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Radial stops using Jensen transformer in JDI duplex?
Old 17th August 2013 | Show parent
  #31
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bleen's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi ➑️
This is sad news to hear. Very disappointed - I have 4 older JDI boxes which I understand contain Jensen and I have been a loyal supporter of Radial for making such a high quality product. I hate to hear companies indulging in bait and switch tactics - I find that reprehensible.

JDI was always associated with Jensen, which is why we bought them. Radial has their cheaper "pro" range, and we all knew they were good but NOT Jensen.

Abusing an established brand name seems to be a game that accountants play - but it is VERY short sighted.

The Radial brand is now worthless in my eyes.
Feel free to send me all of your "now worthless" Radial products which I'll happily use alongside all of my other Radial products .heh
Old 18th August 2013 | Show parent
  #32
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi ➑️
The Radial brand is now worthless in my eyes.
Because the NAME on an internal component is more important than how it performs?

Old 18th August 2013
  #33
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🎧 5 years
Maybe a shootout is in order?

As a builder who uses and loves Jensen, I'm always curious to explore other transformer builders and continue to re-evaluate options.
Old 18th August 2013
  #34
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
And since what's on the label doesn't seem to correspond reliably to what's inside, that should make a fair A/B test simple
Old 18th August 2013 | Show parent
  #35
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabies ➑️
And since what's on the label doesn't seem to correspond reliably to what's inside, that should make a fair A/B test simple
Do the new ones say "Jensen" ?
Old 18th August 2013
  #36
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddageek ➑️
Do the new ones say "Jensen" ?
As I wrote above, mine is a new JDI (single-channel) and it does not say Jensen on the housing, although it still contains a Jensen transformer. I guess Radial is trying to phase out the branding association, although their website for the JDI still says Jensen.
Old 18th August 2013 | Show parent
  #37
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1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabies ➑️
Because the NAME on an internal component is more important than how it performs?

It's the principle of the thing. Once a company's morals get corrupted and they think it's ok to cheat, it's all downhill from there. From the information above it appears they have been caught red handed in what amounts to fraud.

In my country there are laws against that.

In the future, if I want a Jensen transformer I will approach a Jensen agent.
Old 22nd August 2013
  #38
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
The man himself came on here and discussed it. How is it fraud?
Old 23rd August 2013
  #39
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I have 3 different radial boxes , and I will say the quality of sound is excellent as well as the heavy tank like build . 3 thumbs up for them !
Old 23rd August 2013 | Show parent
  #40
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🎧 15 years
Many Pro shops build DI Boxes WITH Jensen's, including Me...
They are the BEST and Most $$...
Old 23rd August 2013 | Show parent
  #41
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vintageidiot ➑️
That would seem to make sense, but saying Jensen could not keep up seems odd.
Radial are not the only manufacturer that Jensen cannot keep up with, I know more than one that literally have to stop production while they wait on transformers.

After a while I can see that being a huge problem.

War
Old 23rd August 2013 | Show parent
  #42
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by warhead ➑️
Radial are not the only manufacturer that Jensen cannot keep up with, I know more than one that literally have to stop production while they wait on transformers.

After a while I can see that being a huge problem.

War
Yep, Over the years I remember waiting on many a product because of Jensen Transformers. The folks at Jensen have always made great transformers, but their output is limited. Jensen isn't the only one who can make a great Transformer, it would make sence to wait and here what Radials own transformers sound like, they have been building around transformers for years so I suspect they know what sounds good!
Old 23rd August 2013 | Show parent
  #43
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🎧 15 years
Yes, and even Peter Janis from Radial is in this thread stating it is their wish to use Jensen transformers forever. Good people like Peter and the folks at Jensen are merely doing their best here, not trying to ruin anybody's life. The good news is there are many other fine transformer companies out there, and Radial seems to continue to offer Jensen in other products (like the single channel JDI).

Anybody wanting a stereo Jensen pair of Radial could just as easily buy 2 JDI units although I know it's not exactly the same. For standard use though, it is.

War
Old 31st August 2013
  #44
Me2
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1 Review written
🎧 10 years
I do think it's a big issue. For years Radial JDI has been associated with the Jensen transformer brand, and a certain premium quality level. If they wanted to switch to Eclipse they should have come up with "EDI" IMHO. I find it misleading, and I certainly don't want to have to read 20 pages of small print to find out that an essential component has been switched out. My 0.02c worth.
Old 31st August 2013 | Show parent
  #45
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18 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Me2 ➑️
I do think it's a big issue. For years Radial JDI has been associated with the Jensen transformer brand, and a certain premium quality level. If they wanted to switch to Eclipse they should have come up with "EDI" IMHO. I find it misleading, and I certainly don't want to have to read 20 pages of small print to find out that an essential component has been switched out. My 0.02c worth.
correction, "THE" important component

Jensen certainly does have a cachet among transformer brands.
Old 31st August 2013 | Show parent
  #46
Me2
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1 Review written
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyxx ➑️
correction, "THE" important component

Jensen certainly does have a cachet among transformer brands.
I don't disagree with you. I was being generous.

As the original poster pointed out, the product picture on many sites selling this product as of 31 August 2013 still use a picture that clearly contains the text "Mk4" and "Jensen Equipped Direct Box". The new one on the Radial site is also "Mk 4" and is labelled "Transformer isolated". They could have at the very least made this "Mk 5" to trigger people into querying the difference.
Old 31st August 2013 | Show parent
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Me2 ➑️
I don't disagree with you. I was being generous.

As the original poster pointed out, the product picture on many sites selling this product as of 31 August 2013 still use a picture that clearly contains the text "Mk4" and "Jensen Equipped Direct Box". The new one on the Radial site is also "Mk 4" and is labelled "Transformer isolated". They could have at the very least made this "Mk 5" to trigger people into querying the difference.
Yeaus...It certainly does seem like they're aiming for a surreptitious and quiet transformation... Lucky for them the secret component is visually hidden, in effect. It makes sense, business wise. Smart moving, Radial.

In the words of Obi Wan Kanobe, "Move along, move along, nothing to see here."
Old 1st September 2013 | Show parent
  #48
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u b k's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Me2 ➑️
As the original poster pointed out, the product picture on many sites selling this product as of 31 August 2013 still use a picture that clearly contains the text "Mk4" and "Jensen Equipped Direct Box".

For whatever it's worth, I can attest to the fact that manufacturers have no control over what images and info dealers put on their sites. We still have dealers displaying Gain Trains even though we asked them to pull those down over 6 months ago.

It seems here that there's a strong inclination to expect/believe that Radial's Eclipse trafo's are somehow 'less than' Jensen's, a groundless assumption used to explain an imagined story as to why they were low key about the change. Assumptions explaining stories... this way of thinking is a reactive mind trap, and it impedes the ability to get at the truth because of the emotional charge around it. Skepticism is healthy and productive; mistrust is not.

My own inclination is to keep trusting those that have earned my trust and, in the absence of information, to not jump to conclusions but rather to simply ask honest questions. My guess is if Radial uses a component, it is by definition up to Radial's standards because they strike me as one of the least 'corner cutting' companies I know of.


Gregory Scott - ubk
Old 1st September 2013
  #49
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I for one ain't assuming that, I've got big respect for Radial. I just don't guess they would want a big public spotlight on this change because, well you know how people are. I bet a lot of people won't care, though, and shouldn't. They've already laid it all out in this thread, even. Maybe Radial is assuming the same thing...they know what they are doing and people should trust their expertise. I'd like to hear from someone who gets their hands on the new version, to maybe lay some of the speculation and fear to rest. There's a lot of threads on this website where people get blown out of whack about something they've never even seen or heard yet...I don't read them. I don't think this thread has gone that far, though.

Also I have always assumed that the $250 I spent on my used JDI duplex was a lot...then I just realized the Jensen transformers are worth close to $100 each, alone, so, feels almost like a deal now. What a great box, I would recommend it to anyone. I am starting to learn the Jensen "sound." Hardy style preamps will be my next step in this direction.

On a side note I really want to hear Cinemag's DI transformers...big fan of that company, I am. I will be experimenting with Edcor units as well in some reamps. I'm a little bit of a transformer geek.
Old 1st September 2013
  #50
Registered User
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
There is a basic principle of "perception" of honesty at stake here.

I have no problem at all with a company like Radial having a supply problem with a company like Jensen and having to use alternative transformers.

The problem I have is in using the brand identity they have established with the JDI. I have 4 JDI boxes, bought because they contain Jensen transformers. I have wanted to get a JDI Duplex or two for my keyboards and stuff where it is a bit untidy to use two DI boxes. I have always assumed that if I did so, that they would contain the same Jensen transformers.

Radial make plenty of products that don't contain Jensen, and you know exactly what you are getting. For live use I have a Radial ProD8 and it's a great product. But it's not Jensen, and I never assumed it was. That is the kind of transparent honesty I expect.

SO - given that Radial are completely capable of selling boxes with non-Jensen transformers, WHY did they choose to remove Jensen from the JDI range and exploit the brand loyalty that was obtained because of the Jensen transformers.

Why didn't they just make a ProDuplex or something that was not so misleading?

Seems fairly obvious that they thought they could get away with it and we would still pay the higher price associated with the JDI branding.

The same thing has happened with other brand names before. Nike use to make good shoes that runners rated. They they realised they could slap the Nike name of cheap chinese sweatshop shoes and charge the same dollars. If fell for it once, but never twice.
Old 5th January 2014 | Show parent
  #51
Gear Maniac
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Just about to buy now on a Duplex when I found this thread. Radial lost my business, now and going forward. That they would choose to radically alter 'the' fundamental component of one of their key products is one thing; that they would not demand transparency by declaring this important change in a press release is unacceptable. Operating in this way, without transparency, reeks of sleaze, double cheese, dishonesty and the ruinous manifestation of corporate greed.

Later Radial, here's your hat, what's your hurry...
Old 5th January 2014 | Show parent
  #52
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by InsideTrip ➑️
Operating in this way, without transparency, reeks of sleaze, double cheese, dishonesty and the ruinous manifestation of corporate greed.
Or you could just quietly purchase the DI of your choice.

If you ever met any of the great people at Radial, you'd know this is a ludicrous thing to say. They are audio nerds making awesome gear for audio nerds. If you don't like their gear or, more specifically, changes they make to their products just don't buy it.

Radial has been open about this change. If they say they sound the same, I believe it. But don't take anyone's word for it! I encourage you to buy an old one and a new one and do some comparison testing for us to prove this is all worth the rant.
Old 5th January 2014 | Show parent
  #53
Lives for gear
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by InsideTrip ➑️
Just about to buy now on a Duplex when I found this thread. Radial lost my business, now and going forward. That they would choose to radically alter 'the' fundamental component of one of their key products is one thing; that they would not demand transparency by declaring this important change in a press release is unacceptable. Operating in this way, without transparency, reeks of sleaze, double cheese, dishonesty and the ruinous manifestation of corporate greed.

Later Radial, here's your hat, what's your hurry...
How do you know they are operating in the way you suggest? Have you heard the new transformer? It could sound as good, or maybe even better, than the Jensen. What you are doing seems akin to appealing to religion over science. Sure, maybe having Jensens gives you some sort of bragging rights, but at the end of the day, I doubt you are going to lose a job or someone is going to tell you your mixes suck because you have a Radial box with an Eclipse rather than a Jensen. In fact, I would guess that most clients wouldn't know the difference and if they know anything, they are going to be reassured that you are using Radial over some crappy prosumer box.
Old 5th January 2014 | Show parent
  #54
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2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyxx ➑️

On a side note I really want to hear Cinemag's DI transformers...big fan of that company, I am. I will be experimenting with Edcor units as well in some reamps. I'm a little bit of a transformer geek.

Interestingly, Cinemag DI transformers are an evolution of the Reichenbachs. Reichenbach was the original design source of the Jensen. So, they are probably not hugely different. I have a quad of Reichenbach RE-DB-E transformers I got 20 years ago and they sound great in a simple DI box I built.


Here's a comment on the companies from groupdiy.com:

"re: jensen vs. reichenbach/bauer vs. cinemag

here is what i know about the relationship between these three companies.

ed reichenbach designed some transformers that were made for jensen. at the same time, jimmy bauer also worked for jensen. at some point the relationship between deane jensen and mr. bauer soured, and reichenbach no longer provided transformers to jensen. bauer has continued to sell reichenbach's designs under the reichenbach/bauer name. jensen has made changes to the designs so that the current jensen transformers are different from what reichenbach sells.

tom reichenbach is ed reichenbach's son. he worked with his father for a time, but split off many years ago to form his own company, cinemag. the cinemag transformers are not related in any way to the jensen reichenbach designs. however, cinemag does have the files for most of ed reichenbach's older designs, from when he worked for quad eight, urei, etc.

the breakup of reichenbach and jensen was apparently a very acrimonious split. bill whitlock has commented on it on rec.audio.pro."
Old 5th January 2014
  #55
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
It's a bit interesting how Jensen cannot keep up with the demand despite over 40 years in the business. I would have thought their manufacturing chain and process would be more streamlined then anyones. Does this also mean that since Radial is making their own transformers, and is/was also Jensen's largest customer, that the supply of Jensen transformers will now be radically easier to get ahold of?
Old 5th January 2014
  #56
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18 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
The JDI is still using Jensen.

It is only the JDI Duplex that's gone secret-transformer mode.
Old 23rd March 2014
  #57
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
A Passive DI box has just one resistor and the transformer in the audio path so the transformer is important. Jensen lists the companies that use there transformers here.
JENSEN TRANSFORMERS, INC. - CLIENT LISTING
Radial is one of them and they build a good box.
I like the LBP box but then I should, I build them. (Grin) LBPINC :: DI
Old 23rd March 2014 | Show parent
  #58
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🎧 15 years
Ive been using a Radial JDV, and other products of theres for years and have great respect for the company. They have been and still are a great company, and I can't imagine them doing anything but building great products regardless of weather they use Jensen or there own transformers.
Old 24th March 2014 | Show parent
  #59
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by edwinhurwitz ➑️
Interestingly, Cinemag DI transformers are an evolution of the Reichenbachs.
Very true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by edwinhurwitz ➑️
Reichenbach was the original design source of the Jensen. So, they are probably not hugely different.
Lets reword that slightly, Reichenbach was the original source of the Jensen. Deane sold Ed's transformers, yes, design and manufacture, from his apartment on Fuller Avenue in Hollywood, 1617 Fuller Avenue, Hollywood 90046 to be exact. Jensen Transformers was the desk on the left side of Deane's hallway entrance.
After Deane's tragic demise in 1989 there was a flurry of litigation which we will not discuss here. It has been said that Mr. Bauer's transformers are very close to Ed's original designs. Mr. Hogan claims to have redesigned the Jensen transformer lineup, thus interesting when discussing Jensens', which Jensen?
The Sound Steward
In summary, why the fuss ? There are MANY DI transformers that sound great. Big records were done with UTC's. If Radial is sourcing their transformers from Hammond or whomever, guess what, they might be even better than before.
Old 24th March 2014 | Show parent
  #60
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2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by cathode ➑️
Very true.


In summary, why the fuss ? There are MANY DI transformers that sound great. Big records were done with UTC's. If Radial is sourcing their transformers from Hammond or whomever, guess what, they might be even better than before.
I've heard great things about the UTC transformers. I'd love to try a DI for bass using one.
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