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Can a fantastic drummer make Vdrums sound good
Old 11th April 2013
  #1
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
Can a fantastic drummer make Vdrums sound good

Maybe a stupid question as a fantastic drummer can make anything sound good lol


But here's my dilema, i'm currently working up a decent home studio have a native HD system, 192 digital, focusrite Liquid saffrrie 56 and some great amps, vocal mics, guitars etc... decent studio setup for home.

I cannot have drums in the house, I do have free access to a great studio to record real drums so it's not a massive issue. But would having Vdrums be good at home for working on things more than just demos?

Anyone have experience with them?

Pro's & Cons?

Or recommend any other things?
Maybe just getting a really small kit in and replace all the drums lol

I'm just thinking of making life easier for bringing my drummer round etc.. without bringing a kit etc..

Best

Pete
Old 11th April 2013
  #2
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
I think music type has some bearing on the result but for me the answer is "No"....some might debate that the latest and most expensive V-kits and cymbals can give good results but for me I could never get it close and most drummers just hated them. You can sample but you still need the room and/or overheads to make the kit sound so...

If you want an e-kit to get a real drummers perspective or you dont like programming dont spend a ton of cash...get something simple and then take the final tracks down to that local studio and put the real drums on last.

RH
Old 11th April 2013
  #3
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
yeah it's what i've been thinking. I just wanted to hear what you've just said lol affirmation that you're not gonna be better off with this thing. I've access to drummers who have studios and can send the audio so its no biggie. you know how it is you get into an upgrade buying mode and kinda think well maybe this would come in!

My wife will be glad you've replied! lol
Old 11th April 2013
  #4
Gear Guru
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
The best results would be one that provides a much expressiveness as possible and pair it up with something like BFD2 or another powerful software based drum engine. So at least two zone pads, hopefully three zone cymbals, and two zone hat with real pedal. If you pair that with something like BFD2, though it's never going to touch a real drum kit when it comes down to really fine details, for pop or rock music, which isn't about super subtlety on the drum front that much, it's a reasonable compromise for the self-recorder in a small space.

There are plenty of examples on Youtube of this sort of setup if you want to evaluate them.
Old 11th April 2013
  #5
Lives for gear
 
jayfield's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Roland has a new llne of V-drums--Td-30. They have a a new technology called behavior modelling. I bought a set for my studio, as I don't have the room acoustics for live drum tracking. The pro drummers that have used them have been impressed. The editing options are very powerful. I have used them with the onboard sounds (100 kits) and also to trigger Slate SSD4 and BFD. Addictive Drums and studio drummer. This was my only option for drums in my studio. Have been very happy with the results---as have my clients.
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Can a fantastic drummer make Vdrums sound good-img_1181.jpg  
Old 11th April 2013
  #6
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
can i hear some tracks, I play pop rock.

My sound would be here Lights EP by petermcveigh on SoundCloud - Hear the world’s sounds
Old 11th April 2013
  #7
Gear Addict
 
jayson_p's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
I think the real value in V-Drums is their capability of acting as a controller. V-Drums can be extremely effective for controlling other sound sources and plug-ins like Steven Slate Drums. I've got an old TD8 9 piece kit that I haven't used the sounds on in years but it gets used as a controller constantly. It'll never be a real kit but it gets you close enough to be an effective sketch-pad.

Pretty easy to scrounge up the mesh triggers on ebay these days but where they kill you is the brain; they have to pay for all that "digital modeling so it still sounds like a drum machine" development.
I'd personally be just as happy if Roland produced a brain that didn't even have a tone module part, it would be just a percussion controller.
Old 11th April 2013
  #8
Gear Maniac
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Yes, of course they can sound good. It’s just triggered samples at the end of the day, and how many million good sounding records use drum samples?
Old 11th April 2013
  #9
Lives for gear
 
tiny333's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
No ffs get a drum kit

Der
Old 11th April 2013 | Show parent
  #10
Gear Guru
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayson_p ➑️
Pretty easy to scrounge up the mesh triggers on ebay these days but where they kill you is the brain; they have to pay for all that "digital modeling so it still sounds like a drum machine" development.
I'd personally be just as happy if Roland produced a brain that didn't even have a tone module part, it would be just a percussion controller.
There's value in the brain for a standalone practice setup, no cranking up the computer and loading a session and all that. Just sit down and play. But yeh, it's a pretty big premium for something that a lot of us would never use in the actual recorded material.

I guess another way it could be useful is to record using the local sounds, for minimum latency, but just record the MIDI and then switch over to BFD, SD, etc... when you are done.
Old 11th April 2013 | Show parent
  #11
Gear Guru
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbrunskill ➑️
Yes, of course they can sound good. It’s just triggered samples at the end of the day, and how many million good sounding records use drum samples?
Yeah, but what percentage of these records are triggering samples off a kit and layering them with real mics, overhead mics and room mics, and what percentage of them are triggering samples only??

Of course there will be 'styles' where it might work, but for many of those styles, abstractly programmed drums would suffice or even be preferred. The point of a kit, it seems to me, is to get a drummer's performance. Thus the 'useability' of a samples-only kit is reduced from "millions" to a more modest number of projects.

I have a pad kit, and while I use it for practice, and use it for quick programming of scratch tracks, I can count on the fingers of one hand the songs where those samples-only tracks made it into the final mix. And never the cymbals. FWIW I never heard a sampled cymbal that I thought sounded good.

unless you hit it only once! heh
Old 11th April 2013
  #12
Lives for gear
 
jayfield's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
The new Roland TD-30's are used every week on American Idol--for what that's worth. The playability and sensitivity on these things has come along way.
Old 11th April 2013 | Show parent
  #13
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brockorama's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayson_p ➑️
I'd personally be just as happy if Roland produced a brain that didn't even have a tone module part, it would be just a percussion controller.

^^^^ THIS ^^^^^

If I use SD drums and rooms, why would I want them from the drum maker?

I realize lots of people do want them, but it should be modular and optional and a strictly "controller" should exist.
Old 11th April 2013
  #14
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Been using a TD-12 vDrum kit with Superior Drummer for many recording projects the past two years, very real drum sounds and mixing options. I love it.
Old 11th April 2013
  #15
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cavern's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Drums are my main instrument(40 years) and i have both.
I have a mic'ed up premier kit and a trigger I/O and pads that i use with SSD4.
SSD4 does sound good but its not like a real drummer playing a real kit.
Im sure you can make a hit with it,im sure its been/being done.Depends what you want on your tracks and what type of music.
The dynamics of the sound is quite different though between the two.
Old 11th April 2013
  #16
Lives for gear
 
jayfield's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
American Idol drummer discusses the Roland TD-30.
Drummer Rex Hardy Jr. discusses using the Roland TD-30KV-S Kit on Idol - YouTube
Old 11th April 2013
  #17
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
So at least two zone pads, hopefully three zone cymbals, and two zone hat with real pedal.
Old 11th April 2013 | Show parent
  #18
Registered User
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayson_p ➑️
I'd personally be just as happy if Roland produced a brain that didn't even have a tone module part, it would be just a percussion controller.
Well they have for years - TMC-6 :: Products :: Roland

Alesis make one too - Trigger|iO Trigger-to-MIDI/USB Interface

The Nord drum can do this as well as giving some nice VA drums.

BUT - I don't see the point if you have a multichannel audio interface.

Simply record the audio directly from your midi pads or triggers. Then use software to replace this audio. Maximum speed and tweakability. You could convert to midi with software if you prefer - usually with the same software.

It's getting harder to justify micing up a real kit - the public are far too conditioned to hearing very manipulated drum sounds so why not cut to the chase.
Old 11th April 2013
  #19
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
Like anything it's what you make of it. With the right kit setup in the right way you can get great results. Many snobs will tell you that you can't match a real kit, but people have been saying that about new tech since tech began. Go by your ear and your budget
Old 11th April 2013
  #20
Gear Maniac
 
stixman's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Love using my vdrum to trigger Studio Drummer, Superior Drummer & Abbey Road kits! More variety of sounds! Tbh I'd get bored with only one kit sound!
Old 11th April 2013 | Show parent
  #21
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brockorama's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi ➑️
Well they have for years - TMC-6 :: Products :: Roland
Wow great, I have an acoustic kit.

So anyone know how the TMC-6 and the RT triggers work on an acoustic kit to trigger Superior?

So I could record the mic'd up kit, and the trigger samples at the same time and blend to taste? Nice. Anyone doing this?
Old 11th April 2013
  #22
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
I think so but not better than said kit being remapped through something like SSD... the vDrums are good but still a lil plastic sounding

Sent from my GT-I8190
Old 11th April 2013
  #23
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
Cheers

Cheers everyone.

Realistically it's what i expected to hear. And i could probably spend my money on other things. It was just for convienience but if it's only really gonna deliever to a demo level, it's not really worth it! for the money i could do a cheap conversion of my loft and stick some sound proofing and a patch bay in it lol

best

Pete
Old 11th April 2013
  #24
Lives for gear
 
apartment dog's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
I just got a basic Alesis e-drumkit. Record midi with it.
Of course soundwise it won't make a difference in my songs cause I'll be using
samples but it's far more musical to get to ideas like this, playing is much more rounder and logical than programming even with a starter kit.
Drums are not my main instrument but drums are very important with pop, rock etc.
So I feel I have gained much for a bit of money.
Now I plan to start songs that would benefit from real drumparts in a different way and feel more inspired, a lot more options to get a better start for a song so that bassplaying, guitarplaying will also benefit.
But this is about songwriting and recording decent home stuff, not about a studio.
Old 11th April 2013
  #25
Gear Addict
 
RoadToNever's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I think good monitoring for the performer, good velocity mapping and good samples would be key.
Old 11th April 2013
  #26
Lives for gear
 
PlatinumSamples's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years





Cheers,

Rail
Old 11th April 2013
  #27
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charlieclouser's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Of course it all depends on the style of music you're doing, but with a good external sample library you can get ridiculously great results.

I've played electronic kits since the SDS-V was a current product (1980s), and these days I prefer the 2box Drumit5 electronic kit, since it's brain allows you to load user samples and the triggering and response feels quicker and more natural than what I've gotten from Roland V-drums, but Roland's high-end stands and pads are a bit nicer and more rugged than the 2box. The 2box brain has 4gb of user sample ram and you dump samples via USB. The pads have mesh heads, rim sensors, and 3-zone cymbals. The hihat is also about the best I've played... it's pretty great.

If you use a good drum library plugin (Slate, BFD, Superior, or one of the many Kontakt-based libs) then either the 2box or the Roland can give great results. Here's a couple of demo videos of someone playing the Drumasonic libraries for Kontakt from a 2box kit:

DRUMASONIC 2 played via 2BOX e-drums - YouTube

Amazing drum solo [drumasonic 2 preset walkthrough] - YouTube
Old 12th April 2013 | Show parent
  #28
Lives for gear
 
cavern's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanvictim ➑️
Like anything it's what you make of it. With the right kit setup in the right way you can get great results. Many snobs will tell you that you can't match a real kit, but people have been saying that about new tech since tech began. Go by your ear and your budget
Many snobs have both and actually know what ther're talking about.heh
Old 12th April 2013 | Show parent
  #29
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavern ➑️
Many snobs have both and actually know what ther're talking about.heh
If you know what you are talking about and still can't get a good sound with decent equipment, then either your production skills or drumming skills suck big time
Old 12th April 2013
  #30
Gear Guru
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Well, I'm certainly no snob, but clearly if the part involves a lot of subtlety, the e-drum setup just can't match a real kit, at all. This is just fact. When every pad on a kit is maybe equivalent to those Korg WaveDrums, and we have BFD15 with 320GB of samples per kit, then maybe it'll happen. But right now, it's not the case. If it's just straight ahead pop or rock, then yeh, it's pretty doable. But, beyond that, the expressive limitations are going to start to show.

Ultimately, you will either sacrifice sound or expressiveness. The brain on the e-kit can maybe do things like sense the ratio of center head to close to the rim, and do some procedural manipulation to provide variation as you move towards the edge. But you won't get that if you use an external drum synth. But if you don't use the external drum synth, you won't get the much more realistic sound. And even the procedurally manipulated stuff isn't really as expressive as the real thing.

And of course the other issue, as with amp simulators, is that ultimately they can only provide one or a small number of mic'ing options per kit. A real kit isn't just a kit, it's a kit which you mic up. That means you have infinite flexibility for tone through micing. You have much less control with the electronic version. You have to apply all processing after the fact as well, so you can't play with mic position/room vs. processing to get various types of effects.

Again, I'm not a snob. I would LOVE to be able to afford even a TD11KV for my apartment here. But it's just fact that real instruments still very much have the advantage if subtlety and flexibility are important. Otherwise, you basically adjust what you do to fit with the available expression that simulated instruments provide. Sometimes that's enough, sometimes it's not.
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