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What characterizes "corny" or "cheesy" lyrics in your view
Old 14th March 2014 | Show parent
  #31
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnalia Barcus ➡️
They're just not interesting to me. They're not formally interesting to me and the semantic content isn't something I care about, either.
When I say a lyric is bad or dumb it's just a shorthand way of saying that it's not something that's formally interesting to me and the semantic content isn't something I care about. If you want to avoid using any overly negative or judgmental descriptors then I can respect that, but I think that's more of a quirk in your use of language than a fundamental difference in how we approach art.

Earlier you said:

"Taste" is simply one's preferences. What one likes and dislikes. I have likes and dislikes. I just don't dislike any lyrics,"

If taste is a matter of dividing things into that which you like and that which you dislike, and if you don't dislike any lyrics, then I think it logically follows that you don't have any taste in lyrics. Not that you have bad taste in lyrics but just that you don't make those distinctions at all.

Later you expanded that to three categories of love, like, and indifference. Indifference could mean a couple of different things. It could refer to lyrics that you don't have an opinion on because you haven't really paid attention to them at all. But if you have heard and understood the lyrics, and you decide that they don't fit into your categories of like or love, then I think it's fair to say that you dislike them. You may not actively hate them or feel comfortable declaring them "bad" but you just feel like they're not for you. But if someone else chooses to use the word "bad" to mean the same thing that doesn't mean that they aren't aware that their opinion is entirely subjective.

So yes, you obviously have preferences which was my point all along. Some people express those preferences by saying that the things they don't like are bad, dumb, corny, or cheesy. You prefer to say that you're simply indifferent to the things you don't like. I think that's just a difference in language akin to the milquetoast parent who tells their child to never use the word "hate." It doesn't mean that you have a deeper or more valid understanding of the function of art.
Old 14th March 2014
  #32
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"Indifference" is the same thing as "dislike" in your view, initialsBB?

Also, did you take me to be saying that taste in x necessarily involves both liking AND disliking some x, rather than just having preferences? Did you take me to be defining "preferences" as "likes and dislikes, where one necessarily has both for any given category, otherwise one has no tastes when it comes to x" (and just "likes" and "dislikes" to the exclusion of "loves", "feeling it's so-sos", and everything else I didn't exhaustively mention, as if I believed that preferences were always binary, without more nuances than that )? If so, why?

(Also, if in your view, in your usage, "indifference" and "dislike" are the same, what would have been much easier would have been to say that you believed I was stating a logical contradiction when I said both "I do not dislike any lyrics" and "The majority of lyrics I feel indifferent about".)
Old 15th March 2014 | Show parent
  #33
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnalia Barcus ➡️
"Indifference" is the same thing as "dislike" in your view, initialsBB?
No, but I was trying to figure out if you truly have never heard lyrics that you dislike, or if you are simply defining your dislike as indifference.

Are there any works in any medium that you dislike? Is this unique to lyrics or do you have an overall policy of only feeling positivity or indifference? Does this come naturally to you or is it more of an intellectual point? Like you've genuinely never felt the emotion of disliking something, or you try to make it a point not to waste that energy on things that simply aren't your cup of tea?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnalia Barcus ➡️
Also, did you take me to be saying that taste in x necessarily involves both liking AND disliking some x, rather than just having preferences?
I think taste by definition includes likes and dislikes. Otherwise you could simply like everything and have impeccable taste!
Old 15th March 2014 | Show parent
  #34
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by initialsBB ➡️
No, but I was trying to figure out if you truly have never heard lyrics that you dislike, or if you are simply defining your dislike as indifference.
I have truly never heard lyrics that I dislike.

Just because someone is very different than you in some respect, it doesn't imply that they're using language in an unusual way, or that they're being dishonest or something. You also shouldn't assume that someone is "trolling" just because they're different than you and they're sharing that difference. You have to be able to accept that some people are simply very different than others in some respects. I'm not using "indifferent" oddly. One conventional definition of "indifferent" is, "(feeling that something is) neither good nor bad", and that's how I'm using it in saying that I'm indifferent to the vast majority of lyrics.

One conventional definition of "dislike" is, "feel distaste for or hostility toward". I do not feel that way towards any lyrics.

"Dislike" involves having an aversion to something, finding it displeasurable, having at least mild enmity towards it.

"Indifference" doesn't conventionally imply any of that. It rather implies being neutral, unprejudiced, nonchalant.

The vast majority of lyrics I'm indifferent towards.

I really shouldn't have to explain all of that though. Just saying that I'm indifferent towards most lyrics and don't dislike any should tell you all of that.

And even though maybe it's very different than how you feel, how you react to lyrics, you should be able to accept that not everyone is just like you (and you shouldn't figure that either they're lying or they do not know how to use language conventionally or figure that they're trying to upset you or prompt you to start arguing with them or something if they claim to be different than you).
Quote:
Are there any works in any medium that you dislike?
Yes. That's why I said, and I said it more than once above, that "I have likes and dislikes.
But I do not dislike any lyrics. (In other words, I dislike some other things besides lyrics when it comes to music.)" Why isn't that clear?
Quote:
Is this unique to lyrics
I wouldn't say that there's no other category of thing in the world that I don't dislike, although offhand I'm not thinking of an example. I'm pretty sure there are some . . . it just depends on the thing in question.
Quote:
or do you have an overall policy of only feeling positivity or indifference?
Not really. I just feel however I do and I don't figure that I should feel some way or another if I do not.
Quote:
Does this come naturally to you
So yes, then, it comes naturally.
Quote:
Like you've genuinely never felt the emotion of disliking something,
When someone says that they feel x way about F, or they believe that F is x way or anything like that, there's absolutely no reason to assume that they feel x way about everything imaginable, or that they believe that everything imaginable is x way.

They just feel x way about F, or think that F is x way. And maybe there's nothing else in the world that they feel x way about or think is x way, but they feel/think that about F, which is surely why they specified F in the first place.

I get that often when I state that I'm a subjectivist on value judgments. That doesn't imply that I'm a subjectivist about anything else, just value judgments (which is why one would specify "I'm a subjectivist on value judgments" in the first place).

It does turn out that I'm a subjectivist on a few other things, but simply stating that I'm a subjectivist on value judgments does not imply any of that. It doesn't imply that I think there are no mind-independent facts in the world or anything like that. It could only imply that if I were to believe that the world only consists of value judgments, but that would be a strange (statistically unusual) thing for someone to think, and so we shouldn't assume that anyone would think it unless they say that they do.
Quote:
I think taste by definition includes likes and dislikes.
I wouldn't say that taste must involve both likes and dislikes, just that it has to involve preferences. And if we look at conventional dictionary definitions of "taste", plenty of them would agree with that. For example, "a person's liking for particular flavors", or "a liking for or interest in (something)", "individual preference", "critical judgment, discernment, or appreciation", etc. Sure, there are some definitions of taste that say, "a person's tendency to like and dislike certain things", for example, although note that those definitions do not imply that one must like some Fs and dislike other Fs in order to have a particular taste in Fs.
Quote:
Otherwise you could simply like everything and have impeccable taste!
Since I'm not an objectivist on value judgments, I don't really think it makes a lot of sense to assess anyone's tastes--what are we comparing their tastes to, our own, and assuming that the person is supposed to match our own taste for some reason? Or are we comparing it to some population and assuming they're supposed to match that via an argumentum ad populum?

One's tastes can't be right or wrong somehow.
Old 15th March 2014
  #35
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
it depends; if you listen to the Cure lyrics a lot of it sounds like a fawning teenager. Robert Smith wears his heart on his sleeve but it works. then you listen to Cobain where it's mainly so abstracted as to be close to meaningless. Both styles work because they are amazing artists. couple things help... sounding out (whilst singing obviously!) vowels and chunks of words as you play and turning them into lines is a really natural way of making lyrics work....... poetry, robbing bits from books, keeping a journal and basterdizing bits from that works for me. having an 'emotion' or feeling associated with a song tends to NOT work for me as it tends to sound a bit laboured or attempts to be too smart or concise...... efficiency of meaning is sometimes best looked on from an Irvine-welsh-novel-type-perspective, where he says a lot about nothing for some time and then in one line, you suddenly 'get it'.
Old 15th March 2014
  #36
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🎧 5 years
initialsBB, I can go back to the other stuff in that earlier post that I didn't address yet now, but I'd like you to comment on that last post of mine first, at least saying that you understood it and didn't have a problem with it, or if you still think there's a problem somewhere, specify it so that I don't have to go back over those same points again later.
Old 15th March 2014 | Show parent
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnalia Barcus ➡️
initialsBB, I can go back to the other stuff in that earlier post that I didn't address yet now, but I'd like you to comment on that last post of mine first, at least saying that you understood it and didn't have a problem with it, or if you still think there's a problem somewhere, specify it so that I don't have to go back over those same points again later.
Can you please stop bickering. It's getting old.
Old 15th March 2014 | Show parent
  #38
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank_Case ➡️
Can you please stop bickering. It's getting old.
Usually someone bitching about a thread (whether I'm involved with the thread or not), or saying anything to me that's at all in the tone above is an instant invite to my ignore list (because if you don't like the way I post, then put me on ignore), but I hate to do that to you because I like your contributions as a poster most of the time.

I hate arguing in general.

But if someone is going to challenge things that I say, if someone is going to have an attitude towards me and give me ****, then I'll respond back and have that sort of conversation with them, at least until it's clear that they're going to ignore a bunch of stuff--points I'm making, questions I'm asking, and/or that they're just wanting to argue with me for argument's sake, and then I consider that a waste of my time and I'll just ignore them. (In person what would happen is that they'd end up walking away and not bothering me again.)

And in general, by the way, I put people on ignore when I ask them questions that I'm expecting them to answer but that they just ignore.

I was tempted to put initialsBB on ignore much earlier, because he started out by having an attitude about my comments, but I try to give folks the benefit of the doubt and try to assume that they're acting in good faith and they're interested in having a discussion as "equals" for as long as I can.

Basically, I won't put up with the sort of behavior online that I wouldn't put up with for more than five minutes offline. There are certain sorts of people, certain dispositions, etc. that I won't spend any time with unless I absolutely have to for livelihood purposes. Why would I spend time with that stuff voluntarily online?
Old 15th March 2014 | Show parent
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnalia Barcus ➡️
I hate to do that to you because I like your contributions as a poster most of the time.
Appreciated. Thanks. And it goes both ways. Sincerely.

I take everything people say on this forum with a grain of salt because they are speaking from their own perspective and sooner or later someone is bound to have a different point of view. I've never put anyone on ignore yet. Admittedly, I no longer respond to some people because I just don't want the hassle of fighting it out with them.
Old 15th March 2014 | Show parent
  #40
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank_Case ➡️
Appreciated. Thanks. And it goes both ways. Sincerely.

I take everything people say on this forum with a grain of salt because they are speaking from their own perspective and sooner or later someone is bound to have a different point of view. I've never put anyone on ignore yet. Admittedly, I no longer respond to some people because I just don't want the hassle of fighting it out with them.
Sure, and my putting anyone on ignore never has anything to do with them having a different point of view. It primarily has to do with attitudes.

Unless I have to, I won't spend any time around folks who are regularly complaining, bitching/moaning, negatively criticizing, who are being jerks to other people (it doesn't matter if it's directed at me or not), who aren't comfortable with people being different than other people, who are snobby or elitist or who seem to think that they're smarter/superior to most other folks, or who are constantly trying to one-up folks. I'm not interested in spending any time on people either offline or online if they're like that.

And when someone responds to me as if they want to debate about whatever, putting someone on ignore has to do with whether they'll carry that through while not ignoring points and questions (basically "If you're going to start a Socratic dialogue, be willing to do it thoroughly and be willing to finish it") versus whether it becomes clear that they're just trying argue for its own sake and/or bolster their own ego.
Old 15th March 2014
  #41
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by stclair ➡️
Above quote was in response to comments in the "American Authors" songwriting win thread.

I think this is a great question and deserve it's own thread!
For me, some notable hallmarks of cornball and cheezy lyrics are:

- worn-out, often used conversational phrases -- the sort of thing that are so commonplace we barely even think of them as rising to the level of cliche -- the sort of phrase that falls too easily to one's lips in everyday conversation... they often started as clever bits onece, wore down to tired cliches and have now become worn out parts of language people don't even think about.

- contemporary buzz phrases -- even if they're fresh today, in 6 months they're going to be dated... but what's worse is when someone uses worn out buzz phrases from years past... and they sound really corny the moment you hear them.

- full on cliche figures of speech -- the stuff you've heard a million times. Someone thought it was cute once. If you can't change it up and make it new in some substantial way, it's going to be a drag on your song. A cliche MIGHT not be a deal-breaker in a song, but in the 2 or 3 minutes we have allotted to us, we have to make sure every bit of a song brings value -- arranging words is NOT at all unlike arranging instruments.

- sing songy rhymes, predictable cliche rhymes (moon/june) and rhyme pairs that are two close to each other in the cadence and start sounding like a nursery rhyme.
Old 15th March 2014 | Show parent
  #42
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Quote:
Give me your cheesiest lyric and I will build a killer song around it.
Yes, that approach helps explain the proliferation of music that rarely gets listened to. Nothing wrong with that. But nothing wrong with concentrating on writing good lyrics either. Women tend to like well thought out lyrics more than men, so maybe your request is embedded in your male genetics.
Old 15th March 2014
  #43
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HSA7's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
If Sting can make baby sounds and simply qualify them with semi socially relevant verses, anything goes. Furthermore, Snoop almost single handedly invented a language that many dismissed as babble, which we all completely understand and can speak now.
Old 15th March 2014 | Show parent
  #44
RTR
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by HSA7 ➡️
If Sting can make baby sounds and simply qualify them with semi socially relevant verses, anything goes. Furthermore, Snoop almost single handedly invented a language that many dismissed as babble, which we all completely understand and can speak now.
umm..no. He jacked that **** from Double dutch buss! I did a as soon as I herd him first do it because I was around when the original song was big, so it was nothing but a cheesy stunt that worked with the youth!

EDIT: haha, I just listened to double dutch for the first time in a long time...reminds me of camio..
Old 15th March 2014 | Show parent
  #45
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RTR ➡️
umm..no. He jacked that **** from Double dutch buss! I did a as soon as I herd him first do it because I was around when the original song was big, so it was nothing but a cheesy stunt that worked with the youth!

EDIT: haha, I just listened to double dutch for the first time in a long time...reminds me of camio..
Nah they're different.

Double Dutch uses double talk, the old-school school-yard language where extra syllables (can be any syllable so long as its consistent) are inserted into words: How to Speak Double Talk: 5 Steps - wikiHow

Snoop made up his own: How to Talk Like Snoop Dogg | eHow

He was no doubt inspired by the song. But he doesn't stick to the rules of double-talk, and everyone speaks snoop-talk now.
Old 16th March 2014 | Show parent
  #46
RTR
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 ➡️
Nah they're different.

Double Dutch uses double talk, the old-school school-yard language where extra syllables (can be any syllable so long as its consistent) are inserted into words: How to Speak Double Talk: 5 Steps - wikiHow

Snoop made up his own: How to Talk Like Snoop Dogg | eHow

He was no doubt inspired by the song. But he doesn't stick to the rules of double-talk, and everyone speaks snoop-talk now.
listen to all the guys stuff..also..Dizzuble bizzus is exactly how snoop would say double buss..anyway, imo a gimmick that worked.
Old 16th March 2014
  #47
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Carnalia Barcus's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Hip Hop Bappity Boom
Frumious Bandersnatch workin' a loom
Old 20th March 2014 | Show parent
  #48
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 ➡️
"Cheesy" to me is super positive happy stuff. No conflict, just happiness. From the same place as "say cheeeeeessse" and everyone smiles. The word causes a smile in pronouncing it.

Corny seems to have a different connotation to me. More like someone trying way too hard at something completely played out, ridiculously obvious, or of very little value.
Well, somebody needs to tell Pharrel because that "Happy" song is everywhere. I was like, "Wow. We're happy. Everybody's happy. Let's all be happy." LOL And it's a hit. I saw him perform it on the Oscars. I like the song though. : )
Old 21st March 2014
  #49
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🎧 15 years
Happy is corny. (Or cheesy, I'm easy.) But whimsy is hip. heh

Or at least has a shot at it.

"Jeremiah Was a Bullfrog," corny. "Bang a Gong (Get It On)," whimsical, hip.

Mind you, I'm painfully aware that it is extremely unhip to be a hipster right now. I'm just sayin'.


(Youngsters will just have to get in the time machine to get my references, understood. )
Old 21st March 2014 | Show parent
  #50
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by icansing4real ➡️
Well, somebody needs to tell Pharrel because that "Happy" song is everywhere. I was like, "Wow. We're happy. Everybody's happy. Let's all be happy." LOL And it's a hit. I saw him perform it on the Oscars. I like the song though. : )
Happy definitely has cheesy lyrics! Pharell pulls it off in style, and I think its a track that's very hard to dislike, but its def on the cheesy side. I don't think cheese always means bad.
Old 21st March 2014 | Show parent
  #51
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Godson's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagelove ➡️
I think if you can tell what they are going to rhyme with, 2 lines ahead.... eh

Didn't try hard enough.
agreed.
Old 21st March 2014 | Show parent
  #52
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 ➡️
Happy is corny. (Or cheesy, I'm easy.) But whimsy is hip. heh

Or at least has a shot at it.

"Jeremiah Was a Bullfrog," corny. "Bang a Gong (Get It On)," whimsical, hip.

Mind you, I'm painfully aware that it is extremely unhip to be a hipster right now. I'm just sayin'.


(Youngsters will just have to get in the time machine to get my references, understood. )
The first reference is Three Dog Night and the second is T. Rex. When it comes to hipsters, I know none personally but I hate them.
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