Quantcast
Radial stops using Jensen transformer in JDI duplex? - Page 3 - Gearspace.com
The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
Radial stops using Jensen transformer in JDI duplex?
Old 24th March 2014 | Show parent
  #61
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
I made a utc di out of a huge vintage piece and it is indeed the ****. Not transparent like the modern transformers. It (I know this sounds crazy) actually seems to add bass to the signal. It almost sounds like a mic'd amp.
Old 24th March 2014 | Show parent
  #62
Lives for gear
 
turk sanchez's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Drama.

Radial is a solid company. They are not trying to scam anybody.

Get a JDI if you like Radial and still want Jensen as has been stated here already.

I'll always support these guys. I love my workhorse, reamp, 6 channels of Radial DI's at work...great stuff!
Old 24th March 2014
  #63
Gear Maniac
 
Bobby Baird's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Radial Rocks!

Attached Thumbnails
Radial stops using Jensen transformer in JDI duplex?-img_0541.jpg  
Old 24th March 2014
  #64
Registered User
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
I would suspect the only reason Jensen were dropped for the Duplex JDI was because of cost. Basic profit motive. In my opinion it was a serious marketing lapse of judgement to retain the JDI name.

If I was in their shoes I would have released it with a totally different name and color at a price point that make it attractive (i.e. if Jensen traffos are really scarce, put the price up and then come out with an alternative). I would not mind if they explained that the new transformers came from the original Jensen designer, or whatever bull**** spin they could put on it.

Clearly people have been mislead - based on reputation which is now tarnished (in my mind at least). To open up a box and find it didn't have what you paid for inside - that is bordering on fraud, and worth of much inferior brand names.

But what is in a brand name these days anyway? I don't trust brand names anymore ... at this to the list.
Old 24th March 2014 | Show parent
  #65
Registered User
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabies ➑️
Because the NAME on an internal component is more important than how it performs?


Actually yes. Particularly for people who cannot audition a product and have to purchase on reputation alone.

If this new Radial transformer is so **** hot, where are the frequency and phase shift curves that compare them? I suspect there are no graphs because they would not look good.

This is called Bait and Switch, and if you are happy with that I have some cheap real estate you may be interested in purchasing ...
Old 24th March 2014
  #66
Lives for gear
 
ddageek's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Kiwi Did you read the thread!
RADIAL DID NOT DROP JENSEN FOR PRICE REASONS!

They stopped using Jensen in some products because Jensen couldn't deliver enough product!
Anybody who has used any quantity of Jensen transformers or delt with manufacturers who use Jensen are often slow to deliver because while Jensen are an excellent product they often have a hard time Keeping up !
So Radial who are still probably Jensens largest customer, needed another source of quality transformers!
They have said as much!
As a Radial customer appreciate their honesty!
As a Jensen fan appreciate that this has freed up some production time for others who use Jensen!
Part of The quality of a Jensens sound is the care they take and are not trying to produce more just to bank on the Jensen Name!
Old 24th March 2014
  #67
Lives for gear
 
ionian's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Reading Kiwi's posts and listening to Billy Joel's "Angry Young Man" at the same time puts things in perspective...


Regards,
Frank
Old 1st May 2014 | Show parent
  #68
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
Today I used a new Mk5, built with Eclipse. It sounded perfectly, we were not able to tell the difference at all. I have the Mk4 with Jensen, but I would buy Mk5 without any hesitation. But hearing is believing, so everybody should go and try one.

Cheerz.
Old 30th May 2014
  #69
Gear Addict
 
NuSkoolTone's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Just found this thread today. I have an older JDI Duplex and I LOVE IT. I need a live solution to rack so I was looking at the JD6 and noticed the mention of "Eclipse" transformers and was like WTF? I trust that the Transformers are great quality, but I have a SERIOUS problem with it staying the same price! I accepted when I bought the Duplex it was so expensive because of GENUINE JENSEN transformers. The new ones might "Exceed specs" but there is NO WAY they're paying the same for an in house part as they were for the Jensens.

I also STRONGLY agree that they should have came out with an EDI or Eclipse series of Products with a lower price, and simply put a notice up that the Jensen based JDI versions were susceptible to a wait time due to limited production. Those that CARE would be willing to wait! I'm still interested in the JD6, but not at that price when there's not REAL Jensen inside! Now I have to bother to look at options or find a mint JD4.
Old 30th May 2014 | Show parent
  #70
Lives for gear
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by NuSkoolTone ➑️
Just found this thread today. I have an older JDI Duplex and I LOVE IT. I need a live solution to rack so I was looking at the JD6 and noticed the mention of "Eclipse" transformers and was like WTF? I trust that the Transformers are great quality, but I have a SERIOUS problem with it staying the same price! I accepted when I bought the Duplex it was so expensive because of GENUINE JENSEN transformers. The new ones might "Exceed specs" but there is NO WAY they're paying the same for an in house part as they were for the Jensens.

I also STRONGLY agree that they should have came out with an EDI or Eclipse series of Products with a lower price, and simply put a notice up that the Jensen based JDI versions were susceptible to a wait time due to limited production. Those that CARE would be willing to wait! I'm still interested in the JD6, but not at that price when there's not REAL Jensen inside! Now I have to bother to look at options or find a mint JD4.
So, do you insist on wearing designer jeans as well? Maybe the cost wasn't merely because of the Jensen. Just because it's in house doesn't mean that it's any cheaper to manufacture, and it's quite possible that they don't actually manufacture it in house but commission it from another manufacturer.

The real question is if your clients will complain because the sound has deteriorated because the box doesn't say Jensen on it.
Old 30th May 2014 | Show parent
  #71
Gear Addict
 
NuSkoolTone's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by edwinhurwitz ➑️
So, do you insist on wearing designer jeans as well? Maybe the cost wasn't merely because of the Jensen. Just because it's in house doesn't mean that it's any cheaper to manufacture, and it's quite possible that they don't actually manufacture it in house but commission it from another manufacturer.

The real question is if your clients will complain because the sound has deteriorated because the box doesn't say Jensen on it.
Actually sometimes YES, I do. I said my concern was more with paying the same price for non-Jensen not that the new transformers wouldn't be of quality.

IMO/IME, the chances of it costing radial the same for in-house transformers (Or even another company without Jensen's cachet that could justify charging as much) is slim to NONE.

I have an issue with what were previously touted as "employs a Jensen audio transformer as the engine" DIs that now have the SAME name and "high-performance 'made in the USA' audio transformers" or "high performance audio transformers". Here I agree with Kiwi wholeheartedly! It's not until you DIG do you discover the transformers are NOT Jensen, and if you buy a "Replacement" it's not truly the "same". Chances are the audible difference is nil to negligible, but when most of us went "Radial" it was because underneath it was JENSEN with some nice extra features and solid build. What's so hard about that to understand?

On a somewhat unrelated note: Upon reviewing the JD6 (With "merge" only on the first two channels) I disagree with Radial's design departure (As this particular application is keyboards and I do not need/want a ProD8) from the JD4 as what I'd really like is a rackmounted Duplex which is what the JD4 is two of. With real Jensen to boot!

The "Real question" is for each individual to make on their own. In my case, it's price vs. performance, expected behavior (and sound), trusted reliable components which I have experience with (In this case I know/trust Jensen), and whether it suits the intended application. The consideration of clients "worrying" that it says "Jensen" or "Neve" on it is secondary to me. However if I'm paying the NEVE price, it'd better damn well be made by NEVE. Capice?
Old 30th May 2014
  #72
Lives for gear
Ahhhhh the depth and imprint great marketing can have. At least in Jensen's defense, it wasn't hype. But when it overshadows other formitable contenders that could in fact be better alternatives, time to dig deep and use your own ears and only your ears.
Old 30th May 2014 | Show parent
  #73
Lives for gear
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by NuSkoolTone ➑️
Actually sometimes YES, I do. I said my concern was more with paying the same price for non-Jensen not that the new transformers wouldn't be of quality.

IMO/IME, the chances of it costing radial the same for in-house transformers (Or even another company without Jensen's cachet that could justify charging as much) is slim to NONE.

I have an issue with what were previously touted as "employs a Jensen audio transformer as the engine" DIs that now have the SAME name and "high-performance 'made in the USA' audio transformers" or "high performance audio transformers". Here I agree with Kiwi wholeheartedly! It's not until you DIG do you discover the transformers are NOT Jensen, and if you buy a "Replacement" it's not truly the "same". Chances are the audible difference is nil to negligible, but when most of us went "Radial" it was because underneath it was JENSEN with some nice extra features and solid build. What's so hard about that to understand?

On a somewhat unrelated note: Upon reviewing the JD6 (With "merge" only on the first two channels) I disagree with Radial's design departure (As this particular application is keyboards and I do not need/want a ProD8) from the JD4 as what I'd really like is a rackmounted Duplex which is what the JD4 is two of. With real Jensen to boot!

The "Real question" is for each individual to make on their own. In my case, it's price vs. performance, expected behavior (and sound), trusted reliable components which I have experience with (In this case I know/trust Jensen), and whether it suits the intended application. The consideration of clients "worrying" that it says "Jensen" or "Neve" on it is secondary to me. However if I'm paying the NEVE price, it'd better damn well be made by NEVE. Capice?
Che cosa significa "capice"? Oh, capisco "capisce"!
Hanno fatto un'offerta Γ¨ rifiutata ma non acconsento.
Old 30th May 2014 | Show parent
  #74
Gear Addict
 
NuSkoolTone's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by edwinhurwitz ➑️
Che cosa significa "capice"? Oh, capisco "capisce"!
Hanno fatto un'offerta Γ¨ rifiutata ma non acconsento.
Touche. Italiano no es mi primera lengua, pero ya sabes lo que dije!
Old 31st May 2014 | Show parent
  #75
Lives for gear
 
ddageek's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi ➑️
I would suspect the only reason Jensen were dropped for the Duplex JDI was because of cost. Basic profit motive. In my opinion it was a serious marketing lapse of judgement to retain the JDI name.

If I was in their shoes I would have released it with a totally different name and color at a price point that make it attractive (i.e. if Jensen traffos are really scarce, put the price up and then come out with an alternative). I would not mind if they explained that the new transformers came from the original Jensen designer, or whatever bull**** spin they could put on it.

Clearly people have been mislead - based on reputation which is now tarnished (in my mind at least). To open up a box and find it didn't have what you paid for inside - that is bordering on fraud, and worth of much inferior brand names.

But what is in a brand name these days anyway? I don't trust brand names anymore ... at this to the list.

Radial has stated they switched this product because Jensen could not deliver !
Radial is Jensens biggest customer!

If you want a Jensen based duplex buy 2 of the single channel!
Old 31st May 2014 | Show parent
  #76
Lives for gear
 
ddageek's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by NuSkoolTone ➑️
Actually sometimes YES, I do. I said my concern was more with paying the same price for non-Jensen not that the new transformers wouldn't be of quality.

IMO/IME, the chances of it costing radial the same for in-house transformers (Or even another company without Jensen's cachet that could justify charging as much) is slim to NONE.

I have an issue with what were previously touted as "employs a Jensen audio transformer as the engine" DIs that now have the SAME name and "high-performance 'made in the USA' audio transformers" or "high performance audio transformers". Here I agree with Kiwi wholeheartedly! It's not until you DIG do you discover the transformers are NOT Jensen, and if you buy a "Replacement" it's not truly the "same". Chances are the audible difference is nil to negligible, but when most of us went "Radial" it was because underneath it was JENSEN with some nice extra features and solid build. What's so hard about that to understand?

On a somewhat unrelated note: Upon reviewing the JD6 (With "merge" only on the first two channels) I disagree with Radial's design departure (As this particular application is keyboards and I do not need/want a ProD8) from the JD4 as what I'd really like is a rackmounted Duplex which is what the JD4 is two of. With real Jensen to boot!

The "Real question" is for each individual to make on their own. In my case, it's price vs. performance, expected behavior (and sound), trusted reliable components which I have experience with (In this case I know/trust Jensen), and whether it suits the intended application. The consideration of clients "worrying" that it says "Jensen" or "Neve" on it is secondary to me. However if I'm paying the NEVE price, it'd better damn well be made by NEVE. Capice?

Here's the thing with the quantity of Jensen that radial buys I ll bet their actual cost savings is minimal.

Until you put them next to each other complaint about a perceived differance is ridiculous .
Old 31st May 2014
  #77
Registered User
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
The correct thing to do when demand exceeds supply is to simply raise the price. That restricts the demand, and only those who really care will purchase the premium product. They have cheaper alternatives - that was never the issue. Their own transformers may be just as good - I suspect not, but they have not even tried to convince us (probably not wanting to upset Jensen).

The dumbest thing to do is bait and switch. It's not just me: you can see that people have been deceived. Sure - the lawyers can argue that they posted information about the change before they shipped - blah, blah, blah, woof, woof, woof.

Let the buyer beware. Brand names and reputations are just toys for accountants to play with these days.

I'm not angry. Just making sure you guys don't get tricked.
Old 31st May 2014 | Show parent
  #78
Gear Addict
 
shreddinator's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
For a guy that's not angry you sure seem to head-butt walls a lot, lol. I just bought a JD7. It's still got Jensens though.
Old 31st May 2014 | Show parent
  #79
Lives for gear
 
travisbrown's Avatar
 
9 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
So what you are saying is Peter Janis is a liar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi ➑️
I would suspect the only reason Jensen were dropped for the Duplex JDI was because of cost. Basic profit motive. In my opinion it was a serious marketing lapse of judgement to retain the JDI name.

If I was in their shoes I would have released it with a totally different name and color at a price point that make it attractive (i.e. if Jensen traffos are really scarce, put the price up and then come out with an alternative). I would not mind if they explained that the new transformers came from the original Jensen designer, or whatever bull**** spin they could put on it.

Clearly people have been mislead - based on reputation which is now tarnished (in my mind at least). To open up a box and find it didn't have what you paid for inside - that is bordering on fraud, and worth of much inferior brand names.

But what is in a brand name these days anyway? I don't trust brand names anymore ... at this to the list.
Old 31st May 2014 | Show parent
  #80
Lives for gear
 
travisbrown's Avatar
 
9 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi ➑️
The correct thing to do when demand exceeds supply is to simply raise the price. That restricts the demand, and only those who really care will purchase the premium product.
It's like a reductionist lesson in microeconomics from Adam Smith's slow half-brother Walter.

Absolutely the wrong thing to do. The supply shortage is limited from Jensen to Radial, so with your Iron Law (fitting for transformers), Jensen has to raise its price and increase the end price for all its OEM placements in order to slow demand. However, to the OEMs, there is no *actual* shortage because there is a alternative supply of comparable components that allows them to maintain the natural balance of supply and demand. To fail to take advantage of this supply, or to falsely perpetuate that there is no remedial supply, would be to propagate a false and fraudulent economy in which the end consumer is the maleficiary. It is essentially price fixing at worst, negligent at best.

You are advocating a breach of economic ethics. For shame.
Old 31st May 2014 | Show parent
  #81
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
No problem with the switch here. But I'll be hanging onto my vintage JDI Duplex. Have a feeling its value will soon be increasing exponentially...
Old 31st May 2014
  #82
Lives for gear
 
Meriphew's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I have a JD6 and a couple of JDI's. Great units. I don't see Radial as being deceptive because they changed transformer companies.
Old 31st May 2014 | Show parent
  #83
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
I had to know...
Don't drop the screws Brothas.
Attached Thumbnails
Radial stops using Jensen transformer in JDI duplex?-jensen-check.jpg  
Old 1st June 2014 | Show parent
  #84
Registered User
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by travisbrown ➑️
It's like a reductionist lesson in microeconomics from Adam Smith's slow half-brother Walter.

Absolutely the wrong thing to do. The supply shortage is limited from Jensen to Radial, so with your Iron Law (fitting for transformers), Jensen has to raise its price and increase the end price for all its OEM placements in order to slow demand. However, to the OEMs, there is no *actual* shortage because there is a alternative supply of comparable components that allows them to maintain the natural balance of supply and demand. To fail to take advantage of this supply, or to falsely perpetuate that there is no remedial supply, would be to propagate a false and fraudulent economy in which the end consumer is the maleficiary. It is essentially price fixing at worst, negligent at best.

You are advocating a breach of economic ethics. For shame.
I'm surprised you don't get it.

You could be right - maybe there is no real shortage of Jensen trannies. But if that is the case, it's not me who is suggesting they are lying ...

The "J" stands for Jensen Equipped. The benefits of Jensen transformers have been hyped for years. I have 4 x JDI single channel boxes, and have thought about buying a JDI Duplex for stereo output machines. But obviously I will never do that now, because I won't be getting the same Jensen trannies.

As much as I frequent places like this and try to keep up, I can't always keep up. I'm sure there are many people who don't keep up as much as I do - I'm nothing special but I do waste a lot of time trying to keep my ears to ground. So not all of us check every last detail before buying a product that used to have a solid reputation.

I was annoyed to hear that people had bought JDI Duplex and then discovered they didn't contain Jensen. I'm not saying that Radial broke the law or anything - and it is definately a case of let the buyer beware. Those dumb asses had it coming to them, right?

I'm just saying it was have been *nice* if they had dropped the JDI name, because now the "J" means nothing.

I don't really care - I've got 4 x JDI and that will do me for a while.

I don't think Radial could have bought so much bad publicity with this dumb move, is all.

They have dropped in my estimation - I have several other of their products, and I won't be singing their praises even though I still rate them.

Just beware, that is all. It's more of a rant about the corruption of brand names more than anything else.
Old 1st June 2014 | Show parent
  #85
Lives for gear
 
travisbrown's Avatar
 
9 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi ➑️
I'm surprised you don't get it.

You could be right - maybe there is no real shortage of Jensen trannies. But if that is the case, it's not me who is suggesting they are lying ...
I didn't say there wasn't a shortage of Jensen trannies. They found another supplier which could build the same transformers to spec. They circumvented the shortage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi ➑️
The "J" stands for Jensen Equipped. The benefits of Jensen transformers have been hyped for years. I have 4 x JDI single channel boxes, and have thought about buying a JDI Duplex for stereo output machines. But obviously I will never do that now, because I won't be getting the same Jensen trannies.
Doesn't stand for Jensen any more. Unfortunate disruption in supply chain. However, if the replacement component performs within spec, it is still effectively the same product and doesn't necessarily warrant a name change. If they were doing a reboot of the product or changing the operating specs, maybe; however; it is only artificially differentiated.

So what if there was some minor overlap in the chassis screening - it doesn't amount to fraud or assholedom you've heavy-handedly accused them of. They remarked their chassis to reflect the change. Go back and read Peter Janis' explanation above. He's forthright, reasonable, and at no point is there any reason to think he was trying to pull the wool over your eyes. Radial took the measures needed to deliver continuity of product.

Is it Jensen or nothing for you? Or are you more concerned with getting the job done? I just think it's funny that you write you "obviously" wouldn't be buying a duplex unit now because they don't have Jensens. Would you consider buying another duplex DI from another manufacturer that had the exact same features with transformers that were just as solid as and indistinguishable from Jensens? Just as long as it wasn't stamped JDI by Radial?
Old 1st June 2014 | Show parent
  #86
Lives for gear
 
Arthur Stone's Avatar
 
90 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Maybe 'PDI' would have been a more fitting name.
Old 1st June 2014
  #87
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
I have no bias either way but no matter what they tell you, they will NOT be the same. Only Jensen has their patent/process on making their transformers. Period.

The new transformers will be different, good or bad...

Meeting the same spec tells you nothing. Most modern high quality transformers will most likely meet the same spec. Unfortunately that tells you nothing about how they sound.
Old 1st June 2014 | Show parent
  #88
Lives for gear
 
Plush's Avatar
 
5 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
As far as Radial is concerned, if it does not contain a Jensen, then it is not purchased.
Old 1st June 2014 | Show parent
  #89
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagelove ➑️
I have no bias either way but no matter what they tell you, they will NOT be the same. Only Jensen has their patent/process on making their transformers. Period.

The new transformers will be different, good or bad...

Meeting the same spec tells you nothing. Most modern high quality transformers will most likely meet the same spec. Unfortunately that tells you nothing about how they sound.
True. +1

The ProDI line makes sense, as the customer has a choice to get a Radial product at a lower cost, but the transformer is sold as ;
"High performance custom-wound transformers eliminates noise".
But it is not a Jensen.

I think a better marketing decision could have been made to deal with the Jensen supplier issue.
Come out with the EDI series, featuring the sought after Eclipse transformer.
The JDI becomes the premium, featuring the Jensen...at a higher cost, and possibly a 2 week lead time.

Give customers a choice between the ProDI, EDI, and the JDI.

Just one man's opinion.
Old 1st June 2014 | Show parent
  #90
Lives for gear
 
travisbrown's Avatar
 
9 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagelove ➑️
I have no bias either way but no matter what they tell you, they will NOT be the same. Only Jensen has their patent/process on making their transformers. Period.

The new transformers will be different, good or bad...

Meeting the same spec tells you nothing. Most modern high quality transformers will most likely meet the same spec. Unfortunately that tells you nothing about how they sound.
How a transformer sounds, like guitar pickups, comes down exactly to configuration and composition, nothing else. There is no unicorn at the end of the assembly line dripping rainbow tears on them.

Everything in a transformer is measurable to degrees that exceed any practical tolerance. There is no magic. This is how Jensen QA confirms their transformers are in spec, and how anyone else could set a spec. Maybe you are thinking about the marketing spec sheets you see with gear. These are merely summaries of what detailed engineering spec that can outline build process, finer requirements and targets, configuration data.

Perhaps the Eclipse are built with a different process; however, that doesn't at all preclude a different result. The patent is on the process; Jensen doesn't own the performance. There is one way to skin a cat, and a 100 other ways too.

It's true I haven't directly compared the Eclipse with a Jensen, but it is by no means impossible to produce a transformer that performs equally and indistingushably and I have no meaningful grounds to dispute that it necessarily performed differently. Cinemag did just fine with API. Even API did fine with API.

I guess that's how you do it. If you can't distinguish in a listening or metrical A/B, your fears are allayed and all is right in the world. It is qualitatively and quantitatively the same product.
πŸ“ Reply

Similar Threads

Thread / Thread Starter Replies / Views Last Post
replies: 104 views: 28926
Avatar for Zoot
Zoot 12th September 2019
replies: 40 views: 3729
Avatar for CJ1973
CJ1973 28th December 2007
replies: 8 views: 3846
Avatar for Apemandan
Apemandan 18th March 2008
replies: 2 views: 2961
Avatar for Janesaid2me
Janesaid2me 14th June 2013
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearspace Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…

Forum Jump
Forum Jump