumbnails
Room Measurement and treatment advice-monitor.jpg   Room Measurement and treatment advice-sub.jpg   Room Measurement and treatment advice-spl.jpg  
Attached Files
File Type: mdat Room_NEW.mdat (2.38 MB, 3 views)
Old 3 days ago
  #18
Gear Addict
 
Hot Sauce's Avatar
 
You've still got some huge nulls. If I were you I would take the advice given earlier in the thread, if you have time, and spend an afternoon moving things around and taking measurements until you find a better listening position. This of course assuming you have some freedom to rearrange things... It is time consuming, but not as time consuming as having to make a million revisions to your mix because what you are hearing is inaccurate..!

Of course, in a minimally treated room, things can almost universally be improved by adding some more treatment, esp. in corners, back wall, and around the listening position. This is a pretty standard approach. However it's best to know you are starting from the best possible position before getting into all of that. Having fewer/smaller problems to fix just by moving things around is a really GOOD thing.

So keep in mind that relatively small differences in position can sometimes have large effects.

A couple other things to keep in mind:

It's usually good to make sure that the distance between the speakers and any boundary are not equal (or in even ratio). So the speakers should not be the same distance from the floor and ceiling (measure from the tweeters). The distance from a speaker to the adjacent side wall should not be exactly half the distance of that same speaker to the opposite side wall, etc. These are general guidelines, but every room is different, and measuring is king.
Old 2 days ago
  #19
Lives for gear
 
I'm glad you are working on it.

Without a separate "Sub" sweep, "mains" sweep and "all" sweep we really can't tell if it's a room issue or a sub issues or integration issues.

Also, turn off all speakers and take a sweep, "choose to save even though low SPL was detected." and that will show your noise floor in the room to tell if it can be trusted.

I set up a sub in my bedroom system to show you what a bad looking starting point would be without any EQ and just with a 90hz crossover point.

To get this into shape you would need to EQ sub separate, Eq mains separate and make sure both are smooth in the crossover region.

. Also it looks like my mains are dropping off acoustically so I would need to rise the sub xover to match.
Just sticking a crossover on subs/mains at 90hz or any place is just a starting point and will usually end up with gaps like this
Attached Thumbnails
Room Measurement and treatment advice-sub-mains-etc..jpg  
Old 2 days ago
  #20
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
Sorry, I didn't export all measurements.

I attached the new set. Please change the file-ending from *.mdat to *.rar and extract the archive with winrar. The REW-File got to big and the ending *.rar was not allowed for upload.

I added Sub only and Noisefloor as suggested. Also two new measurements left and right withot the DSP. But I think this device isn't doing much distraction as the charts are almost identical to the other ones.
Attached Files
File Type: mdat rename_extension_to_rar.mdat (13.46 MB, 4 views)
Old 1 day ago
  #21
Lives for gear
 
Hi, I have you m.dat file on my laptop. If I have time I'll upload some screengrabs later.

From the looks of it your subwoofer is about 18-20 too low. That is why it's not filling the the low end at all.

The standard the "rough in" a sub is to have NO EQ on anyting, set you crossover slopes, then you pink noise to get the subwoofer to math the speaker level.

For you, you can EQ out your 2 big peaks in the subwoofer, then use pink noise and REW "RTA" and not "spectrum" to set the level
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