The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
My Garage Studio design. Am I screwing up anything?
Old 8th January 2021
  #1
Here for the gear
 
My Garage Studio design. Am I screwing up anything?

Images attached.

Important details:

1. The inner walls aren't build yet, so I can change as needed. Also, the inner room measurements will probably shift slightly depending on the final wall width, which I haven't calculated precisely.

2. My goal is to be able to record drums at full volume in the iso booth (e.g., up to 130db) and be able to also record temp tracks of a guitar amp in the outside opposite corner, at moderate volume, and I can add foam absorbers, etc, around the amp. It's essential that outside noise doesn't bleed into the drum mics in the iso booth. It's desirable that drum noise from the booth not bleed into the outside microphone, but this is where I can flex, if needed. So I think I need about 70db reduction at 50Hz from the iso booth walls?

I'm not terribly concerned about noise leaking outside the whole structure, so the north and east walls aren't getting any special treatment at this time. (The room labeled "live room" is not actually expected to be used to record final tracks at the end of this build out.)

3. Walls around the iso booth will be double studs with a min 2" air gap.
I'm planning to use this mineral wool isolation: https://www.lowes.com/pd/ROCKWOOL-SA...7-in-L/3394032

I'm planning to to sandwich MLV between a 1/2" and a 5/8" layer of regular gypsum drywall. A sandwich like this will go on both sides of the interior walls, and I'm assuming I can get away with just one sandwich on the innermost studs on the external walls.

I'm purchased this kits for wall decoupling:
https://www.soundproofcow.com/produc...oofing-system/

I'm planning to mount the inner walls directly on the concrete slab, and have a gap between the wall and vinyl-padded plywood flooring. (I guess the gap is filled with acoustic sealant?) The drums will be on a riser with rubber insulators between the riser and the floor. ( https://www.soundproofcow.com/produc...rs-case-of-50/ )

Ceiling will be mounted on top of inner studs, and use the same double sandwiched construction as the interior walls, unless weight becomes a concern. If so, I'll drop to 1/2" drywall, and then consider removing a layer of drywall on the attic side.

Window(s) are TBD, but I will definitely use laminated glass, with the inner pane at least 1/8" thicker than the outer pane. I think that means 1/4" and 3/8" thick, since I expect the mass of the glass to be almost 4x the mass of the drywall?

4. Non-parallel walls are the way to go, right? I thought that was obvious truth, but I see so many pictures of rectangular vocal booths...

5. The 15+ ft length is intended to avoid modes by reaching half-wavelength on a 50 Hz kickdrum (11.3 ft). I think this is less necessary given the non-parallel walls, but I've got the room, so why not, right? A diffuser on the far wall might turn some small bit of what would have been non-parallel reflection back into a direct return, maybe?

Questions:

Besides the various question marks in the description above,

- Am I likely to meet my isolation / db reduction goals?

- Am I doing anything irreparably stupid?

- Am I doing anything wasteful? I'm OK with the budget so far, but of course I want to get the most db reduction for my dollar as I can.

- Should I build a sound lock for a second door into the iso booth? Any door advice, besides getting solid core, weather sealing, and attaching absorbers to it?

- Should I reconsider a floating wood floor? Given the concrete on earth base, I thought there was risk of any benefit being outweighed by added resonance. But I know the usual advice against floating floors is for entire spaces that need to be separated form the rest of the building. Here, I am most concerned about separated one part above the concrete slab from another part on the same slab. Should I be concerned about sound travelling through the concrete?

- Am I crazy to think I can get a reasonable mixing environment in the outer room with just the addition of foam treatments? Is there anything I can change in my design to make that better without reducing the db reduction from the booth?
Attached Thumbnails
My Garage Studio design. Am I screwing up anything?-studio-3d.jpeg   My Garage Studio design. Am I screwing up anything?-studio-floorplan.jpeg  
Old 8th January 2021
  #2
Lives for gear
 
Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt2000 ➡️
Images attached.

Important details:

1. The inner walls aren't build yet, so I can change as needed. Also, the inner room measurements will probably shift slightly depending on the final wall width, which I haven't calculated precisely.

2. My goal is to be able to record drums at full volume in the iso booth (e.g., up to 130db) and be able to also record temp tracks of a guitar amp in the outside opposite corner, at moderate volume, and I can add foam absorbers, etc, around the amp. It's essential that outside noise doesn't bleed into the drum mics in the iso booth. It's desirable that drum noise from the booth not bleed into the outside microphone, but this is where I can flex, if needed. So I think I need about 70db reduction at 50Hz from the iso booth walls?

I'm not terribly concerned about noise leaking outside the whole structure, so the north and east walls aren't getting any special treatment at this time. (The room labeled "live room" is not actually expected to be used to record final tracks at the end of this build out.)

3. Walls around the iso booth will be double studs with a min 2" air gap.
I'm planning to use this mineral wool isolation: https://www.lowes.com/pd/ROCKWOOL-SA...7-in-L/3394032

I'm planning to to sandwich MLV between a 1/2" and a 5/8" layer of regular gypsum drywall. A sandwich like this will go on both sides of the interior walls, and I'm assuming I can get away with just one sandwich on the innermost studs on the external walls.

I'm purchased this kits for wall decoupling:
https://www.soundproofcow.com/produc...oofing-system/

I'm planning to mount the inner walls directly on the concrete slab, and have a gap between the wall and vinyl-padded plywood flooring. (I guess the gap is filled with acoustic sealant?) The drums will be on a riser with rubber insulators between the riser and the floor. ( https://www.soundproofcow.com/produc...rs-case-of-50/ )

Ceiling will be mounted on top of inner studs, and use the same double sandwiched construction as the interior walls, unless weight becomes a concern. If so, I'll drop to 1/2" drywall, and then consider removing a layer of drywall on the attic side.

Window(s) are TBD, but I will definitely use laminated glass, with the inner pane at least 1/8" thicker than the outer pane. I think that means 1/4" and 3/8" thick, since I expect the mass of the glass to be almost 4x the mass of the drywall?

4. Non-parallel walls are the way to go, right? I thought that was obvious truth, but I see so many pictures of rectangular vocal booths...

5. The 15+ ft length is intended to avoid modes by reaching half-wavelength on a 50 Hz kickdrum (11.3 ft). I think this is less necessary given the non-parallel walls, but I've got the room, so why not, right? A diffuser on the far wall might turn some small bit of what would have been non-parallel reflection back into a direct return, maybe?

Questions:

Besides the various question marks in the description above,

- Am I likely to meet my isolation / db reduction goals?

- Am I doing anything irreparably stupid?

- Am I doing anything wasteful? I'm OK with the budget so far, but of course I want to get the most db reduction for my dollar as I can.

- Should I build a sound lock for a second door into the iso booth? Any door advice, besides getting solid core, weather sealing, and attaching absorbers to it?

- Should I reconsider a floating wood floor? Given the concrete on earth base, I thought there was risk of any benefit being outweighed by added resonance. But I know the usual advice against floating floors is for entire spaces that need to be separated form the rest of the building. Here, I am most concerned about separated one part above the concrete slab from another part on the same slab. Should I be concerned about sound travelling through the concrete?

- Am I crazy to think I can get a reasonable mixing environment in the outer room with just the addition of foam treatments? Is there anything I can change in my design to make that better without reducing the db reduction from the booth?
2. I would reverse this thinking and make a small booth or iso box for the amp. A booth if vocals and loud instruments need to be tracked at once. And do drums in the now even larger main space.

70db at 50hz will not be attainable for practical purposes in your case. Ill attach test data for walls and ceilings.

In my experience reasonably clean drum and guitar tracks can be had even when both are in the same room. A room in room style booth with 2x layers 5/8" dw each side, air sealed on a concrete foundation has been effective enough to mitigate any bleed the mics can pick up, but still audible bleed to the ear.

3. Skip the rockwool, use standard fluffy fiberglass. Im not sure what the extra inch is gaining you. 1" air space between frames is sufficient.

Forget the MLV. Use 5/8" drywall if you need mass.

Im not familiar with that channel product. Risc1 and whisper clips are commonly used, tried and true. You don't need decoupling clips on the double walls.

Forget the floating floor. Concrete on earth is a great sound isolator.

Your ceiling needs to have as much mass as the walls, size the joists accordingly. Make sure to avoid (or properly compensate for) a potential 3 leaf system with the ceiling.

Your glass needs to match or slightly exceed the mass of the wall.

4. Rectangular is more common due to maximising space and ease of calculation and construction. You may want to re-configure your booth. It doesn't have to be rectangular, but its making the main room highly compromised for mixing. Often the splayed walls you see aren't structural, they are frames housing treatment like insulation and slats.

Your floor plan needs to be re-worked imho.

5. Splayed walls don't solve room modes they shift them around. Diffusion in small rooms won't work usefully.

General questions/answers:

Get build it like the pros by rod gervias, its got drawings and explanations you need. About everything doors, glass, ect.

Where is the HVAC? Ya'll gotta breathe right?

Forget floating the floor its not needed.

The room as is will be very rough for mixing, and any design in there will require more than foam. Use the money you saved not buying mlv, floating the floor, and using more widely used iso clips, and use that for fluffy bass traps and broadband panels of safe n sound and/or rockboard 40.

For mixing you need symmetry. If asymmetry is unavoidable it needs to be in the rear.


Where is the electrical plan?

It is not clear where you intend on using the isolation clips.

It is not clear what the existing construction consists of. It is likely you will need to seal up some gaps at a minimum, and probably add mass to the structure and or remove some existing material.

Its not the worst first draft in the world, it just needs to me proportioned and shaped in a more effective/efficient way.

My personal choice would be large main room, symmetrically laid out, with small amp closet built into the rear wall bass trap. Drums kitty cornered in bottom right corner.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf ir 586 concrete.pdf (504.8 KB, 1 views) File Type: pdf ir 761 gypsum walls.pdf (5.67 MB, 2 views) File Type: pdf IR-811 WARNOCK BIRTA Sound Insulation of Floors.pdf (2.17 MB, 1 views)
Old 9th January 2021 | Show parent
  #3
Here for the gear
 
Thanks for the feedback!

2) My thinking was, Isolating the smaller room means less expense on isolation materials.

If I'm understanding correctly, you're saying that I won't get 70 db TL @ 50Hz (which I cam eup with broadly guessing), but that much is not necessary to meet my practical goal of isolating guitar mics and drum mics, so thats fine.

You said 2x of 5/8" drywall. Auralex says, vary the drywall thickness because difference thicknesses absorb difference frequency spectrums. Since they don't sell drywall, I'm inclined to trust them on this point. Anyway, it looked like the reports you shared might shed some light on this... I will review.

3)
Air-gap size: I read somewhere (maybe from @ Soundman2020 ?) that a larger gap lowers the frequency range that is best trapped by the wall. Since I'm trying to block 50 hz, bigger gap seemed important?

MLV: This is the tradeoff for the larger gap - I'm willing to pay more for 1/8" thick mlv than 10/8" of drywall, to get some of my space back. Maybe it's not worth it tho if I can get away with a smaller airgap?

Decoupling: You said, "You don't need decoupling clips on the double walls." I think you must mean that I don't need it on both sides, and I agree. I was going to only use in on the iso-booth side of the new walls.

5)

Modes: If Diffusion in small rooms won't work usefully, what will? How small are we talking? Is ~12 feet from where the kick drum mic will be places not enough for some reason besides the physics of the 50hz wavelength?

General:

HVAC: Will have zig-zag ducts leading to an in-vent at the floor near the door, and an out-vent will be at the ceiling in the opposite corner. Right?

Mixing: This is a lesser concern, as it is not my primary goal to create a mixing room, but I will consider revising the floorplan for more symmetry in the outer room, to benefit whatever preliminary mixing i might try to do.

Electrical: Each outlet will be on it's own circuit. Plates (electric and audio jacks) will be sealed with acoustic sealant. What else should I be thinking about?

If by "isolation clips" you mean the isotrax system, that goes between the studs and the drywall on the booth side of the new interior walls.

Existing exterior walls are wood on east & west sides, stucco on the south side, and a garage door on the north side, which will get drywall on studs put in front of it. Again, I'm not very concerned about leakage between the larger room and outside the building, I'm mostly concerned about leakage between the iso booth and the outer room.

Thanks again!
Old 9th January 2021 | Show parent
  #4
Lives for gear
 
Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt2000 ➡️
Thanks for the feedback!

2) My thinking was, Isolating the smaller room means less expense on isolation materials.

If I'm understanding correctly, you're saying that I won't get 70 db TL @ 50Hz (which I cam eup with broadly guessing), but that much is not necessary to meet my practical goal of isolating guitar mics and drum mics, so thats fine.

You said 2x of 5/8" drywall. Auralex says, vary the drywall thickness because difference thicknesses absorb difference frequency spectrums. Since they don't sell drywall, I'm inclined to trust them on this point. Anyway, it looked like the reports you shared might shed some light on this... I will review.

3)
Air-gap size: I read somewhere (maybe from @ Soundman2020 ?) that a larger gap lowers the frequency range that is best trapped by the wall. Since I'm trying to block 50 hz, bigger gap seemed important?

MLV: This is the tradeoff for the larger gap - I'm willing to pay more for 1/8" thick mlv than 10/8" of drywall, to get some of my space back. Maybe it's not worth it tho if I can get away with a smaller airgap?

Decoupling: You said, "You don't need decoupling clips on the double walls." I think you must mean that I don't need it on both sides, and I agree. I was going to only use in on the iso-booth side of the new walls.

5)

Modes: If Diffusion in small rooms won't work usefully, what will? How small are we talking? Is ~12 feet from where the kick drum mic will be places not enough for some reason besides the physics of the 50hz wavelength?

General:

HVAC: Will have zig-zag ducts leading to an in-vent at the floor near the door, and an out-vent will be at the ceiling in the opposite corner. Right?

Mixing: This is a lesser concern, as it is not my primary goal to create a mixing room, but I will consider revising the floorplan for more symmetry in the outer room, to benefit whatever preliminary mixing i might try to do.

Electrical: Each outlet will be on it's own circuit. Plates (electric and audio jacks) will be sealed with acoustic sealant. What else should I be thinking about?

If by "isolation clips" you mean the isotrax system, that goes between the studs and the drywall on the booth side of the new interior walls.

Existing exterior walls are wood on east & west sides, stucco on the south side, and a garage door on the north side, which will get drywall on studs put in front of it. Again, I'm not very concerned about leakage between the larger room and outside the building, I'm mostly concerned about leakage between the iso booth and the outer room.

Thanks again!
2. Read the reports, they will help. There is no practical reason to vary the drywall thickness of each layers. 5/8" gives you the most performance per dollar. Mass is the key function. You will loose isolation by using thinner drywall, and waste money.

3. Air gap. Is the distance between the two drywall faces. On a 2x4 double wall the difference is 8 inches or 9 inches with a 1 or 2" space between frames. If that space were used for an additional 2x layers 5/8's you'd see both better LF isolation, and a lower mam frequency. Its a more efficient use of space.

MLV is not worth it in your case. There are certain cases where it is, sandwiched between mass layers isn't one of them.

Omitting mlv might make isolation for the whole room affordable, considering its around 4x the cost of dw.

Clips. You dont need clips on either side of a double wall. It will make things actually worse. Decouple once only. Either double walls or single wall with clips on one side. Not both.

(Isolating the entire room is now even more affordable omitting these clips and your drum tracks got better by having more space)

5. Bass traps and broadband absorbers will work best. Slat resonators are a good option. If your hell bent in diffusion in a small room Boggy's My Room design criteria is tested and true.

Rods book describes HVAC. You need to consider quite a few things.

Ditto for electric. Grounding is a key part of it. Every socket doesn't need its own circuit. You only need to seperate the audio gear and lights/fridge ect on different circuits.

Again you don't need them, but the tried and true isolation clips are risc 1, and whisper clips for projects like yours. The ones you link are not common.
Old 9th January 2021 | Show parent
  #5
Here for the gear
 
I really appreciate the additional deatils!

You said, "Decouple once only. Either double walls or single wall with clips on one side. Not both."

I've not heard this before, and I don't see any examples of double walls in the NRC drywall report, but auralex's guide shows since with Resilient channels going from 59 to 68 by keeping the resilient channels and adding second walls studs. Do you intend to suggest that removing the resilient channels in the double wall would not reduce the STC? Or just that it wouldn't reduce the isolation in a way that is important to music? Both isn't better or both is diminishing returns?

I probably can afford to double the dry wall around the whole place, if I skip clips and & MLV, but I dont want to double-wall the whole place. Labor is more expensive than the materials here. Is Green glue or equivalent required in between panels without MLV? That glue is about as expensive.
Old 9th January 2021
  #6
Here for the gear
 
P.S. - I bought Rod's book, will start reading tonight. New concrete is being poured in the garage tomorrow (not for studio reasons), so I gotta read fast... :-)

Last edited by matt2000; 9th January 2021 at 01:15 AM.. Reason: typo
Old 9th January 2021 | Show parent
  #7
Lives for gear
 
Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt2000 ➡️
I really appreciate the additional deatils!

You said, "Decouple once only. Either double walls or single wall with clips on one side. Not both."

I've not heard this before, and I don't see any examples of double walls in the NRC drywall report, but auralex's guide shows since with Resilient channels going from 59 to 68 by keeping the resilient channels and adding second walls studs. Do you intend to suggest that removing the resilient channels in the double wall would not reduce the STC? Or just that it wouldn't reduce the isolation in a way that is important to music? Both isn't better or both is diminishing returns?

I probably can afford to double the dry wall around the whole place, if I skip clips and & MLV, but I dont want to double-wall the whole place. Labor is more expensive than the materials here. Is Green glue or equivalent required in between panels without MLV? That glue is about as expensive.
There are quite a few double wall assemblies in the NRC reports. Take some time and look thru them. I attached an example.

STC is for voices, not music, it only measures down to 125hz.

The boost in isolation in the aurelex example is from the double wall. They sell channel not lumber. Be careful with those guides. I read them when i first started getting into studio building, there are errors/misleading things in there.

Resillient channel makes LF isolation worse. That is why i am telling you about risc1 and whisper clips that are tried and true. But again with double walls and independent ceiling, you don't need them.

For LF isolation gg won't help, substitute gg with more drywall.

Also, you don't need to spend extra on "acoustic sealant". Non hardening 100% silicone, butyl, or big stretch (brand) caulking are equally good. There is nothing magical about acoustic branded sealants.

---

You notice a trend towards independent 3rd party tests, and standard building materials in my advice? Its because they work as they should and are most cost effective. Acoustical companies sell what is most profitable, easy to ship and cheap to store. These materials sometimes have their place, but by and large its best to stick with standard materials. Be very careful about things that blur the line between information and marketing. Infomarketing....

All you need can be bought at the local building supply company.
Old 9th January 2021
  #8
Lives for gear
 
Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Forgot to attach one of the double walls in nrc report for drywall assemblies. Notice the jump in STC from 55 up to 69 just from insulation. Notice that at 50hz the difference is 3db.

This is an example of why STC isn't great for assessing musical isolation assemblies, and how persuasive advertising can be true, but misleading.

Imagine i used that data to sell "soundproofing insulation" and only quoted the STC rating. Wow 14 point improvement!!! Over 20% better STC!?. See how it can be skewed.
Attached Thumbnails
My Garage Studio design. Am I screwing up anything?-screenshot_2021-01-08-19-16-54.jpg   My Garage Studio design. Am I screwing up anything?-screenshot_2021-01-08-19-39-38.jpg  

Last edited by Kyle P. Gushue; 9th January 2021 at 01:51 AM..
Old 9th January 2021 | Show parent
  #9
Here for the gear
 
Thanks!

Given that I've already got some 1 lb MLV and and the isotrax rails on the way, where's the best place to use them?

I could probably return the MLV if it would really cause more harm than good, but the shipping on the rails is a significant fraction of the price paid, so I'd like to get some use from them. Maybe on the exterior wall closest to the neighbors, without a 2nd wall?
Old 9th January 2021 | Show parent
  #10
Lives for gear
 
Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt2000 ➡️
Thanks!

Given that I've already got some 1 lb MLV and and the isotrax rails on the way, where's the best place to use them?

I could probably return the MLV if it would really cause more harm than good, but the shipping on the rails is a significant fraction of the price paid, so I'd like to get some use from them. Maybe on the exterior wall closest to the neighbors, without a 2nd wall?
Unless you have enough to do an entire area they won't do much good. Think about a car with 3 full tires, just one flat. That's isolation, strong as the weakest link.

I would just Craigslist the isotrax. And return the MLV.
Old 9th January 2021 | Show parent
  #11
Here for the gear
 
The relatively small amount of MLV I got wasn’t that expensive. (I didn’t buy Auralex!) should I use it as underfloor, or to cover the insides of my amp closure? Rod seems to suggest the MLV works for isolation, it’s just far less cost effective than drywall. But in tight spaces or floors, it must be better than nothing.... Mass is mass, after all...
Old 10th January 2021 | Show parent
  #12
Lives for gear
 
Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt2000 ➡️
The relatively small amount of MLV I got wasn’t that expensive. (I didn’t buy Auralex!) should I use it as underfloor, or to cover the insides of my amp closure? Rod seems to suggest the MLV works for isolation, it’s just far less cost effective than drywall. But in tight spaces or floors, it must be better than nothing.... Mass is mass, after all...
Ive not seen Rod reccomend mlv for walls/sandwiched mass. Ive seen him say it can be effective in things like draping above drop ceilings.

Alot of people seem to be using mlv for limp mass membrane absorbers. Perhaps this is a better application, since there are cheaper alternatives for mass.

Perhaps as added mass on a door would be reasonable as well to keep the door width smaller.

The amp enclosure wouldn't be my first choice just because there are alternatives cheaper, and the mlv space saving isn't really important in that application.

An aside- remember accurate monitoring is as important for tracking as mixing. You want to be sure your hearing what's actually getting recorded, not misinformation from the monitors. Keep that in mind with the monitoring room/area design.
Old 10th January 2021
  #13
Here for the gear
 
Thanks. Learning a lot from Rod’s book and the JohnLSayers.com forums too.

My v2 design is attached, switching to a large combo tracking room. I don’t plan to do any final mixes here, but I think the design here will help make my rough mixes less terrible, without costing me anything in recording acoustics quality. I think the drums will definitely like the bigger space.
Attached Thumbnails
My Garage Studio design. Am I screwing up anything?-110a11d5-d201-4212-be4e-a672fdd79488.jpeg  
Old 10th January 2021
  #14
Here for the gear
 
For comparison, here’s a 2 room design I rejected in favor of the larger tracking space.
Attached Thumbnails
My Garage Studio design. Am I screwing up anything?-72dba336-b8c1-4efc-9178-90aa2a53d3e8.jpeg  
Old 10th January 2021
  #15
Lives for gear
 
Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
I feel like they are better but not making best use of the space. The airlock is not needed, i don't see its advantage and it would cost extra. In the other one called v2, the top one, the electrical area im not sure what you mean, and the "room 38" area seems a bit wasteful. And the vocal booth is a bit unusual for its geometry. I would consider moving the angled/dividing wall further downward and just making an amp closet built into the treatment instead of entire booth just for an amp. Your going to be monitoring thru headphones, so the amp a) doesn't need to be loud, b) doesn't even need a cabinet, a simple load box/cab sim will be fine. You can do a di simultaneously and re-amp a cab later, and/or overdub the cab.

Splayed structural walls are much harder to predict, and can waste space. Often the walls you see splayed, are not structural they are just housing for acoustic treatment.

I did a crude sketch of my thinking for a combo room in your case. Its symetrical, and the two booths border the outside, so the only room in room construction would be the open area. By the time you add it up i would feel safe that its no more costly (give or take a bit) than the other drafts, since there is less compartmentalized areas. Those add up quickly, so do doors and windows, ducting, ect. The space between the booths could be trapping and storage/utility.

Alternatively you could even do a single booth on the center of the top wall. Or a booth on one side of the top, drums on the other side.

The overall footprint of the studio is not large, so imho it is best to divide it up as little as possible, ie open floor plan.

Booths seem cool until they eat up space with foot thick double walls, and lay dormant while most of the action is in the main room.

Gobos and a small iso box/closet is more than sufficient. You could put some drywall in the gobos if needed.

Its comes down to what the mics hear. And when you have a 57 on the grill of a cab, it ain't hearing much drums.

Room mics, and to a lesser extent overheads are where some bleed can occur, but think of how loud drums are, compared to a combo amp in an iso box, plus the directionality of the mics.

I was shocked at Triad when i recorded a guitar and drums in the main room, soldano half stack, and there was so little bleed i could overdub without issue on the tracks. It didn't seem like it should be that way, but it was.

Anyway, between di, drum samples, and gates/spectral editing, mic technique, booths really aren't as needed as they were in the heyday of 6pc bands tracking live off the floor. Even then they got good seperation and flattering bleed together when in the same room.

Space is your most valuable asset in a build like yours.

When you see layouts with lots of carved up spaces in commercial studios you have to remember the scale. For example the booths at triad/normandy are like 12x15. You can comfortable fit 2x drum kits in each.

Just my 2c
Old 10th January 2021
  #16
Lives for gear
 
Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Having trouble uploading the pic for some reason it wont post despite saying its attached. Trying again
Attached Thumbnails
My Garage Studio design. Am I screwing up anything?-screenshot_2021-01-10-14-48-56.jpg  
Old 10th January 2021
  #17
Here for the gear
 
Quote:
I was shocked at Triad when i recorded a guitar and drums in the main room, soldano half stack, and there was so little bleed i could overdub without issue on the tracks. It didn't seem like it should be that way, but it was.
Interesting. What kind of music was it? I plan to record a lot of punk, hardcore, and metal, and as a guitarist, I find value in playing with a real tube amp, even for temp tracks, because there is a responsiveness that effects my playing.

I guess I find it hard to believe that any amount of portable treatment could keep a moderate loud amp stack from bleeding into overhead drum mics in the same room.
Old 10th January 2021 | Show parent
  #18
Lives for gear
 
Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt2000 ➡️
Interesting. What kind of music was it? I plan to record a lot of punk, hardcore, and metal, and as a guitarist, I find value in playing with a real tube amp, even for temp tracks, because there is a responsiveness that effects my playing.

I guess I find it hard to believe that any amount of portable treatment could keep a moderate loud amp stack from bleeding into overhead drum mics in the same room.
Pop/Rock in that case. I was surprised too, Soldano's are not quiet, and it was not unusually quiet in the room. The overheads were pretty close (which sounded most full) and the amp off to one side sort of in front of the kit, so it was projecting away from the kit. Even on stages/basements there can be a surprising amount of isolation.

I didn't even bother using figure 8 which has nulls to the side for further seperation.

If your going to constantly use an amp, and the scratch tracks are super sloppy or parts are going to change, or its a mesa triple rec on 11, then bleed might murk things up some.

Our ears and mics hear differently. For recording you only need enough isolation to prevent the mics fron hearing unwanted sounds. Your ears might still hear them fairly audibly. This is where things like baffles can do surprisingly well.

Im not here to say booths are bad generally. Just that they are often over emphasized in project studios that are small enough to begin with. If you need booth(s) build them. If an amp closet works, even better for the main room.

If your monitoring thru headphones its not clear to me how the "feel" of the amp changes if your using a load box/cab sim box, as its a hardware unit and adds no latency. Hughes and Kettner red box is an example.

Its your studio, im just inquiring about things so the design is practical and circumspective.

Triad wave cave was designed for a 5-6pc band recordings live. Its main room has a similar layout to what i marked up. Its versatile and allows metal bands to track full volume live, no bleed. Even with singers on a condenser. It allows mucisans stand in the booths to "feel" their amps, in the main room to "feel" like live performance, or in the control room "feel" the couch and no headphones, or even another booth to "feel" isolated from everything.

The studio works. Most of the tracking took place with players in the control room, and overdubbing one at a time. My preference personally is recording all in the same room, no headphones, or live with full isolation, both as an engineer and musician. I think the records have a better feel, and they are way faster to make. That said ive done plenty all ways. I understand with metal (having been into anything from cannibal corpse to lamb of god) that its technical and can require some tight punch ins. Punk can vary from tight to sloppy and be cool.

Most modern metal ect uses drum triggers on the kick and snare and/or samples too. The overheads don't play a huge role neither to the room mics. Blues and jazz typically benefit from bleed. Rock and pop goes both ways.

By all means make booths. Its been my experience that many have them because they think they need them, instead of because they know they do. Like i said in a project studio setting space is the scarce resource, so efficient use of it is a key factor.

With booths you need fresh air intake/exhaust and ac/heat if people are going to occupy them. Tube amps may need some ventilation too, cabs are ok sealed.

Last edited by Kyle P. Gushue; 10th January 2021 at 11:25 PM..
Old 11th January 2021 | Show parent
  #19
Here for the gear
 
Given my relatively low rafters and ceiling, I just can’t find a good Stepmeyer/Louden ratio for a rectangular room. Is less than 2800 cubic ft really big enough to ignore ratios that prevent bad modes?

FWIW, I got my current design by starting with a good Stepmeyer ratio, deforming it into a diamond shape (I know, that destroys the ratio’s mode predictions), and the the other subsections are what I had left over.

I know it’s of relatively limited value acoustically (except everyone always says, non parallel surfaces are good, if you have them), but psychologically, I feel like the diamond design may make the difference in customers minds between “a guy who records in his finished garage” and “a guy with a recording studio attached to his house.”

Plus, the 65 sq ft space to the south makes my wife happy, by providing some household extra storage space. She’s been super supportive of the project, so I.don’t have to make that concession, but I get it for free by making the largest diamond that I can.

I’m not hearing that the diamond design is bad, just that a bigger rectangle might be no worse. If I’m not misunderstanding, I think I’m going to go with the diamond.
Old 11th January 2021 | Show parent
  #20
Lives for gear
 
Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt2000 ➡️
Given my relatively low rafters and ceiling, I just can’t find a good Stepmeyer/Louden ratio for a rectangular room. Is less than 2800 cubic ft really big enough to ignore ratios that prevent bad modes?

FWIW, I got my current design by starting with a good Stepmeyer ratio, deforming it into a diamond shape (I know, that destroys the ratio’s mode predictions), and the the other subsections are what I had left over.

I know it’s of relatively limited value acoustically (except everyone always says, non parallel surfaces are good, if you have them), but psychologically, I feel like the diamond design may make the difference in customers minds between “a guy who records in his finished garage” and “a guy with a recording studio attached to his house.”

Plus, the 65 sq ft space to the south makes my wife happy, by providing some household extra storage space. She’s been super supportive of the project, so I.don’t have to make that concession, but I get it for free by making the largest diamond that I can.

I’m not hearing that the diamond design is bad, just that a bigger rectangle might be no worse. If I’m not misunderstanding, I think I’m going to go with the diamond.
Louden ratios are not applicable to non rectangular rooms. They are also imagining flush mounted speakers, and based on a 10ft ceiling height. They are not scalable. They don't avoid bad modes, rather they avoid bad distribution of modes (modal frequencies piling up on each other) the ratios are statistical calculations that have a good "spread". They are useful when applied to the right situation. Most project studios are well off maximizing space, while trying to use ratios that aren't terrible.

The diamond is asking for issues. Its unesessary and unpredictable. As soon as you go non rectangular mode calculators go out the window.

All splayed walls usefully do is handle flutter echo, which is handled by the treatment your going to use in either shape. So there's no advantage. You skew the bass response, while solving flutter which is going to be solved anyway.

You gotta look thru to the end game. You can splay the treatment walls. This is by far the most common approach in studio design. That will give you the curb appeal.

Angles on booths make sense to me in alot of cases because you can make them feel bigger than they are.

Your not concerned with "guy who stores junk from the house in the entry of his studio" vibe? To me thats way less pro. You could get a shed or build out off the side of the garage. Or just use one of the booths, and cover the window with a curtain.

The reason splayed walls look "pro" is because most don't see the rectangle shell of a pro studio.

One has to consider the reflection patterns splayed walls will exhibit and make sure the angles are correct. Then guess, even with the most sophisticated software how the bass will move around. Its way less predictable. You've got to do some geometry to get things right.

Id be intersted in hearing from the "everyone who says non-parellell walls are good". Since that's largely a misinformed view, and not one i see pro designers touting. Theres a sticky about it at the top of the forum.

Its more like "splayed walls can be useful in certain situations, but not in most cases". Again im talking about splayed structural walls. I know rectangular seems boring and predictable, but thats exactly what you want for a shell. You don't want to discover there's some super weird stuff in the room after you built it. Once the shell is up, the treatment can be splayed if desired. But the point is to start with something that gives a consistent response.

Iso walls are easily a foot thick. This can eat a foot off front, back, and both sides. 2' front to back 2' side to side. Then treatment is easily 6"-8" minimum off each wall. So take another foot off front to back, side to side. Even more if the treatment is splayed.

So an 18x18 existing area is now more like 16x16. Then dividing that up into More rooms with double walls and treatment. Things get cozy quickly and your "guy with claustrophobic studio".

Its your place, I'm just trying to pass on the notions of better minds than mine, and my experiences in building and designing.

Normandy Sound did multiple gold and platinum records. Main room and control room, rectangular shell, with the booths splayed.
📝 Reply

Similar Threads

Thread / Thread Starter Replies / Views Last Post
replies: 6 views: 9279
Avatar for 666666
666666 14th May 2010
replies: 35 views: 7769
Avatar for apolloturner
apolloturner 22nd December 2015
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearspace Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…

Forum Jump
Forum Jump