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Room acoustics MYTHS and what is a HIGH QUALITY MONITOR TOOL for you ?
Old 6th February 2013 | Show parent
  #241
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by hans_beiger ➡️
we are not talking about enjoying music here but critical monitoring which translates to other systems.....
.......In a top notch room room, It is so much better to mix on speakers which are speaking the truth of the sound signal, rather than when using colored and boxy speakers on which you have to GUESS if the sound is right or not.
And who exactly has EVER said otherwise, including the so-called "Room Treatment Illuminati"???

Why do you think nearfields were invented?

Why are most nearfields not full range?

Speakers and rooms are BOTH critical to achieving good translation, but the specification derived from the speaker/room system is determined from the available budget and the requirements of the work to be conducted within the system.

No speaker is perfect, no room is perfect.

Are you suggesting otherwise?
Old 6th February 2013 | Show parent
  #242
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Hans, my long winded last post was mearly to offer a few suggestions of shifting your focus to help you with the pain you expressed. It's a simple premise that we know works, if someone is complaining about their finger hurting, kick them in the leg and see if they are still complaining about their finger. As to the groove of a song I mentioned, I was talking about the timing relationship between the individual instruments/elements tracks, not the slight timing differences between speaker drivers or ported output while listening to the stereo mix (the first one you have some control over by getting another take or through editing which is something else you can focus attention on). Bottom line is to learn to shift your focus when listening to less than perfect material or on less than "A" grade speakers for your own benefit. Switch back on the analytical side when you have some control over making it better. Another poster said earlier in this thread and it's worth repeating, "You have to enjoy the music". Even though we may know the techinical details of a magician's trick and can evaluate the aspects of each individual element of that trick, it's important in our job to also be able to shift our focus to match that of the audience and just enjoy the magic.
Old 6th February 2013
  #243
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Back when Altec 604s were SOP in studios almost everybody had the best home system we could afford and we'd bring 7.5 tapes home from the studio to check out.

Near fields are kind of humorous. During the 1970s people were determined to have really great mains. The problem was that the 1/3 octave room tuning eq. often screwed things up so much that near fields became a more trusted reference point other than for the extreme low end while tracking. Fortunately mastering was done with full range speakers and the near fields generally got the mids right so it was often simply a matter of the mastering engineer dialing the low end in.
Old 6th February 2013 | Show parent
  #244
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Clueless's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson ➡️
Back when Altec 604s were SOP in studios almost everybody had the best home system we could afford and we'd bring 7.5 tapes home from the studio to check out.

Near fields are kind of humorous. During the 1970s people were determined to have really great mains. The problem was that the 1/3 octave room tuning eq. often screwed things up so much that near fields became a more trusted reference point other than for the extreme low end while tracking. Fortunately mastering was done with full range speakers and the near fields generally got the mids right so it was often simply a matter of the mastering engineer dialing the low end in.
This makes perfect sense to me, and reinforces what you said early on in this conversation which is that Back In The Day people didn't know about or care about the quality of their rooms. And as your experience teaches, without proper bass trapping, even earnest attempts to create "Grade A" monitors will be compromised by a "Grade C" room.

Thanks for bringing that history into the conversation--those who forget history are doomed to repeat it!
Old 7th February 2013
  #245
Gear Nut
 
qvplite's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Like others have said, it's definitely not a black and white situation. There are so many factors at play beginning with the mind of artist and ending with the sound waves going through space. In between you have instruments, mics, preamps, analog and ITB tools/plugins, and all sorts of other components, including the amp that powers the speakers, cables to the speakers, speaker housing, etc.

Therefore, instead of seeing room treatment as "pointless" because some other factor could be deteriorating the quality of sound, I think you just need to look at it as its own independent factor, which you do have a degree of control over, and which you can improve by a measurable standard. The fact is, good speakers or bad, getting your RT60 to a solid point is important if you use nearfields to mix. I use JBL 2325p's, which are a decent but budget monitor, and having some good room treatment has definitely improved comb filtering problems and the exactness of the stereo field when I listen and mix.
Old 7th February 2013 | Show parent
  #246
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rhizomeman's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by hans_beiger ➡️
the impulse graph is absolutely impressive, there is a part of me which wants to believe
Hans this isn't a theology class - it's factual data. No need to "believe", you only need to admit that your generalization regarding all ported speakers was wrong.
Old 7th February 2013 | Show parent
  #247
Gear Guru
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhizomeman ➡️
Hans this isn't a theology class - it's factual data. No need to "believe", you only need to admit that your generalization regarding all ported speakers was wrong.
the 'graph' is part of the conspiracy, much like dinosaur fossils
Old 7th February 2013 | Show parent
  #248
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq ➡️
the 'graph' is part of the conspiracy, much like dinosaur fossils
Loving the sound that particular conspiracy creates every day here. Does that make me some sort of kult member? heh
Old 7th February 2013
  #249
Lives for gear
 
camus's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I would suggest looking into a BBC 'thin-wall' design like Harbeth. The idea seems to be to move all the cabinet resonance down in pitch and amplitude out of the critical mid-band. The RADIAL drivers are also incredibly liquid sounding. I have had practically zero problems with balance and translation since I switched over. Definitely worth checking out if you have access to a dealer.
Old 7th February 2013 | Show parent
  #250
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mainesthai's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
I have read the whole thread but I can't find the graph.
Kick my butt in the right direction.
Old 7th February 2013 | Show parent
  #251
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mainesthai ➡️
I have read the whole thread but I can't find the graph.
Kick my butt in the right direction.
AOI | PSIAudio
Old 7th February 2013 | Show parent
  #252
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 ➡️
Does that make me some sort of kult member? heh
Are you one of those guys?
A.
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Old 7th February 2013 | Show parent
  #253
Lives for gear
 
mainesthai's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 ➡️



Seems like they used negative/adaptive impedance technology. A patent from the 70's, nothing new.
Old 7th February 2013 | Show parent
  #254
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mainesthai ➡️



Seems like they used negative/adaptive impedance technology. A patent from the 70's, nothing new.
Well, I had not seen or more to the point, heard anything like it before. Maybe I just haven't been looking. Works a charm in any case. Unstrained beauty!

And no, NOT one of those guys, Andy.......keep them away.
Old 7th February 2013 | Show parent
  #255
Lives for gear
 
tomdarude's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
If I understood correctly the reason for this thread was to list some ideas of capable monitoring systems, right?

As for "acoustic experts" you speak of:
I think this topic is not a good one for "online discussion forums", context is what´s really lacking here sometimes!!

I know pretty much what part of acoustics is scientific, but also which part about it still is a matter of "preference" for different models/solutions/philosophies.

None of it really is intuitive and the "lack of experience" keeps 90% of the people from really grasping the full subject and its aftermaths until they gain the real-life experience of hearing many different rooms, systems and solutions! (plus the dimension of its quality naturally IS a big financial issue most of the time, which shouldn´t keep anyone from making a great song)


@ Hans:

have you been to the "Hifitage" last weekend?? we had the Grimm Audio LS1 playing there in a "soso" sounding hotelroom, which actually worked quite well.

Sounds like you would love those:
super low distortion, acoustical LR4 filters, manual (selective) IIR correction, no pre-ringing, closed cabinet, focus on phase and time alignement down to 20Hz.

In Hifi people are rarely concerned about room acoustics, while I sometimes cringe when I walk into really bad sounding rooms (even with okay speakers).

bottom line: BOTH is important!!
and while the Grimm guys as well as maybe the Strauss MF-2 or the United Minorities midfields would make me happy on the speaker side, I´d have to say Thomas from Northward Acoustics is the guy I´d trust with the room.
I can´t wait for the first working Northward room with a pair of LS1, I´ll def. will book some time time to mix there....

(And no, he will not put in as many 4" basstraps as you can afford )
Old 7th February 2013 | Show parent
  #256
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 ➡️
And no, NOT one of those guys, Andy.......keep them away.
There's an increasing number of "PSI kult" members, they're easy to spot though...
A.
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Old 7th February 2013 | Show parent
  #257
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy_bt ➡️
There's an increasing number of "PSI kult" members, they're easy to spot though...
A.
You look like Tom Selleck's little brother.
Old 7th February 2013 | Show parent
  #258
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 ➡️
You look like Tom Selleck's little brother.

You're jealous because you didn't get the PSI tracksuit with yours
A.
Old 7th February 2013 | Show parent
  #259
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
I guess then the static pop noises you hear in the control room are not coming through the moniters due to clocking issues but from the combination of rubbing your legs together when walking around wearing that nylon velour tracksuit and the dry winter air (I think the room treatment guys call it crotch pops).
Old 7th February 2013
  #260
Lives for gear
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by diggo ➡️
.....No speaker is perfect, no room is perfect.

Are you suggesting otherwise?
I will, our room is perfect...ha....
Old 7th February 2013 | Show parent
  #261
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassmankr ➡️
I guess then the static pop noises you hear in the control room are not coming through the moniters due to clocking issues but from the combination of rubbing your legs together when walking around wearing that nylon velour tracksuit and the dry winter air (I think the room treatment guys call it crotch pops).
Damn! I changed all my digital cables twice
I guess I'll have to ground my wheelchair
A.
Old 7th February 2013
  #262
Lives for gear
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Just stop fiddling with your private parts when you are wearing that ridiculous tracksuit and you'll be fine...
Old 8th February 2013 | Show parent
  #263
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by camus ➡️
I would suggest looking into a BBC 'thin-wall' design like Harbeth. The idea seems to be to move all the cabinet resonance down in pitch and amplitude out of the critical mid-band. The RADIAL drivers are also incredibly liquid sounding. I have had practically zero problems with balance and translation since I switched over. Definitely worth checking out if you have access to a dealer.
You are definately a man of good taste. I also tried the Harbeth line of speakers (suggested by Rob Schnapf on this very forum) and fell in love with them.

And of course I shared a bottle of 1989 Camus cognac on NYE, very excellent.
Old 9th February 2013 | Show parent
  #264
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by kats ➡️
You are definately a man of good taste. I also tried the Harbeth line of speakers (suggested by Rob Schnapf on this very forum) and fell in love with them.
I'll second that. Harbeth Monitor 30.1's are sweet, sweet speakers.
Old 18th February 2013 | Show parent
  #265
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
the resulting difference between mid-range monitors vs high-end monitors is smaller than untreated room vs treated room.

thus spread your $$$ to treatment and monitors rather than primarily monitors..

although a good set monitors are like quality knives... an investment for life :D

2c
Old 18th February 2013 | Show parent
  #266
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sxod ➡️
the resulting difference between mid-range monitors vs high-end monitors is smaller than untreated room vs treated room.

thus spread your $$$ to treatment and monitors rather than primarily monitors..

although a good set monitors are like quality knives... an investment for life :D

2c
In terms of an obvious difference in sound, yes but in terms of improved work, my experience working both ways has been that the high end monitors produce better results. This is probably largely because they are more consistent unit to unit. And this is assuming I have a workable room with a minimal amount of as opposed to zero treatment.
Old 18th February 2013
  #267
Lives for gear
 
Full Clip Audio's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
The differences between monitors pales in comparison to the massive dips and peaks (sometimes 30 db between them!) and comb filtering present in many untreated rooms.

I agree with Bob that this does not directly translate to real world results for various reasons but the OP seems to be oblivious to just how crazy the response of untreated and poorly treated rooms can be.

On the monitor side I am extremely happy with my MM-27s
Old 18th February 2013
  #268
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boggy's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by hans_beiger ➡️
........
If the speaker suffers from box coloration and other design faults (which so many monitor speakers with big brands still have and which people don't even realize), you can have the best room treatment in the world but the biggest problem would still be present and it will in no way cure the design problems of the speaker.
........
Yes, I agree... non treated room problems mask speaker problems...

Speakers play a big role in people's motivation, so some speakers which sounds good in mediocre acoustics, may be only masked with too many interferences, so when we solve all of it, and make a comfortable room, some speakers indeed become boring so people loose motivation for work (even if they liked them before). It is not easy to build a good speaker... but if room is not treated, people can't be sure if speaker is good or not... so mediocre speakers can still exist on the market, because many rooms aren't treated enough (one of the reasons) (IMHO)


Old 19th February 2013 | Show parent
  #269
Audio X
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by boggy ➡️
non treated room problems mask speaker problems...
I'd say a non treated room would enhance, mask and magnify speaker problems. Where a proper room would reveal them.
Old 23rd February 2013 | Show parent
  #270
Gear Guru
 
u b k's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
hmmm.. the whole question of whether the room or the monitors make a bigger difference is kinda like asking whether the tires or the suspension are more important.

You want to kick ass at high speeds on tight curves? Get the best tires and suspension you can.

You want to get from point A to point B in one piece? Get whatever works and be ready to drive slow and careful.

But you still need both, or you won't even get out of the damn driveway.


Gregory Scott - ubk
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