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cubase vst plugins latency issues
Old 25th February 2016
  #1
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steffenb's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
cubase vst plugins latency issues

is it just me or has the handling of plugin latency somehow changed since version
7.5 ?

before i was able to run heavy sessions with latency heavy plugs and i still was able
to play in midi notes with the latency i choosed in my interface.

now, i constantly have to use the "clock button" in cubase (sorry don`t know the english
term for that button) to bypass all latency heavy plugs to be able to play in midi notes
with proper latency.

why is that ?
Old 25th February 2016
  #2
Gear Guru
 
🎧 15 years
Do you have ASIO Guard turned on and your latency set low enough?

Alistair
Old 25th February 2016
  #3
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steffenb's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
yes, tried out all possible combinations so far.
result is always the same, once a plugin with latency is added ,
its latency becomes global.
Old 27th February 2016 | Show parent
  #4
Deleted User
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by steffenb ➑️
yes, tried out all possible combinations so far.
result is always the same, once a plugin with latency is added ,
its latency becomes global.

I would send 2 messages, one to Steinberg forum and the other to Steinberg help. The forum has helped me numerous times. Help will get back to you but it will be in a few days. They even set up a time to go into my computer to see where the problem was. I am sure there is a answer to the problem in order to clear the latency problem.
Old 5th March 2016
  #5
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BasariStudios's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Seems like people still get fooled by Steiny...they even close the topics where
people criticize them or ban the users...look at the topic of the 8.5.10 update.
As soon as someone pointed out was even worst they just closed the topic.
Old 11th March 2016 | Show parent
  #6
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steffenb's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassist30 ➑️
I would send 2 messages, one to Steinberg forum and the other to Steinberg help. The forum has helped me numerous times. Help will get back to you but it will be in a few days. They even set up a time to go into my computer to see where the problem was. I am sure there is a answer to the problem in order to clear the latency problem.
thats what i did now after trying every possible option.

also that friggin export error is anoying as hell.
iam just able to export in realtime, offline bounce kinda works
sometimes but then takes like 2 hrs.
Old 11th March 2016 | Show parent
  #7
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by BasariStudios ➑️
Seems like people still get fooled by Steiny...they even close the topics where
people criticize them or ban the users...look at the topic of the 8.5.10 update.
As soon as someone pointed out was even worst they just closed the topic.
?.
Old 11th March 2016 | Show parent
  #8
Lives for gear
 
BasariStudios's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexis ➑️
?.
How can i help you?
Old 11th March 2016 | Show parent
  #9
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by BasariStudios ➑️
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexis ➑️
?.
How can i help you?
LOL, thanks!

I was wondering what thread you were referring to. Apologies for the minimalistic way I did so! I went back and found it in the interim.

I find the autolock feature that seems to be activated frequently in the Steinberg forum when Cubase mods post frustrating at times. I even suggested https://www.steinberg.net/forums/vie...?f=132&t=91215 in the "Forum Issues" section of their site to not keep things unlocked for more discussion (and it does just give a happier feeling, open vs. locked tight, right? ). 7 views in 90 days, no moderator response ... sigh.

It seems communication would have been better/more open if the thread you referred to hadn't been locked, now instead the discussion is scattered in multiple threads across the site. I'm not sure why that is better than keeping it open somehow!
Old 18th March 2016
  #10
Gear Addict
 
kelldammit's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by steffenb ➑️
is it just me or has the handling of plugin latency somehow changed since version
7.5 ?

before i was able to run heavy sessions with latency heavy plugs and i still was able
to play in midi notes with the latency i choosed in my interface.

now, i constantly have to use the "clock button" in cubase (sorry don`t know the english
term for that button) to bypass all latency heavy plugs to be able to play in midi notes
with proper latency.

why is that ?
this is curious.
what version of cubase, os, etc?
which interface, controller, and how are they connected?
are there specific plugins that cause the trouble? are they vst2 or 3?
repro steps?

i've tried a bunch of things, and can't seem to replicate the issue.
Old 18th March 2016
  #11
Gear Addict
 
steffenb's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
it`s cubase 8.5.15 but i noticed this behaviour since c8.
interface is rme multiface II , controler is mpd32 thru usb.
and sl61 mkII thru midi kabel straight into the rme.

about the plugins , it seems that every plugin is adding the latency
it shows in the plugin manager.

thanks for trying to duplicate.
Old 19th March 2016
  #12
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kelldammit's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
You're welcome!

I'm on the same version of cubase (8.5.15 x64 pc, on win10), using an akai mpk61 through an original version RME Babyface's midi i/o. Buffers are set at 1024, and generally, even at that setting, vsti/midi response is tighter than it ever was using the Akai via usb, so i stay fixed at 1024.

How much additional latency are you seeing/feeling when you try to play midi in? Does it just feel slightly "looser", or is it more severe (like, the reported values)?

I can replicate at least some lag. If my controller was connected via usb, it'd be roughly the same latency i'd see with buffers set at 256 or so...i can hear the key hit the limit of its travel, and the note sounds immediately after. It's not huge, but enough to throw you or make it feel weird/disconnected. If i remove the high latency plugs, or turn on Constrain Delay Compensation, it's back to normal...I can "feel" the note as it's played, if that makes any sense? From what i can tell, in my case, it has to do with high-latency plugs, and seems to be cumulative. One or two here or there don't automatically jack up the latency...it seems to increase as more get added, particularly if the master bus is involved.

Changing buffer sizes doesn't seem to make any difference, nor does ASIO Guard. Cubase does indeed seem to be either adding some latency or miscompensating for high latency plugs or something along those lines.


The details:
To test, i've imported a 26 track practice multitrack, routed vox, guitars, bass and drums to busses, and added a record-enabled instance of pianoteq.

i put an EQuilibrium (VST3) in analog phase mode (window size 8192, with latency reported as 4096 by the plugin manager), on 15 channels (drums & vox), as well as on each of the 4 busses, and the master out.
i used MH ChannelStrip (VST2) on the 8 Guitar tracks (doing eq and comp).
RP EQ (VST2)was on the 3 bass tracks,
DMG Compassion (VST3) was on the 3 bass tracks, on 6 of the drum tracks, and the drum and guitar busses.

DMG Limitless (VST 3 1019 reported latency) was on the vox bus, bass bus and and master out.

Note: if i add EQuilibrium to the instrument itself, it does present more noticeable latency immediately...so if you're using high latency plugs on instrument tracks you're trying to play in, this could be a problem.

Last edited by kelldammit; 19th March 2016 at 07:32 AM..
Old 19th March 2016 | Show parent
  #13
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steffenb's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
I can replicate at least some lag. If my controller was connected via usb, it'd be roughly the same latency i'd see with buffers set at 256 or so...i can hear the key hit the limit of its travel, and the note sounds immediately after. It's not huge, but enough to throw you or make it feel weird/disconnected. If i remove the high latency plugs, or turn on Constrain Delay Compensation, it's back to normal...I can "feel" the note as it's played, if that makes any sense? From what i can tell, in my case, it has to do with high-latency plugs, and seems to be cumulative. One or two here or there don't automatically jack up the latency...it seems to increase as more get added, particularly if the master bus is involved.
thanks for the indepth testings mate.
your findings are def. summing up my experience .

Quote:
Changing buffer sizes doesn't seem to make any difference, nor does ASIO Guard. Cubase does indeed seem to be either adding some latency or miscompensating for high latency plugs or something along those lines.
i will try to up my buffer and see how that performs, i never
actually tried that tbh. beacuse i was thinking that i possess
a pretty up to date/powerfull machine to handle 256 easily.

but i also think that cubase is indeed handling something wrong.
like i said, before cubase 8, i never had problems in the latency
departement, even with realy heavy projects i was able to have
almost the same latency up to the very last available cpu cycle.

what also lets me think that way is that since c8 i have a lot of problems
regarding export/mixdown of projects. offline export barely works, it just
gets stuck, or when it works it takes like 2 hrs. never had that before 8.

realtime render works somehow.

it is all realy strange though. to me it seems as there might be problems
with the handling of ram/cpu/hardware , not at all a tested idea, just gut feeling.
Old 19th March 2016
  #14
Gear Addict
 
kelldammit's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
yeah, it definitely shouldn't be doing what it is. i tried at 1024, 512, and 256 buffers, and didn't really notice much difference, so it doesn't seem to be buffer-related, at least in terms of the audio interface.

i'd probably never have noticed this one, as i only really play in initial performances...by the time fx plugs are involved, i'm usually just writing in or editing midi if i have to do so at that stage in the game.

not sure about rendering issues...beyond aether's high quality settings making for long renders (in any daw), i haven't yet run into any...but i haven't really kicked it around in depth, either.
Old 19th March 2016 | Show parent
  #15
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Has anyone tried System Timestamp or Emulated MIDI Ports?

When changing ASIO Guard settings, did you restart Cubase?
Old 19th March 2016 | Show parent
  #16
Gear Addict
 
kelldammit's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mashedmitten ➑️
Has anyone tried System Timestamp or Emulated MIDI Ports?

When changing ASIO Guard settings, did you restart Cubase?
yes, restarted with ASIO Guard changes...no difference. Boosting the audio priority doesn't make a difference, either.


RE: system timestamp, from what i can tell, the latest RME driver for my babyface no longer has this option?
In any case, it works correctly out of the box with other hosts...
Old 20th March 2016 | Show parent
  #17
Gear Addict
 
steffenb's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
i'd probably never have noticed this one, as i only really play in initial performances...by the time fx plugs are involved, i'm usually just writing in or editing midi if i have to do so at that stage in the game.
i see, with my way of working, using/needing loads of efx/vst`s and whatnot,
it becomes obvious quite fast. wich is pretty annoying tbh. since this up to
date machine def. feels way more sluggish then the machine i had before
running the up to date cubase of that time.



Quote:
not sure about rendering issues...beyond aether's high quality settings making for long renders (in any daw), i haven't yet run into any...but i haven't really kicked it around in depth, either.
try to add tons of efx from different vendors in a project and see if it will
still export. here 8/10 it wont do anything.

Quote:
Has anyone tried System Timestamp or Emulated MIDI Ports?

When changing ASIO Guard settings, did you restart Cubase?
yes, did restarts, no change in behaviour at all.

timestamp i have to look into.
will report if i will find effects on the performance.
Old 20th March 2016 | Show parent
  #18
Gear Addict
 
kelldammit's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by steffenb ➑️
i see, with my way of working, using/needing loads of efx/vst`s and whatnot,
it becomes obvious quite fast. wich is pretty annoying tbh. since this up to
date machine def. feels way more sluggish then the machine i had before
running the up to date cubase of that time.
Yeah, I did some more poking around, and this issue affects audio inputs in precisely the same way (not surprisingly). It definitely needs to be fixed.


Quote:
try to add tons of efx from different vendors in a project and see if it will
still export. here 8/10 it wont do anything.
Just gave this a whirl with my test project, and it looks like the status indicator for offline bounce is what's broken. It just sits at 0%, but if you wait it out, the dialog does close, and it does indeed create a valid offline bounce file.
Realtime export works as expected, though.
Old 20th March 2016 | Show parent
  #19
Gear Addict
 
steffenb's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
[QUOTE=Just gave this a whirl with my test project, and it looks like the status indicator for offline bounce is what's broken. It just sits at 0%, but if you wait it out, the dialog does close, and it does indeed create a valid offline bounce file.
Realtime export works as expected, though.[/QUOTE]

yes, but sometimes it just gets completely stuck, or my patient just ran out after
2+ hrs

i think i`ll open a bug report at steinberg forum.

EDIT: ok, opend an issue report on steinberg forum, hope they will add it.
Old 20th March 2016
  #20
Gear Addict
 
kelldammit's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
The latency issue definitely seems specific to Cubase 8. I don't have S1 or DP handy at the moment, but the latest/greatest version of reaper doesn't exhibit this issue. I stopped at 26 instances of EQuilibrium (at least 3 bands turned on and active, same settings as with cubase), with no ill effects on input monitoring for vsti or audio signals. They're just as tight/playable as ever.

So, this makes me wonder if it's specific to Cubase 8 + RME, or just an all-around issue with C8? Maybe the way RME is dealing with latency is causing issue with Cubase?
Can anyone with a non-RME interface confirm this?

It's easy to replicate. Throw about 10-15 high latency plugs onto audio tracks in a project (you don't even need any audio on them), then try to input monitor either an audio or vsti signal.
Leave the input-monitored track dry, because adding a high-latency plug to the vsti or input-monitored audio will add the plug's latency to the monitored signal. (This is normal, and also happens in Reaper.)
In Cubase, you should start hearing more latency when monitoring as more high-latency plugs get piled on. If you enable Constrain Delay Compensation, the latency goes away.

cheers,
kell
Old 20th March 2016 | Show parent
  #21
Gear Addict
 
kelldammit's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by steffenb ➑️
yes, but sometimes it just gets completely stuck, or my patient just ran out after
2+ hrs

i think i`ll open a bug report at steinberg forum.

EDIT: ok, opend an issue report on steinberg forum, hope they will add it.
ahhh, okay. mine ran for about 10-15 mins. it wasn't a particularly long track, 4-5 min, and had somewhere around 60 fx (2 per track, plus busses, master, etc).
Old 21st March 2016
  #22
Gear Guru
 
🎧 15 years
Just a small note about Equilibrium: Dave recently changed the way it deals with latency (PDC) when bypassed. Could that be affecting things?

And doesn't Reaper bypass plugs when there is no sound? This might mean you might need audio on the tracks to compare the behaviour.

Just some ideas on things that might indirectly affect behaviour.

Alistair
Old 21st March 2016 | Show parent
  #23
Gear Addict
 
steffenb's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow ➑️
Just a small note about Equilibrium: Dave recently changed the way it deals with latency (PDC) when bypassed. Could that be affecting things?

And doesn't Reaper bypass plugs when there is no sound? This might mean you might need audio on the tracks to compare the behaviour.

Just some ideas on things that might indirectly affect behaviour.

Alistair
yes, but doesn`t vst3 in cubase allows for the same, bypassing plugs
completely while there is no sound?
Old 21st March 2016
  #24
Gear Addict
 
steffenb's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
you can add your experience/ findings now on steinberg forum.
they opend the thread.

https://www.steinberg.net/forums/vie...33&t=94851&e=0
Old 21st March 2016 | Show parent
  #25
Gear Addict
 
kelldammit's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow ➑️
Just a small note about Equilibrium: Dave recently changed the way it deals with latency (PDC) when bypassed. Could that be affecting things?
Yeah, i know he'd changed something about how PDC worked in the latest round of updates. I don't have anything else that racks up that kind of latency to test with, though, so it could quite possibly just be an issue with that particular plugin in Cubase. Steffenb, are there any non-DMG plugs that cause this for you?

Quote:
And doesn't Reaper bypass plugs when there is no sound? This might mean you might need audio on the tracks to compare the behaviour.
Good point. Cubase is set to do the same thing in prefs (for vst3 i believe, and in my case i'm using EQuilibrium as vst3 in both DAWs).
In my tests, though, the behavior is the same whether audio is playing back or not. I'd suspect that whether a plug is passing audio or not, the compensation would remain in play as long as the instance is present. It seems a sensible approach (and how it seems to actually work), but i have no idea if this is the designed/desired behavior at steiny's end...

Quote:
Just some ideas on things that might indirectly affect behaviour.
Much appreciated. It's always best to build as specific/airtight a case as possible.
Old 22nd June 2016
  #26
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
I have shelled out my life savings on a new computer I7 6700 solid state drive 64 bit windows 10 Cubase 8.5 and I get unuseable midi latency on cubase VSTs when I have one track with one VST and play one note .

I can play a note perfect multi timbral session on reason when it is in stand alone mode so I know it is not me .
As soon as I try and record anything on any plug in and with any setting (and god knows I have been through everything ) it is wrong.

The problem is Steinberg, plain and simple . So many people have had this conversation and nothing is ever done or even commented .
I am not impressed at all and their customer support is appauling .

Sort it out Steinberg You have sold me a Ferrari with no keys , SORT IT OUT .
Old 22nd June 2016 | Show parent
  #27
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyfryer ➑️
I have shelled out my life savings on a new computer I7 6700 solid state drive 64 bit windows 10 Cubase 8.5 and I get unuseable midi latency on cubase VSTs when I have one track with one VST and play one note .

I can play a note perfect multi timbral session on reason when it is in stand alone mode so I know it is not me .
As soon as I try and record anything on any plug in and with any setting (and god knows I have been through everything ) it is wrong.

The problem is Steinberg, plain and simple . So many people have had this conversation and nothing is ever done or even commented .
I am not impressed at all and their customer support is appauling .

Sort it out Steinberg You have sold me a Ferrari with no keys , SORT IT OUT .
Knowledge Base article that explains how to sort it. You don't give specific routing/ signal path so I won't speculate.
Old 23rd June 2016
  #28
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BobbyLAvenir's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by steffenb ➑️
is it just me or has the handling of plugin latency somehow changed since version
7.5 ?

before i was able to run heavy sessions with latency heavy plugs and i still was able
to play in midi notes with the latency i choosed in my interface.

now, i constantly have to use the "clock button" in cubase (sorry don`t know the english
term for that button) to bypass all latency heavy plugs to be able to play in midi notes
with proper latency.

why is that ?
Yes this is another issue with Cubase but it's not exclusive to 8, had it since cubase 5 on the last 3/4 systems i've had since (download the bitwig demo as it tells you the latency of each plug much clearer in there). The workaround is remove any plugs that induce any type of latency from your control room and master buss whilst tracking/building your track, melda stuff like the MLimiter is great for this, some stock cubase stuff has a latency including the stock limiter

If you really need your control room because you use room correction software like i do you'll have to run two versions of cubase at the same time, (or cubase and nuendo if you have it) and route the audio from one into the others control room with the room correction plugs on it there. Long winded but it works and what midi you play comes back as you played it
Old 6th July 2016 | Show parent
  #29
Gear Addict
 
kelldammit's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyLAvenir ➑️
Yes this is another issue with Cubase but it's not exclusive to 8, had it since cubase 5 on the last 3/4 systems i've had since (download the bitwig demo as it tells you the latency of each plug much clearer in there). The workaround is remove any plugs that induce any type of latency from your control room and master buss whilst tracking/building your track, melda stuff like the MLimiter is great for this, some stock cubase stuff has a latency including the stock limiter

If you really need your control room because you use room correction software like i do you'll have to run two versions of cubase at the same time, (or cubase and nuendo if you have it) and route the audio from one into the others control room with the room correction plugs on it there. Long winded but it works and what midi you play comes back as you played it
High latency plugs on any other tracks will cause this to happen, even without anything on the master bus or control room. It's a cumulative thing. Just a few may not be so noticeable, but a dozen or so should get your attention. In my testing, plugs on the master bus reveal the issue more quickly, but on a day-to-day basis, i don't use them.
Constrain delay compensation seems to be the only sure fix for me so far.
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