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Who uses EQ while recording - why/why not?
Old 13th October 2006 | Show parent
  #31
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcCirDude ➡️
Jim Williams has a Bösendorfer Imperial???!!! Hey, Jim!!!!
I wish!

I have a Kurzweil.

It is tweaked, though.

Here's an example how everyone has probably experienced phase shift problems, the low end.

Most audio gear rolls off the low end through capacitors. The designer selects the value to allow a certain low end bandwidth, say 15 hz. Since the phase curve starts a decade above, the phase shift kicks in at 150 hz and leads more and more as you go down in frequency. Still, not too big a deal. Now, go through all the stages, outboard roll-off, console roll-off and those roll-offs accumulate from so many stages, it's like a 20 pole filter with a lot of accumulated phase shift which can be in the hundreds of degrees. That gives you that sloppy bass everyone bitches about. Some companies offer circuits to compensate, like the little labs unit or the SPR circuits in Aphex gear or some BBE stuff.

The solution is of course direct couple all the designs. Since that's not possible, use larger coupling caps. If you set the roll-off at 2 hz, phase shift doesn't kick in until 20 hz or below = not a problem. If you do use roll-off as in high pass filters, try to use linear phase or bessel designs as these give you a linear phase shift.
If you use transformers, the linear phase of Jensen's designs will help.

JIm Williams
Audio Upgrades
Old 13th October 2006 | Show parent
  #32
Gear Guru
 
thethrillfactor's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundawg ➡️
Thanx for the input folks, now let me go a little deeper...

(Hypothetical situation)

I have done all the mic selection/placement/preamp/source/room changes I can, and still not exactly the sound I'm looking for - (remembering time and gear are limited).

Is it better to now facilitate this with eq or wait for mix?
Personally i would look someplace else first.

With experience you pretty know what EQ can do and can't in any situation.

If you don't like what you hear than the problem is still there. Eqing it away may help divert your attention but it doesn't take away from the problem.

What is it that you don't like by the way?
Old 13th October 2006 | Show parent
  #33
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soundawg's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Nothing specific I don't like right now today this second. Just a question for future practice - and to know if one of my next 'slutty' upgrades should include EQ.

I seem to be leaning towards more pre/mic/comp before I go to more EQ.
Old 13th October 2006 | Show parent
  #34
Gear Guru
 
thethrillfactor's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundawg ➡️
Nothing specific I don't like right now today this second. Just a question for future practice - and to know if one of my next 'slutty' upgrades should include EQ.

I seem to be leaning towards more pre/mic/comp before I go to more EQ.

Well in general that's the one question i ask myself when i start engineering a project:

What don't i like here?

Because what i do like is usually pretty clear.heh


If you can figure it out faster you will instantly become better and "your sound" will start to come through.
Old 14th October 2006 | Show parent
  #35
84K
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84K's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
I compress the room mics on my drums so much it should be illegal. But, they sound so fuking huge that way, so why not? Requires mucho eq before and after the compression chain to get it to sound the right blend of big fat and nasty.
Old 14th October 2006 | Show parent
  #36
Lives for gear
 
s.d.finley's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I will use EQ while tracking.....

Sometimes I will just use a little low end roll off, or notch filtering to get rid of ringing/resonance in drums, or severe silibance in voices.

Sometimes I will use radical EQ to achieve a certain sound that the client KNOWS they want.

And its always hardware....I will use soft eqs during the mixing stage tho...
Old 14th October 2006 | Show parent
  #37
Gear Maniac
 
scotty-o's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I also EQ on the way in if needed to get the sound in my head on tape.
It's usually light EQing with broad Q's and hi/lo shelf.
And filters. I love filters LOL

It's important to me to try and get sounds that work together at the tracking stage rather than cut everthing flat and sort it out later. If it means a bit of EQ on the way in, then so be it

I approach EQ during tracking as general "tone controls" not "surgical" and go easy with it.

I find gentle EQing more "undoable" come mix time when the big picture starts to become more clear but I'll work toward the big picture right from the start.

FWIW
-Scotty
Old 14th October 2006 | Show parent
  #38
Gear Guru
 
u b k's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
sometimes the source is such that no mic or placement will mitigate the offending qualities. like a male voice with a strange peaky formant, only at 2.5k, only on certain notes.

gotta eq it out, or else the gremlin will smash into tape harder, thus exaggerating it.

same thing with the boom note on so many acoustics. you can move that mic around all day, it won't change the fact that the instrument itself produces one tone 6db louder than all the others. eq it out.

many other examples, too tired to type.


gregoire
del
ubk
.
Old 14th October 2006 | Show parent
  #39
Lives for gear
 
absrec's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by max cooper ➡️
...recording with EQ can help you with your gain structuring.

If for example, you know you're gonna cut somewhere, you can cut and gain it back up. If you do it in the mix, you're gonna lose some level...

...Last but not least, sometimes EQing during tracking sounds different from doing it while mixing. Why? I don't really know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor
If you don't like what you hear than the problem is still there. Eqing it away may help divert your attention but it doesn't take away from the problem.
These two posts really sum it up for me. I don't know why either, but eqing to tape to help get a more focused signal does make a huge difference IMO. I find that when blending sources such as an inside and an outside kick drum mic, eq is essential. Inevitably, you're going to want to get rid of a lot of stuff anywhere between 200Hz and 600Hz in order to make both mics work together to reproduce the one sound.

However, there does come a point when you are just eqing the sound away instead of enhancing it. If you are getting too much 400Hz from a guitar cabinet, you need to either turn the gain down on the amp or move the mic closer to the dust cover of the speaker. Knowing when enough is enough is all about what you're hearing, though. I also agree with whoever said you have to make mistakes in order to learn how to do something effectively and to know when to back off. (Kind of sounds like a Kenny Rogers song, doesn't it? heh ) I think that's what Bruce Swedien meant when he said "you just have to be born with it".

-Aaron
Old 14th October 2006
  #40
Gear Guru
 
theblue1's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Back in the tape days, a lot of folks got into the habit of boosting treble on almost everything, figuring you were gonna loose a certain amount in the tape process (particularly if you were using 15 ips). Also, those of us stuck using the benighted dbx noise reduction system often hit the treble hard going in with the assumption that boosting treble later might not boost much hiss (as it would on the same gear without dbx NR) but that it could make dbx dynamic mistracking (usually in the form of "breathing") more noticeable.

Today, with today's affordable, relatively flat mixers and very affordable condenser mics and -- of course -- digital conversion/storage, losing high end isn't the issue it once was.

One of the first habits I had to break when I went digital in the early 90s was tweaking the treble up...

It's like salting your food before you taste it.
Old 15th October 2006 | Show parent
  #41
11413
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by u b i k ➡️
gotta eq it out, or else the gremlin will smash into tape harder, thus exaggerating it.
good example.. the sluts here go on and on about adding harmonic content to sounds etc etc etc so it makes PERFECT SENSE to cut all the crap you don't want out of the sound BEFORE you add all those tasty harmonics to it, right? so there's ONE example...

i tend to use hp/lp filters a lot when recording, if possible.. gotta have small to have big, right?

and, as a general rule, i TRY to get 95% of the sound BEFORE it hits the computer... because, generally, you're not gonna add all that much to the sound after it's in there.... at least mixing ITB...

again, there are exceptions... plug-ins from Mars which completely change the sound... SSL channel E.. any of the 1000 ableton live or pluggo tricks...

but really, the BEST arguments i've seen for using EQ when tracking is: I've got a $4000 eq that kills those stupid plug-ins *and* I'm gonna smash this down to tape and who wants to add tape fur to crap and exaggerate the problem?

so there... fix it in the mix
Old 15th October 2006 | Show parent
  #42
Lives for gear
 
soundawg's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Up late enjoying a well deserved glass of wine.

Well, I must say I am surprised… A lot of thumbs up for EQ on the way in!

I don’t know why – but I guess I thought there would be more banner holders for no EQ.

So as long as I don’t appear to be shooting myself in the foot – I will continue to address things with EQ like I address things with compression – uh - when I have to.

Ha! Hindsight!

Old 15th October 2006 | Show parent
  #43
11413
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundawg ➡️
So as long as I don’t appear to be shooting myself in the foot – I will continue to address things with EQ like I address things with compression – uh - when I have to.
if you have a lot of inputs do both... split the signal into 2 and eq one while recording both the "dry" and "wet"... then go crazy with it because there are no consequences.

patchbay mults are your friend.

i get bored in the control room a lot so i'll see some lonely piece of gear sitting there and i'll bang something thru it off a mult.... sometimes it's folly, sometimes it's exactly what a track needs... either way, yer learnin...

put mics in crazy places once you have all the essentials covered... twist those eq knobs like mad until they give up something fun... same with compression...

eqing later is just prolonging the inevitable and adding one more decision to mix when there are almost always more time pressures and less experimental vibe...
Old 16th October 2006 | Show parent
  #44
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundawg ➡️
Up late enjoying a well deserved glass of wine.

Well, I must say I am surprised… A lot of thumbs up for EQ on the way in!

I don’t know why – but I guess I thought there would be more banner holders for no EQ.

So as long as I don’t appear to be shooting myself in the foot – I will continue to address things with EQ like I address things with compression – uh - when I have to.

Ha! Hindsight!

I think if you correllated the age of the responders or years of experience to whether EQ is used going in one might find an interesting conclusion.

Just look for the guys without one foot.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades
Old 16th October 2006 | Show parent
  #45
Harmless Wacko
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams ➡️
I think if you correllated the age of the responders or years of experience to whether EQ is used going in one might find an interesting conclusion.

Just look for the guys without one foot.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades
‘The older I grow the more I distrust the familiar doctrine that age brings wisdom.’
— H. L. Mencken

SM.
Old 16th October 2006 | Show parent
  #46
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Ok..so the question morphs a little to me to this:

EQ>Compress in?

Compress>EQ in?

I prefer the former myself.
Old 17th October 2006 | Show parent
  #47
Dot
Lives for gear
 
Dot's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundawg ➡️
Right now all I have for outboard eq is one Avalon AD2055.

Other outboard gear...

PREAMPS...

1 x Avalon AD2022
2 x ART PRO MPA
12 x RME (Fireface with OctaMicD)

COMPs...

1 x Avalon AD2044
2 x ART PRO VLA

MICS...

2 x ATM 4050
5 x ATM 25
2 x ATM 41he
2 x AKG C1000
1 x AKG D112
1 x EV RE-20
2 x Sure 57
2 x Apex 460 (going in for 'Dave Thomas CEK-12' upgrade)

I'm workin on it!

I guess this thread is (sort of) aimed at helping me decide where to spend next.

Soundawg
soundawg, what kind of music are you recording? I say that because if you're recording rock you're not anywhere close to having an EQ - even a good one - make a real difference in the overall texture and sound you're getting. Those Avalons are only going to take you so far. The ART's and the RME are fine for auxiliary pres - especially when you have a band in and need to track drums. But you're really going to need some pres with some meat on them to start making a difference.

How'd you wind up so heavily into Avalon? That's a lot of dough for gear that's very likely not giving you want you want. I could see it if you were doing straight-up sugary pop, some country, some hip-hop, and even classical recordings. But if you're doing any music with more energy than that, you're pres are one of the areas where you're most likely choking.

Depending on what you're doing, a smart move might be to unload all the Avalon gear, and get into some more appropriate pres. Something like an API 3124, A Designs Pacifica, Great River NV, Phoenix Audio. More color, more meat, more balls.

And then if you want some comps, the VLA is cool, and you could pick up some RNC's and RNLA's for cheap.

And lose those C1000's.

EQ is not the answer at this point. Get more appropriate gear. Get better gear. Even if it's less gear. I'd suggest you invest in pres, mics, better AD, some comps - long before you'd really need any EQ.

My 2¢.
Old 17th October 2006 | Show parent
  #48
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max cooper's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundawg ➡️

I have done all the mic selection/placement/preamp/source/room changes I can, and still not exactly the sound I'm looking for - (remembering time and gear are limited).

Is it better to now facilitate this with eq or wait for mix?
One good reason to EQ at this point is to see if the sound you're getting can actually become the sound you're looking for or not.

If it can't be dialed into something that you think sounds good, you're not done.
Old 17th October 2006 | Show parent
  #49
11413
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Methlab ➡️
EQ>Compress in?
Compress>EQ in?
I prefer the former myself.
I prefer HP/LP filter > Comp > EQ

don't generally like compressing after EQ because your boosts will be cancelled out by the comp... of course, this can be useful if you're looking to make the comp grab in a certain way... but generally, it sucks.
Old 17th October 2006 | Show parent
  #50
C/G
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C/G's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mount Cyanide ➡️
No rules.
See above.

Personally I don't do it much, but I am becoming more confident with doing it. I used to never track with compression either and now I do a little here and there.
Old 17th October 2006 | Show parent
  #51
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 11413 ➡️
I prefer HP/LP filter > Comp > EQ

don't generally like compressing after EQ because your boosts will be cancelled out by the comp... of course, this can be useful if you're looking to make the comp grab in a certain way... but generally, it sucks.
Cool..im going to try that tonight. I was using the logic of the compressor catching peaks, but now I think about it the way you stated it, it will still be doing that.
Old 17th October 2006
  #52
Lives for gear
 
PlugHead's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
FWIW,

I have no hesitation EQ'ing while tracking, but only if the CR/monitoring is accurate: guessing what you're doing never helps anything.

I usually use outboard to sweeten samples/beatz, or put some definition/striketone on kick, snap on snare, or maybe slightly alter the tone of other instruments, but rarely doing 'drastic' stuff - mostly soft sculpting the tones.

I've never found any SW EQ's to perform anywhere near as musically as good OB units...

YMMV,
Old 17th October 2006 | Show parent
  #53
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Jamz's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Usually a little going in to correct or reduce problems that can't be totally eliminated by mic placement. I like to listen to the source within the music and Eq that source rather than waiting to use more drastic eq on the recorded (snapshot) of the source. Also eq accordingly in the mix once all of the pieces are on the tabel. No rules.
Old 17th October 2006 | Show parent
  #54
Lives for gear
 
lofi's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
eq on the way in... i would say that depends on the source...

on kik drum - always...

on acoustic guitar - never....

but im not afraid of eq on the way in (or any other procesing)...why should i be ?

everything is eq really.... even the position of source in the room heh
Old 17th October 2006 | Show parent
  #55
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
There are really several issues.

The obvious one is ultimate sound quality.

Far less obvious is the positive or negative effect signal processing has on people performing overdubs. I've stopped using compression while tracking for this reason. Eq. is a mixed bag. Sometimes the performance is better if the player hears the eq. as they play. Sometimes not.

Finally there is the matter of not knowing what various elements will need until the entire arrangement has been decided on and is in place for the mix.

On the other hand there is a lot going for locking down the sound as you build the production like we used to do in 4 and 8 track days.

The main thing is to be considering all of these factors for the needs of each particular project.
Old 17th October 2006 | Show parent
  #56
Lives for gear
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
If I'm cutting frequencies then I'll EQ before I compress. If I'm boosting frequencies then I'll compress before I EQ.
Old 17th October 2006 | Show parent
  #57
Jai guru deva om
 
warhead's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by slipperman ➡️
‘The older I grow the more I distrust the familiar doctrine that age brings wisdom.’
— H. L. Mencken

SM.
You rock.

War
Old 17th October 2006 | Show parent
  #58
Lives for gear
 
superburtm's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 84K ➡️
I compress the room mics on my drums so much it should be illegal. But, they sound so fuking huge that way, so why not? Requires mucho eq before and after the compression chain to get it to sound the right blend of big fat and nasty.
thumbsup
Old 17th October 2006 | Show parent
  #59
Lives for gear
 
Acoustic Cloud's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
EQing a ribbon mic going in is like being in a candy store with alot of choices! Its a good pallate.
Old 17th October 2006 | Show parent
  #60
Quote:
Originally Posted by slipperman ➡️
‘The older I grow the more I distrust the familiar doctrine that age brings wisdom.’
— H. L. Mencken

SM.
"The philosophies of one age have become the absurdities of the next, and foolishness of yesterday has become the wisdom of tommorrow".

- Sir William Osler,
Canadian physician and educator
(1849-1919)

JW.
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