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Kip Winger's Techniques Concerning bass
Old 21st September 2012
  #1
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ejbragg's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Kip Winger's Techniques Concerning bass

Guys/Gals,
Is anyone familiar with Winger's first album Winger? I admittedly did not purchase any of their following albums, so I don't know if that sound carried on, but... I have always been amazed about the bass response in that album. It may have been psychoacoustic extension, I don't know, but I have never since heard bass notes so tight, deep, full, and yet transparent to the rest of the music. Nothing I've heard since captures that same fullness. Didn't Kip Winger mix his own albums? Anyone know how he accomplished this feat?
Old 21st September 2012
  #2
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mr. torture's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Very well mixed album. The song Seventeen has probably one of the coolest guitar riffs ever written. Maybe research the engineers of that album?

Produced and engineered by Beau Hill
Assistant Engineers: Noah Baron, Jimmy Hoyson
Technicians: Bob Schwall, Bob Caputo
Digital Editing: Stephen Benben
Recorded and mixed at Atlantic Studios, NYC
Mastered at Sterling Sound, NYC by Ted Jensen
Old 21st September 2012
  #3
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DJCSUN's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
"In The Heart Of The Young" has some of that going on as well, very big low end. Pretty great sounding records, and musicianship!
Old 21st September 2012 | Show parent
  #4
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. torture ➑️
Very well mixed album. The song Seventeen has probably one of the coolest guitar riffs ever written. Maybe research the engineers of that album?

Produced and engineered by Beau Hill
Assistant Engineers: Noah Baron, Jimmy Hoyson
Technicians: Bob Schwall, Bob Caputo
Digital Editing: Stephen Benben
Recorded and mixed at Atlantic Studios, NYC
Mastered at Sterling Sound, NYC by Ted Jensen
Thanks for that info. My mistake. I need to be looking up techniques used by either Beau Hill or Ted Jensen, so it seems.... and I wonder if my aim should be more specifically toward Ted, in this case? I'm having a bit of trouble finding any usable information. I'm sure if it's a specific trade secret, they may not want to part with it. But I'd be fine with speculations, as well, if anybody has one .... or two....
Old 21st September 2012
  #5
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poopynuggeteer's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Not sure but I will say I love those first 2 albums! Great musicians and awesome sounding records.
Old 21st September 2012
  #6
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🎧 5 years
As far as speculations go I heard kip did nothing but high kicks while tracking bass. Maybe this is why.
Old 21st September 2012 | Show parent
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poopynuggeteer ➑️
As far as speculations go I heard kip did nothing but high kicks while tracking bass. Maybe this is why.
? In that case, the bass tracks must have either been replaced or an octaver must have been inserted somewhere along the way.
Old 22nd September 2012
  #8
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Adam Dempsey's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
fwiw some of the best electric bass recordings I've heard have been captured via small amp rigs (whether blended or not with a DI'd and phase-aligned signal). Just this week I had that re-affirmed by a great bass player/engineer friend.

Similarly, some of the best live bass sounds I've heard at small-medium sized gigs have been straight off an Ampeg 8 x 10" "fridge", via a decent amp head, great player and nothing else - no PA, DI or anything.

As with most such things, it's all in the source.
Old 22nd September 2012 | Show parent
  #9
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TurboJets's Avatar
 
3 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Dempsey ➑️
fwiw some of the best electric bass recordings I've heard have been captured via small amp rigs (whether blended or not with a DI'd and phase-aligned signal). Just this week I had that re-affirmed by a great bass player/engineer friend.

Similarly, some of the best live bass sounds I've heard at small-medium sized gigs have been straight off an Ampeg 8 x 10" "fridge", via a decent amp head, great player and nothing else - no PA, DI or anything.

As with most such things, it's all in the source.

A great cab indeed.

I also played with a bassist in the 90's that used an SWR Henry 8x8 that had amazing tone. I think they were called SWR at that time. The head was an Acoustic bass head. Awesome bassist, incredible tone.
Old 22nd September 2012
  #10
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
In general I think the SWR cabs are great, Henry the 8x8 is a great cab much better than the 6x10 they made. I will also vouch for the Acoustic heads, amazing tone and functions. Inductor EQs! The best bass tone I have come across myself is splitting the signal to my Sunn 1200s for low end and then into the Acoustic 470 for mids and using overdriven etc.
Old 22nd September 2012 | Show parent
  #11
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AllAboutTone's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. torture ➑️
Very well mixed album. The song Seventeen has probably one of the coolest guitar riffs ever written. Maybe research the engineers of that album?

Produced and engineered by Beau Hill
Assistant Engineers: Noah Baron, Jimmy Hoyson
Technicians: Bob Schwall, Bob Caputo
Digital Editing: Stephen Benben
Recorded and mixed at Atlantic Studios, NYC
Mastered at Sterling Sound, NYC by Ted Jensen
The magic Reb Beach.....

I saw Winger in a small club when they were big, they sound better than the CD. Good friend with the drummer Rob.
Can you believe Kip was a member of Alice Cooper ?
Old 22nd September 2012 | Show parent
  #12
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Webb's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllAboutTone ➑️

Good friend with the drummer Rob.
Isn't the drummer's name Rod???
Old 22nd September 2012 | Show parent
  #13
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Webb ➑️
Isn't the drummer's name Rod???
Yea I do need to turn my b around.
Old 22nd September 2012
  #14
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🎧 15 years
Rod only did Winger for the money, here was his true love. This was 10 years after I saw him at the club with Winger, Madalaine was the first song they played that night, before that Rod it was the Dregs.

Rod Morgenstein-Dregs Drum Solo - YouTube
Old 22nd September 2012 | Show parent
  #15
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poopynuggeteer's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ejbragg ➑️
? In that case, the bass tracks must have either been replaced or an octaver must have been inserted somewhere along the way.
haha I ment high kicks as in lift your leg up over your head and then do a little twirl
Old 22nd September 2012
  #16
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K. Osborne's Avatar
 
3 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
My goto session bassist once told me that one of his main "tricks" for getting really solid bass tones is to play primarily on the bottom two strings, but play higher on the neck. He's always saying "save the low notes for only when they're needed," e.g., downbeat of the chorus, last note of the song, whatever. He also plays with his thumb or the fleshy part of his fingers, so his attacks are super soft which of course means his sustain is awesome, and since he plays quieter he's ridiculously even - barely needs any compression. Rarely need much compression. He cranks his amp but just plays nice and light. The richness is hard to deny.
Old 22nd September 2012
  #17
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Barish's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
A very close friend of mine here in Istanbul collaborated with him in a few projects, including his own album and Winger's comeback album a few years back. I've never met him as I was not in town when he was in but I've seen the footage and heard the recordings at my friend's place later on, and as a bassist myself I can easily say that he's just a stunning player. Monstrous. Hangs five and mixes the dough. It would be quite hard to mess a recording up if a player was that skilled. I don't think that gear is so important there. Give him a $199 Crimbo gift pack bass and an amp from a guitar shop and he'll still sound huge.

And my God, what a voice he has. Crazy range. He could outsing any guy in the business even after three days of benders. I am ashamed to say that I have a tenor voice next to his. He has something like half an octave over me effortlessly, and I can sing high B, C not so bad, so there.

P.S. "Pull" was a very good album to my hearing. Sadly it went amiss among that grunge foray of the mid 90s, and all that Metallica Nothing Matters video and Beavis & Butthead crap.
Old 22nd September 2012
  #18
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Protools Guy's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
He's a freakin' musical genius. If you haven't heard his symphony compositions, do yourself a favor. You'll be blown away. He continues to write and record Winger and solo albums and they're all great. He's a top shelf engineer/producer.

I have no idea what he played through in the studio, but live, he's been playing through an SVT.
Old 22nd September 2012
  #19
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🎧 10 years
Yeah, thanks to that kid from Beavis and Butthead, Winger probably sold 1/3 of the albums they could have.

I bet Kip loves Mike Judge. Lol

JROD
Old 23rd September 2012 | Show parent
  #20
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2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by poopynuggeteer ➑️
haha I ment high kicks as in lift your leg up over your head and then do a little twirl
oops! Ha!

Quote:
Originally Posted by K. Osborne ➑️
My goto session bassist once told me that one of his main "tricks" for getting really solid bass tones is to play primarily on the bottom two strings, but play higher on the neck. He's always saying "save the low notes for only when they're needed," e.g., downbeat of the chorus, last note of the song, whatever. He also plays with his thumb or the fleshy part of his fingers, so his attacks are super soft which of course means his sustain is awesome, and since he plays quieter he's ridiculously even - barely needs any compression. Rarely need much compression. He cranks his amp but just plays nice and light. The richness is hard to deny.
Well, that helps explain the technique, but what's got me baffled is that the low end of that album sounds almost as though some type of synth was used. Those notes have such an incredible bandwidth. Between my ears and my brain, I can't figure out how the tone can be so incredibly low, and seems to fill some of the upper frequencies, as well. It's like a subsonic shock that you can hear on not-so-hi-fi speakers. I'm going to (ignorantly) suggest that there must be more here than just an awesome bass player and excellent bass amp.
Old 24th September 2012
  #21
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popmann's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Kip was a session and touring bassist for years. A) nice guy. B) it's about being a good bass player...and knowing how to get the sound.

Beau did fab mixes in the day...but, did you hear the same "bass sound" you liked on RATT?

But, FWIW...he did use a Peavey MIDI Bass for some amount of work in the era. And Beau was a keyboard player who was all about layering synths way down under heavy guitars.

Winger was actually one of the best bands of the era/scene...despite the bull**** dancing and posing in videos and the Mike Judge joking. Reb is amazing. Kip is an amazing player and a good singer (albeit not really my tonal cup o tea). Rod is such an amazing drummer it's not funny. That was a band of veteran session guys playing pop, not unlike Toto a decade before.

I haven't listened in years...I heard their "comeback" some years back...bought the download...never really did it for me. But, their trio of records 89-92'ish are a benchmark of "what hard prog pop can sound like", IMO.

Also note--the first album you mentioned is mastered EASILY 8db RMS quieter than "rock" today. That is not a small reason for bass tone. Bass eats headroom for lunch...in order to get rock records to today's levels, it needs to be gutted, allowing the sheer volume to move the woofers rather than the attack of the bass guitar and kick.

Nuff said? Are you mixing a great bass player who knows his tone well? I'll dig up the CDs next time I'm listening...I think the MIDI bass came into use on the third record, if memory serves.
Old 24th September 2012
  #22
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
A Winger love thread is without question one of the signs of the Gearslutz apocalypse...

1st was Slipperman leaving

2nd is the Winger appreciation thread

If it starts raining frogs...

(good musicians, fine, but those records SUCKED... some of the worst crap ever recorded.)
Old 24th September 2012 | Show parent
  #23
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Schattenmann's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emwolb ➑️
A Winger love thread is without question one of the signs of the Gearslutz apocalypse...

(good musicians, fine, but those records SUCKED... some of the worst crap ever recorded.)
I bet you enjoyed that Metallica video, didn't you?
Old 24th September 2012
  #24
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logicll's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I fully appreciate TOP professionals working in a million dollar studio! Things these days are quite "hacky" compared to this..
Old 25th September 2012 | Show parent
  #25
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ejbragg's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emwolb ➑️
A Winger love thread is without question one of the signs of the Gearslutz apocalypse...

1st was Slipperman leaving

2nd is the Winger appreciation thread

If it starts raining frogs...

(good musicians, fine, but those records SUCKED... some of the worst crap ever recorded.)
I always love uplifting, intelligent conversation.
Old 25th September 2012 | Show parent
  #26
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Barish's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emwolb ➑️
A Winger love thread is without question one of the signs of the Gearslutz apocalypse...

1st was Slipperman leaving

2nd is the Winger appreciation thread

If it starts raining frogs...

(good musicians, fine, but those records SUCKED... some of the worst crap ever recorded.)
Why? I appreciate a talent when I see it. And Kip had it all.

I couldn't give a flying feck what some caricateurist -or you- thought about him.

I've learned how to make my own judgements about appreciating talent/skill/gift regardless of the repertoire in hand a while ago... and the hard way. (Yeah, they once put me on stage next to someone I had slagged off remotely...)

Your mileage as usual, may vary.
Old 25th September 2012 | Show parent
  #27
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mr. torture's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emwolb ➑️
A Winger love thread is without question one of the signs of the Gearslutz apocalypse...

1st was Slipperman leaving

2nd is the Winger appreciation thread

If it starts raining frogs...

(good musicians, fine, but those records SUCKED... some of the worst crap ever recorded.)
I never cared for Slipperman, always struck me as a pompous ass.

Winger had some cool tunes, to each their own I guess.
Old 25th September 2012 | Show parent
  #28
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Dysanfel's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emwolb ➑️
those records SUCKED... some of the worst crap ever recorded.)
I have to agree with Beavis and Butthead. Thank god Seattle flushed hair metal down the toilet.

However I am wise enough to know that acts as divisive as Winger must hold some merit.
Old 25th September 2012 | Show parent
  #29
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Barish's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. torture ➑️
I never cared for Slipperman, always struck me as a pompous ass.

Winger had some cool tunes, to each their own I guess.
Slipperman is a living legend. Period.
Old 25th September 2012 | Show parent
  #30
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Faderjockey's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barish ➑️
Slipperman is a living legend. Period.
And him being pompous was part of his humor.. Funny part is guys don't get people like that.. You can listen to his podcast and Mixerman's podcast..
Slippy may be long winded at times (I can be as well) but if you listen to him.. You can tell his a smart dude. He's Jersey so he's loud but he's smart and funny.. I hate that you can't type curse words here.. Yuck!
Been here forever..but changing how I speak is hard when typing quickly
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