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vintage 1960's vibe
Old 31st January 2013 | Show parent
  #31
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donnylang's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by l.sicilian ➡️
I thought so...

For the record -- what have you done in the 60s exactly, as far as playing, recording, mixing and producing is concerned? You sound like some who read a lot.

Valves "lived" anywhere in the 60s -- not just in the "mixing desk/recorders".

Valve mics were popular in the 60s for example.





That's right -- you can't say that.



Nothing new -- anyone can Google that, you have just quoted from interviews, books, YouTube and GS....

--

Sound of the 60s? Get some tubes in your signal my friends... doesn't matter where they "live".

--
I was not alive in the '60s. I have studied the history over many years, corresponded and talked with some of the engineers and musicians, and done many recordings and experimentations to get in the ballpark of a '60s sound (listen to the link above). I use tube and solid state equipment.

Your quote, "Valves. Period" is simply incorrect -- THAT IS ALL. Solid State was a major player in the '60s sound ALONG WITH TUBE. This is not opinion - it is fact. If you're not debating that solid state recorders, mixers, mics, etc. were used, then this debate is pointless.

Sure, tube mics were around -- but just as many non-tube mics were used.

It has been my mission in recording to get closer to a '60s sound. There is a lot of BS out there regarding how to do it. This idea that 'tubes' are the magic '60s sound is FALSE and seems more like a marketing scheme for digital users to add something to their sound. You can get a '60s sound without tubes -- many classic records have proven this.

Why don't you post an example of the '60s sound that you're getting, and we'll go from there.
Old 31st January 2013
  #32
Deleted User
Guest
I worked in several East Coast rooms back in the late 60's and through the 70s. Tubes rapidly got replaced by the "new" solid-state gear, if for no other reason than to control room temperatures! Frankly, I agree with the posts that said the TECHNIQUES were what made the sound, much more that tube vs solid-state. By the later 60s multiple close-mic'ing was the choice rather than a single 47 or 44 in the room.....
Old 31st January 2013 | Show parent
  #33
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donnylang's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by zinzin ➡️
yeah, THAT sounds like the 60s. what kind of reverb did you use? did you send everything via send into the same reverb?
and i like the slightly "trashy" acoustic guitar sound. what recording chain?
(This is a rough reference mix for a work in progress).

The reverb is a Biamp unit. same reverb send/return for all, except the back vocals which were bounced from 4 tracks to one track on their own send/return, which was bounced with the track. The recorder is a 1966 Ampex AG300 8 track (the original machine from Sunset Sound in Los Angeles). Mic preamps are UA 610. No compression or effects (except the reverb) on anything. Mixer is a Teac Model 5. This was mixed to an Ampex 440 mono 1/4" machine. the 1/4" was transferred to CD burner and uploaded to soundcloud.

Mics were AT4033 for back vocals, Shure 545 for drums, EV 631a for timables, and Shure SM53 for the acoustic 12-string.
Old 31st January 2013
  #34
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zinzin's Avatar
You have a very nice and individual chain - i like it.
Only one mic for the drums? As overhead?
Old 31st January 2013 | Show parent
  #35
Jr. Gear Slut 2nd class
 
chessparov's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Hey Donny, really appreciate vintage analog enthusiasts like yourself, regardless of when you were born!

IMHO this is why sometimes it's better for some GS members to use their REAL names vs. a handle.

One "low end" (not so secret weapon) on the mic pre front, is the Bellari MP105. One nice match for it for singing is the EV 635a BTW.

Although it can be modded ala Black Lion to be cleaner for mic input...it's still pretty effective on vocals IF you use a cleaner pre first to bring the signal up to line level. Then input the mic signal into the MP105 at line level, and keep the tube gain near minimum.

IMHO some cool free plug-ins to mess around with for vintage-ish tone are the Kjaerhus Classic series, particularly the Classic Delay for thickening or adding slap back effects on vocals. In fact, getting my SM57 to sound a little more SM7-ish ala the delay set at 50ms right now!

FWIW also dig the Joe Meek style opto compression too...

Chris
Old 31st January 2013 | Show parent
  #36
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donnylang's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chessparov ➡️
Hey Donny, really appreciate vintage analog enthusiasts like yourself, regardless of when you were born!
thanks, I appreciate that sentiment !
Old 31st January 2013 | Show parent
  #37
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donnylang's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by zinzin ➡️
You have a very nice and individual chain - i like it.
Only one mic for the drums? As overhead?
Yes, one mic (Shure 545 in this case) ... it's probably closer than what most people would consider 'overheads' though.

something like this:
Attached Thumbnails
vintage 1960's vibe-269808_4801639528692_1740808850_n.jpg  
Old 31st January 2013 | Show parent
  #38
Gear Guru
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by donnylang ➡️
I was not alive in the '60s. I have studied the history over many years, corresponded and talked with some of the engineers and musicians, and done many recordings and experimentations to get in the ballpark of a '60s sound (listen to the link above). I use tube and solid state equipment.

Your quote, "Valves. Period" is simply incorrect -- THAT IS ALL. Solid State was a major player in the '60s sound ALONG WITH TUBE. This is not opinion - it is fact. If you're not debating that solid state recorders, mixers, mics, etc. were used, then this debate is pointless.

Sure, tube mics were around -- but just as many non-tube mics were used.

It has been my mission in recording to get closer to a '60s sound. There is a lot of BS out there regarding how to do it. This idea that 'tubes' are the magic '60s sound is FALSE and seems more like a marketing scheme for digital users to add something to their sound. You can get a '60s sound without tubes -- many classic records have proven this.

Why don't you post an example of the '60s sound that you're getting, and we'll go from there.
Uh, no. The fact is that for most of the 60s nobody used anything solid state for the same reason nobody flew jet aircraft in WWI. Professional level solid state didn't exist until the end of the decade.
Old 31st January 2013
  #39
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zinzin's Avatar
That's how you recorded the kit? Interesting setup. Like your teac, i have a teac a3300sx 2track 1/4, very nice for vintage rock. Would love to have your 8track.
Old 31st January 2013 | Show parent
  #40
Gear Guru
 
FFTT's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
In previous discussion on getting vintage vibe and tone, the one most common factor was mic bleed and capturing a LIVE performance.

Watch how the Bluegrass bands still use stage positioning and distance from the mic for their overall band & vocal mix into one central microphone.
Old 31st January 2013 | Show parent
  #41
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donnylang's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by PRobb ➡️
Uh, no. The fact is that for most of the 60s nobody used anything solid state for the same reason nobody flew jet aircraft in WWI. Professional level solid state didn't exist until the end of the decade.
That's completely false. Early solid state designs like the Ampex AG350 and AG300 are outstanding. These came out in 1965 and 1966 and made made classic recordings. And plenty of people who worked for Ampex and designed these units prefer the sound over their tube predecessors. And the Scully 280 as well -- including the fantastic solid state (germanium) mic preamps. Most major recording studios began using solid state tape recorders around '65-'66, for example. How many tube 8-track recorders have you ever seen? The answer is probably less than 10. With the exception of Columbia in LA (and maybe a couple other homebrew jobs), who used an Ampex PR-10/300 hybrid, just about every 8-track recording ever made was done on a solid state recorder.

Westrex introduced a solid state mixer (one was used for the 'Beverly Hillbillies' soundtrack) in 1965.

Bell Sound used a solid state console (designed by Dan Cronin) in the mid-'60s:

http://books.google.com/books?id=wQo...und%22&f=false

This conversation is silly. It was absolutely possible to create a great sounding, classic recording using solid state gear in the mid-late '60s. And plenty of people did.
Old 31st January 2013 | Show parent
  #42
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O.F.F.'s Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by FFTT ➡️
In previous discussion on getting vintage vibe and tone, the one most common factor was mic bleed and capturing a LIVE performance.

Watch how the Bluegrass bands still use stage positioning and distance from the mic for their overall band & vocal mix into one central microphone.
I think I mentioned something along these lines earlier in this thread but it didn't get much traction.
Seems people are obsessed with the idea that it is all in the gear rather than how you use it.

IMO people can use all the vintage tube gear they can get their hands on but unless they record like in the '60s the vibe will forever be elusive.
Old 31st January 2013 | Show parent
  #43
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donnylang's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by zinzin ➡️
That's how you recorded the kit? Interesting setup. Like your teac, i have a teac a3300sx 2track 1/4, very nice for vintage rock. Would love to have your 8track.
yeh, that photo wasn't from this recording, but it was a similar setup.

i like those older teac decks.
Old 31st January 2013
  #44
Registered User
 
Rick Sutton's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Did I miss it somewhere in this thread? The 60's sounded the way it did because it was the 60's. Seriously, it was a cultural revolution that was advanced and communicated by the shoulders of the music at the time. Experimentation everywhere using whatever technology was available. It was tribal.....way different atmosphere than today. And yes, it was fueled in large part by grass.

I was there......I kinda remember....I'm pretty sure. Well, anyway, I was there!
Old 31st January 2013 | Show parent
  #45
Lives for gear
 
donnylang's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by O.F.F. ➡️
I think I mentioned something along these lines earlier in this thread but it didn't get much traction.
Seems people are obsessed with the idea that it is all in the gear rather than how you use it.

IMO people can use all the vintage tube gear they can get their hands on but unless they record like in the '60s the vibe will forever be elusive.
Right but that's only part of it. Sometimes the *****slutz' tend to miss the actual gear element (particularly ignoring inconvenient things like specific tape machines and tape types) in these discusssions.

Some people recorded piecemeal in the '60s too, particularly toward the end of the decade. You even have some one-man-band stuff, and it still has sonic characteristics of a "60s sound".

The biggest problem I have encountered is that drummers don't play like the '60s recordings. Everybody wants to be John Bohnam (gross).
Old 31st January 2013 | Show parent
  #46
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by PRobb ➡️
Uh, no. The fact is that for most of the 60s nobody used anything solid state for the same reason nobody flew jet aircraft in WWI. Professional level solid state didn't exist until the end of the decade.
Capitol Records in NY had a custom solid state console in 1963 (the date codes on the capacitors were 1962). The Stones "Satisfaction" was recorded on a custom RCA solid state console at their Hollywood studios in 1965.

RCA introduced the RT-21a in 1961, arguably the first professional solid state tape machine.
Attached Images
File Type: bmp rt21.bmp (384.1 KB, 384 views)
Old 1st February 2013 | Show parent
  #47
Gear Head
 
WadhamSound's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by cathode ➡️
Capitol Records in NY had a custom solid state console in 1963 (the date codes on the capacitors were 1962). The Stones "Satisfaction" was recorded on a custom RCA solid state console at their Hollywood studios in 1965.

RCA introduced the RT-21a in 1961, arguably the first professional solid state tape machine.
It was a combination of that amazing RCA console AND Dave Hassinger that made "satisfaction" and "after-math" amazing..listen to "between the buttons" a year later....again, an amazing result...that was Glyn Johns/Olympic..different board/different ears!!!!
Old 1st February 2013 | Show parent
  #48
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O.F.F.'s Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by donnylang ➡️
Right but that's only part of it. Sometimes the *****slutz' tend to miss the actual gear element (particularly ignoring inconvenient things like specific tape machines and tape types) in these discusssions.

Some people recorded piecemeal in the '60s too, particularly toward the end of the decade. You even have some one-man-band stuff, and it still has sonic characteristics of a "60s sound".

The biggest problem I have encountered is that drummers don't play like the '60s recordings. Everybody wants to be John Bohnam (gross).
You are of course right and may be I am splitting hairs (I am prone to that)
but to me there is a difference between vibe and sound.
You definitely need the right gear to get the sound but vibe comes, to me at least, mostly from the way something is recorded.
Best to get both right.
Old 1st February 2013 | Show parent
  #49
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by donnylang ➡️
I was not alive in the '60s.
Ok, game over then.
Old 1st February 2013
  #50
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
Write and play like they did in the 60s! V72 a good start for gear though.
Old 1st February 2013 | Show parent
  #51
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by donnylang ➡️
Right but that's only part of it. Sometimes the *****slutz' tend to miss the actual gear element (particularly ignoring inconvenient things like specific tape machines and tape types) in these discusssions.
I agree.

Seems to me if you had an authentic studio and instruments from a-z, how or what you did with them would make absolutely zero difference.
Old 1st February 2013 | Show parent
  #52
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donnylang's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murray ➡️
I agree.

Seems to me if you had an authentic studio and instruments from a-z, how or what you did with them would make absolutely zero difference.
Well, I mean the 'content' (if you will) is assumed I guess is what I mean. Of course, the song/performance counts more than anything ... Like if you listen a band like Sharon Jones / Dapkings are recorded on a TV show or something, the whole deal sounds so absolutely different (sonically) than the recordings. Same group of people playing ... that kind of thing.
Old 1st February 2013 | Show parent
  #53
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zinzin's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by donnylang ➡️
The biggest problem I have encountered is that drummers don't play like the '60s recordings. Everybody wants to be John Bohnam (gross).
yep. MY biggest problem in recording my own band. my drummer simply hits the drums to hard and plays to modern and he doesn't get it how to played in the 60s. i gave him all sorts of recordings from whom to learn but nothing ... he won't get it. even the fills he plays - to modern.
not that i want to get a 100% 60s sound for my band, i don't want a revival band, but it should at least sound inspired a bit more by the 60s.
Old 1st February 2013 | Show parent
  #54
Lives for gear
 
O.F.F.'s Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murray ➡️
I agree.

Seems to me if you had an authentic studio and instruments from a-z, how or what you did with them would make absolutely zero difference.
If you had an authentic '60s studio you couldn't help but use it they way they did back then.

On the other hand if you got all the right instruments, pres etc but record to digital filling 100+ channels and probably do some ITB editing you'd struggle to get (or keep) the vibe.
Old 1st February 2013 | Show parent
  #55
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Great thread!

Well,
In the U.K. at around 1967-68 you had for instance;
De Lane Lea with a SS Soundtechiques console and Ampex 440
and later on a 3M M56...

Soundtechiques in Chelsea had pretty much the same setup...

Trident Studios in SoHo had the same setup as well...

Mics, tubes in some of them, like U47, U67, C12
Limiters. tubes in some of them, like UA176, LA-2A, Altec 436c

So some SS gear, some tube...


Sounds are very 1960´s!

Best,
Tom
Old 1st February 2013 | Show parent
  #56
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by zinzin ➡️
yep. MY biggest problem in recording my own band. my drummer simply hits the drums to hard and plays to modern and he doesn't get it how to played in the 60s. i gave him all sorts of recordings from whom to learn but nothing ... he won't get it. even the fills he plays - to modern.
not that i want to get a 100% 60s sound for my band, i don't want a revival band, but it should at least sound inspired a bit more by the 60s.
Go watch a clip of Sly and the Family Stone. They were a 60s band and their drummer hits hard as hell. Carmine Appice, Kenney from the Small Faces, Paul from Blue Cheer, Mitch Mitchell at times, Ringo in Helter Skelter . Rather than say 60s maybe we should just be saying "Hal Blaine"?

As for solid state, plenty of 545s, 421s, 666s, 633s, D12s, etc used, especially on American records.

The biggest component of the 60s sound IMO is room bleed. Early 60s you had few to no baffles. Late 60s you had more baffles, but you still had bleed. After early 70s you had complete isolation.
Old 1st February 2013 | Show parent
  #57
Gear Guru
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
It seems that, in the words of Humphrey Bogart in Casablanca, I was misinformed. The solid state stuff started coming earlier than I realized.

Although that is not really the point. I have always maintained you could do a very retro sounding production in Pro Tools. Just record the way they recorded. Band in a room playing together without a click and a minimum number of mics. Don't quantize, don't pitch correct.
Old 1st February 2013 | Show parent
  #58
Registered User
 
Rick Sutton's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsowa ➡️

As for solid state, plenty of 545s, 421s, 666s, 633s, D12s, etc used, especially on American records.
Those mics are indeed solid but they are not solid state
Old 1st February 2013 | Show parent
  #59
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertone ➡️
Yes, I am. And the gear does make a big difference.

I run 12 channels of Electrodyne / Langevin 201A (think Langevin 5116B's) as my front end along with two Q8 MM61's and two Melcor AE20's. They hit my Aurora 16VT and then my Mac (running either PT's or Logic).

The tube pre's make all the difference in the world when it comes to transient rich sources (like drums). Also what they do for mic'd up guitar amps are just wonderful and we all know how bass likes tube pre's.

My back end is a 1968 Electrodyne console.

With this set up I have no need to return to analog tape... I finally have in the digital world what analog tape use to give me and it's mainly because of those 12 tube mic pre's in the front end. Although the back of the chain doesn't suck either.
Sounds great.
Old 1st February 2013
  #60
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
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