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Soffit Fail... Need new bass traps for front wall
Old 29th January 2019
  #1
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bgood's Avatar
Soffit Fail... Need new bass traps for front wall

Made some 25" by 25" soffits with pink flulffy when I built my new space... After being in here for just shy of year, it's just not happened... I have to build new stuff.

I'm thinking of going the ROXUL Safe n Sound route, essentially making to corner columns, 15" wide and 72" tall in the front and back and sides... It'll be 15" deep from front to against the wall. As they'll be in the corner, only the front and side will be exposed to the room, but each of those sides will give me 1080 inches of exposed treatment. So, add the other column and I'll have 2160 inches of treatment hitting the room.

I was inspired by this design, because it is simple and gives me solid rectangle boxes of Safe n Sound. DIY Soffit Bass Trap

See pics

Any thoughts? Good design concept or should I make them bigger? Is design better than cutting out triangles and stacking them?

The mixing barn is small... 12' deep and about 9.5" wide...

The back wall and back corners have great primacoustic products and the rest of the room is covered with GIK 242s. The joists of the ceilings are stuffed with 3" of Safe N Sound and wrapped with fabric... So, the celing is like a thin cloud.

Also, I currently have the front wall (behind the monitors) treated with GIK 242s, but, should I consider instead doing 6" of Safe n Sound to hit more bass? My largest monitors are old v1 Mackie HR824s and they can kick some pretty sweet lows.

Thank you again for your help in advance!


b
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Old 29th January 2019
  #2
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Temple of Light's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Curious about what the pink fluffy did or didn't do for you room?
Not low enough frequency absorption, or too little of it?
I have a similar build in progress, it's a nightmare building sh!t into a ceiling, and the the design I have is solid, but I still have some question as to what insulation to pack them with. The vertical section is 4" of 1.6lb Knaupf Ecose,
in a 17"H x 48"L x 4"D, frame;
the bottom horizontal section is 2'x4' pegboard panel with a B.A.D pattern drilled out. It supports the remaining insulation inside the 17"H x 20"W cavity.
The two sections make half the soffit, the wall and the ceiling make the other half.
Getting all this upholstered and sealed up tight has been the hardest part...mounting the whole business is hard work too...

YYMV

Light

Temple
Old 29th January 2019
  #3
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Temple of Light's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Yeah, bigger is always better...and yeah, soffits are better than superchunks {triangles}. I have the pair of HR824's and a pair of HR626's as vocal reference;
those passive radiators in both models really get down...

YYMV

Light

Temple
Old 29th January 2019 | Show parent
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Temple of Light ➡️
Yeah, bigger is always better...and yeah, soffits are better than superchunks {triangles}. I have the pair of HR824's and a pair of HR626's as vocal reference;
those passive radiators in both models really get down...

YYMV

Light

Temple
Yah... the 824s move a lot of air... do you have them sitting where the back is against a bass trap? Since my soffits are so friggin huge the sides of my 824s are against them with Gik 242s directly behind them....

My problem is mix translation... I’m finishing up a new mix today and will see how it survives the car test...
Old 29th January 2019 | Show parent
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Temple of Light ➡️
Yeah, bigger is always better...and yeah, soffits are better than superchunks {triangles}. I have the pair of HR824's and a pair of HR626's as vocal reference;
those passive radiators in both models really get down...

YYMV

Light

Temple
What is the proper term for just a solid rectangular stack of pink fluffy, oc703 or safe n sound? Soffit right?
Old 29th January 2019 | Show parent
  #6
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1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgood ➡️

My problem is mix translation... I’m finishing up a new mix today and will see how it survives the car test...
My advice: take your speakers outside and save yourself a LOT of wasted time/money/sanity. No walls = no reflections = a chance at making a good mix.

Otherwise, if you want a legit CR then be prepared to spend upwards of $150,000 these days ! Used to be more like $1,000,000 ! Or hire an online designer who can provide you a customized 3D model, but then still be prepared to spend $75K and 1-2 years of DIY building where you could easily end up in the ER with permanent injuries or maybe even death !

It is a myth that you (or anybody else) can get a CR that "translates" going the DIY route of stuffing a bunch of rockwool/fiberglass in mom's basement. Aint gonna happen, and you'll find yourself around here 3 years later still banging your head against the same evil, indomitable Wall. Getting old fast and still nothing to show for it !!

Making records is a rich man's game -- always was, and always will be ! And that is the biggest "secret" of the Masters.
Old 29th January 2019 | Show parent
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sage691 ➡️
My advice: take your speakers outside and save yourself a LOT of wasted time/money/sanity. No walls = no reflections = a chance at making a good mix.

Otherwise, if you want a legit CR then be prepared to spend upwards of $150,000 these days ! Used to be more like $1,000,000 ! Or hire an online designer who can provide you a customized 3D model, but then still be prepared to spend $75K and 1-2 years of DIY building where you could easily end up in the ER with permanent injuries or maybe even death !

It is a myth that you (or anybody else) can get a CR that "translates" going the DIY route of stuffing a bunch of rockwool/fiberglass in mom's basement. Aint gonna happen, and you'll find yourself around here 3 years later still banging your head against the same evil, indomitable Wall.

It's a rich man's game -- simple as that ! And that is the biggest "secret" of the Masters.
What in the natural f$ck are you even talking about...? Put the pipe down.. or better yet, just pipe down

Do you think that commercial facilities acoustic treatment is made from the hymens of angels or fairy dust? Outside of some crazy cheap diy, we’re all using basically the same materials.

I’ve already got $30k in this purpose built standalone structure paid for entirely with music $$... ain’t no mommy basement thing over here... in fact, the only diy thing I have treatment wise is the ceiling (works fine) and the front wall soffits (fail). Everything else is GIK or primacoustic commercial stuff.

Goofy

Last edited by bgood; 29th January 2019 at 08:51 PM.. Reason: Add
Old 29th January 2019 | Show parent
  #8
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by sage691 ➡️
Making records is a rich man's game -- always was, and always will be ! And that is the biggest "secret" of the Masters.
With respect I think this viewpoint is outdated.

People are quite literally making number one ‘records’ in small studios; some of them with just laptops and headphones (albeit probably in genres that may be unpopular with some here).

Making music has never been more accessible and affordable than it is today. And that applies equally to small studio acoustics.

Sure, if you want perfection then you’ll need to spend some serious ca$h. But who really needs perfection?
Old 29th January 2019 | Show parent
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skol303 ➡️
With respect I think this viewpoint is outdated.

People are quite literally making number one ‘records’ in small studios; some of them with just laptops and headphones (albeit probably in genres that may be unpopular with some here).

Making music has never been more accessible and affordable than it is today. And that applies equally to small studio acoustics.

Sure, if you want perfection then you’ll need to spend some serious ca$h. But who really needs perfection?
You’re too kind... one man’s “outdated” is another man’s “deranged”...
Old 29th January 2019 | Show parent
  #10
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1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgood ➡️

I’ve already got $30k in this purpose built standalone structure paid for entirely with music $$... ain’t no mommy basement thing over here... in fact, the only diy thing I have treatment wise is the ceiling (works fine) and the front wall soffits (fail). Everything else is GIK or primacoustic commercial stuff.
That's a mere drop in the bucket. And it sounds like you probably wasted $ anyway going with "pre built" traps. Anything you can buy from GIK you can build yourself for less than 1/2 the cost.

Obviously you still have a LONG way to go, hence the translation issues you are having. If you did the RIGHT thing (hire a competent designer to make a 3D model) then you would understand what a beast a "pro" CR truly is !

$100K is just barely getting into the ring.
Old 29th January 2019 | Show parent
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sage691 ➡️
That's a mere drop in the bucket. And it sounds like you probably wasted $ anyway going with "pre built" traps. Anything you can buy from GIK you can build yourself for less than 1/2 the cost.

Obviously you still have a LONG way to go, hence the translation issues you are having. If you did the RIGHT thing (hire a competent designer to make a 3D model) then you would understand what a beast a "pro" CR truly is !

$100K is just barely getting into the ring.
So... in your first post DIY is a waste of money etc... in your new post, DIY is better than pro built traps that I’ve seen used in pretty much every pro facility I’ve tracked in?

I don’t understand what you’re trying to sell outside of hiring an acoustician to render 3D models...?

You’re a hot mess
Old 29th January 2019 | Show parent
  #12
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1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skol303 ➡️
People are quite literally making number one ‘records’ in small studios; some of them with just laptops and headphones (albeit probably in genres that may be unpopular with some here).

Believe what you want. NONE of those records are being MIXED on laptops in mom's basement. And the Mix = 99% of what makes those records stand apart from the riff-raff ocean of wannabees.

Same as it ever was, and that comes from somebody on the "inside" who has seen it all. It's a rich man's game. Read the fine print, IF you can even find it !

The music biz is one big LIE and always was. Keeps the wannabees investing in pie-in-the-sky fantasy and creates "mystique" around the chosen crabs who were pulled from the bucket.

Aint nothin "outdated" bout dat.
Old 29th January 2019 | Show parent
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sage691 ➡️
Believe what you want. NONE of those records are being MIXED on laptops in mom's basement. And the Mix = 99% of what makes those records stand apart from the riff-raff ocean of wannabees.

Same as it ever was, and that comes from somebody on the "inside" who has seen it all. It's a rich man's game. Read the fine print, IF you can even find it !

The music biz is one big LIE and always was. Keeps the wannabees investing in pie-in-the-sky fantasy and creates "mystique" around the chosen crabs who were pulled from the bucket.

Aint nothin "outdated" bout dat.
So... you’re saying that you haven’t anything to participate in this particular thread?

And, if I may... you sound quite bitter... and narrow minded... either you have a million dollar studio or you’re in the mom’s basement? The whole music business “is a LIE” even? Goodness

There’s plenty of money to be made as a session guy, which is what’s happening here... I don’t “mix” professionally and that’s not what my space was designed for... but, I’d like to improve the acoustic treatment on my space that’s about 90% “there” so that I can mix a bit if I want to...

So... if we can.... my original post and question still stands, lol... anybody??
Old 29th January 2019 | Show parent
  #14
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by sage691 ➡️
Believe what you want. NONE of those records are being MIXED on laptops in mom's basement.
Simply not true.

An example? Scary Monsters and Nice Sprites by Skrillex. Never heard it? Well enough people did for it to become a Gold selling album and launch what became a very illustrious career for a then young and unknown artist. Quite literally, and I quite “mixed and produced in his apartment on a laptop”.

If the world of music to you means traditional rock’n’roll, country, big band or whatever then sure - the big studio stereotypes still ring very true, no doubt. But for younger musical pioneers it’s a very different and very vibrant landscape.

Pro studios still - and will always - play a key role in the industry. But they no longer have the monopoly over music production they once had. In fact much of the old industry is struggling to keep up... and I think music is in some ways much healthier for that

I say this as someone who worked in A&R in a former life.

Anyway. We’ve veered way off topic and apologies to the OP!
Old 30th January 2019 | Show parent
  #15
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Temple of Light's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgood ➡️
Yah... the 824s move a lot of air... do you have them sitting where the back is against a bass trap? Since my soffits are so friggin huge the sides of my 824s are against them with Gik 242s directly behind them....

My problem is mix translation... I’m finishing up a new mix today and will see how it survives the car test...
The monitors are right up against the front wall, towed at 30degrees, traps will be overhead but not behind...

YYMV

Light

Temple
Old 30th January 2019 | Show parent
  #16
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Temple of Light's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgood ➡️
What is the proper term for just a solid rectangular stack of pink fluffy, oc703 or safe n sound? Soffit right?
That's correct. If you don't mind, could you be answering my original question?
I'm quite curious to know what sorta results you did or didn't get, since everyone and their uncle leans toward the lowest G.F.R. material available, for deep bass trapping...namely, pink fluffy.
YYMV

Light

Temple
Old 30th January 2019 | Show parent
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Temple of Light ➡️
That's correct. If you don't mind, could you be answering my original question?
I'm quite curious to know what sorta results you did or didn't get, since everyone and their uncle leans toward the lowest G.F.R. material available, for deep bass trapping...namely, pink fluffy.
YYMV

Light

Temple
I just think I didn’t pick a good design... I went with a hangers type of design, which I suspect was a poor choice... and it took up a huge amount of space... so, I’m looking at safe n sound as a smaller (footprint) and more effective solution...

So, still big peaks in the 100hz range at the listening position...

Does that make sense?
Old 30th January 2019 | Show parent
  #18
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bgood's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Temple of Light ➡️
The monitors are right up against the front wall, towed at 30degrees, traps will be overhead but not behind...

YYMV

Light

Temple
Gotcha... thx!
Old 30th January 2019
  #19
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Jason Foi's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side."

Hunter S. Thompson
Old 30th January 2019
  #20
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Jason Foi's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Ive never actually seen data on hangers personally. I only hear they work from the guys at sayers site. Stuart swears by them, but i know he integrates helmholtz traps too. Porous absorbers with a low GFR can absorb ok down to 40hz, but to make a good dent you need tons of it. Like 3 feet thick across an entire wall. Dont be fooled by pics of pro studios. Walls arent really walls a lot of the time. Its common for up to 60% of a rooms volume to be devoted to treatment. If you cant sacrifice the volume, then pressure traps are a must. To get better advice, upload some measurements from REW
Old 30th January 2019 | Show parent
  #21
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bgood's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi ➡️
Ive never actually seen data on hangers personally. I only hear they work from the guys at sayers site. Stuart swears by them, but i know he integrates helmholtz traps too. Porous absorbers with a low GFR can absorb ok down to 40hz, but to make a good dent you need tons of it. Like 3 feet thick across an entire wall. Dont be fooled by pics of pro studios. Walls arent really walls a lot of the time. Its common for up to 60% of a rooms volume to be devoted to treatment. If you cant sacrifice the volume, then pressure traps are a must. To get better advice, upload some measurements from REW
Yah... I know how commercial facilities are built.. I’ve worked in plenty of big joints in LA and NYC.... but that’s such a different metric that barring building a true ground up commercial facility is rarely scalable to but the rarest cat...

I’ll shoot some new rew measurements and post them, but, I have a big bump between 60-100hz

bottom line is that what I built is getting torn out and replaced with something else... I’m certain that I don’t have the square footage available to have enough pink fluffy for it to be effective...

I’m thinking safe n sound out of last resort, honestly...

I’m having zero luck finding local supplier here in the Seattle area for what I really want to use (OC 703/705)... I should’ve stocked up on that before we moved here from LA... the places I have found up here (through GS referrals) all quoted about what it would cost if I were just order it from amazon... which is so UN-economical that it almost makes more sense to pick up a prebuilt GIK et al solution... which, after having to redo the front wall I should’ve probably done to begin with...

So...

Last edited by bgood; 30th January 2019 at 03:26 AM.. Reason: Add
Old 30th January 2019 | Show parent
  #22
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Jason Foi's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgood ➡️
Yah... I know how commercial facilities are built.. I’ve worked in plenty of big joints in LA and NYC.... but that’s such a different metric that barring building a true ground up commercial facility is rarely scalable to but the rarest cat...

I’ll shoot some new rew measurements and post them, but, I have a big bump between 60-100hz

bottom line is that what I built is getting torn out and replaced with something else... I’m certain that I don’t have the square footage available to have enough pink fluffy for it to be effective...

I’m thinking safe n sound out of last resort, honestly...

I’m having zero luck finding local supplier here in the Seattle area for what I really want to use (OC 703/705)... I should’ve stocked up on that before we moved here from LA... the places I have found up here (through GS referrals) all quoted about what it would cost if I were just order it from amazon... which is so UN-economical that it almost makes more sense to pick up a prebuilt GIK et al solution... which, after having to redo the front wall I should’ve probably done to begin with...

So...
Have you tried simple eq for the bump? Are your waterfalls/etc good?

BuyInsulationProducts.com | Online Insulation Superstore BuyInsulationProducts.com | Fiberglass Pipe Insulation Online Store

Is the cheapest place i could find 703. Price + shipping was still way lower than local or anywhere else for me, in san antonio, tx, but 703 has a high GFR making it not that great below around 100hz as a porous absorbant. sns is 10,000 for GFR making optimal depth around 9-12". Unless you go to pressure based traps, thick fluffy is best bang for the buck.
Old 30th January 2019 | Show parent
  #23
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bgood's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi ➡️
Have you tried simple eq for the bump? Are your waterfalls/etc good?

BuyInsulationProducts.com | Online Insulation Superstore BuyInsulationProducts.com | Fiberglass Pipe Insulation Online Store

Is the cheapest place i could find 703. Price + shipping was still way lower than local or anywhere else for me, in san antonio, tx, but 703 has a high GFR making it not that great below around 100hz as a porous absorbant. sns is 10,000 for GFR making optimal depth around 9-12". Unless you go to pressure based traps, thick fluffy is best bang for the buck.

Wow... they are cheap... thanks for the link...
Old 30th January 2019 | Show parent
  #24
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Temple of Light's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgood ➡️
I just think I didn’t pick a good design... I went with a hangers type of design, which I suspect was a poor choice... and it took up a huge amount of space... so, I’m looking at safe n sound as a smaller (footprint) and more effective solution...

So, still big peaks in the 100hz range at the listening position...

Does that make sense?
Does now! Like hangin soffits, or these things:

ATS Acoustic Baffles

Safe and Sound is a 3lb pcf density insulation, and should get down to the range your seeking.

YYMV

Light

Temple
Old 30th January 2019 | Show parent
  #25
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bgood's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Temple of Light ➡️
Does now! Like hangin soffits, or these things:

ATS Acoustic Baffles

Safe and Sound is a 3lb pcf density insulation, and should get down to the range your seeking.

YYMV

Light

Temple

No... like sheets of pink fluffy from floor to ceiling hung from the joists...

It looks like if I do safe n sound in a 17” x 17” by 6’ tall I can achieve about as much bass trapping that I can manage diy... i know that I just need to control the front corners... back wall and corners are legit

if it doesn’t work I’ll do what the other poster said and set my studio up out in the open under the moonlight or dip into my savings and spend a million dollars for a proper 3D rendering...
Old 30th January 2019 | Show parent
  #26
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bgood's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi ➡️
Have you tried simple eq for the bump? Are your waterfalls/etc good?

BuyInsulationProducts.com | Online Insulation Superstore BuyInsulationProducts.com | Fiberglass Pipe Insulation Online Store

Is the cheapest place i could find 703. Price + shipping was still way lower than local or anywhere else for me, in san antonio, tx, but 703 has a high GFR making it not that great below around 100hz as a porous absorbant. sns is 10,000 for GFR making optimal depth around 9-12". Unless you go to pressure based traps, thick fluffy is best bang for the buck.
Yah... eq and room eq with arc 2.5... lemme add that I’m not very smart, so, I always factor in a large percentage of user error lol
Old 30th January 2019 | Show parent
  #27
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bgood's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Temple of Light ➡️
The monitors are right up against the front wall, towed at 30degrees, traps will be overhead but not behind...

YYMV

Light

Temple
I missed this bit earlier... you have bass traps above your monitors? Or just normal clouds?
Old 31st January 2019 | Show parent
  #28
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Jason Foi's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgood ➡️
I missed this bit earlier... you have bass traps above your monitors? Or just normal clouds?
Imo, 100% of the treatment in a control room should be bass trapping. Then add slats, etc, to return HF energy.

Also, your hangers are just fluffy hanging from the ceiling? Not homosote wrapped with fiber?
Old 31st January 2019 | Show parent
  #29
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Temple of Light's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgood ➡️
I missed this bit earlier... you have bass traps above your monitors? Or just normal clouds?
On the front wall in my room,
there is a 17" square soffit built into the ceiling.
There will be 6 of these on it...
Compact Corner Bass Trap w/ Diffusion Alpha Demi CT - GIK Acoustics
3 on the top 3 on the bottom.
The cloud will be a bunch of these...
Monster Bass Trap with FlexRange Technology
...with scatter plate and range limiter on each.
Reupholstered to my personal taste and specs of course.
Don't do G.O.M.

YYMV

Light

Temple
Old 31st January 2019 | Show parent
  #30
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bgood's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Temple of Light ➡️
On the front wall in my room,
there is a 17" square soffit built into the ceiling.
There will be 6 of these on it...
Compact Corner Bass Trap w/ Diffusion Alpha Demi CT - GIK Acoustics
3 on the top 3 on the bottom.
The cloud will be a bunch of these...
Monster Bass Trap with FlexRange Technology
...with scatter plate and range limiter on each.
Reupholstered to my personal taste and specs of course.
Don't do G.O.M.

YYMV

Light

Temple
Nice!

I think I'm gonna ape GIK's soffit bass trap for the new DIY front corners.... 18" x 18" x 72" full of safe n sound...

If that don't do it I'll cry uncle and fly an acoustician that I trust in from LA lol
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