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Live vocal mics, LOUD DRUMMER!
Old 26th September 2012
  #31
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T.V. Eye's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
@ForgottenG

Yes, I see your point. I guess it´s hard to discuss this topic at all, because it depends so much on the specific situation. I absolutely agree that just being loud is a poor goal. And I can tell you I´m a big fan of dynamic performances, and that is totally possible with loud rock stuff, too.
On the other hand, when the drummer is compared to Travis Barker by the thread opener, and the band is playing punk stuff, it could well be that the drummer an his style is perfect for that kind of music. Blink 182 sure wouldn´t kick Travis Baker out of the band because of playing to heavy...

So, as long as we don´t know if the drummer is just bashing the sh*t out of every song no matter if it suites the song and the performance, or if it´s just that he´s loud because the music and the band needs it that way, it´s really hard to judge where the problem is.
Old 26th September 2012 | Show parent
  #32
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1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Overall, the OP has gotten some good suggestions on all sides of this question to try out. If A doesn't work, then try B......
Old 26th September 2012
  #33
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Gilli C's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Is the drummer bashing because of the stage volume of the rest of the band? Is it possible he would tone down if he was also on ears? And does he wear earplugs... come across a few drummers who will wear foamies and then over compensate by smashing the cymbals and then wanting their foldback impossibly loud.

As for microphone suggestion ... Shure KSM9? it has two settings - supercardioid and cardioid.

G
Old 26th September 2012 | Show parent
  #34
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ForgottenG's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by T.V. Eye ➡️
@ForgottenG

Yes, I see your point. I guess it´s hard to discuss this topic at all, because it depends so much on the specific situation. I absolutely agree that just being loud is a poor goal. And I can tell you I´m a big fan of dynamic performances, and that is totally possible with loud rock stuff, too.
On the other hand, when the drummer is compared to Travis Barker by the thread opener, and the band is playing punk stuff, it could well be that the drummer an his style is perfect for that kind of music. Blink 182 sure wouldn´t kick Travis Baker out of the band because of playing to heavy...

So, as long as we don´t know if the drummer is just bashing the sh*t out of every song no matter if it suites the song and the performance, or if it´s just that he´s loud because the music and the band needs it that way, it´s really hard to judge where the problem is.
Well said my friend.
Old 26th September 2012
  #35
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🎧 10 years
Guitar players and bass players can be made to turn down, but a band's stage volume is dictated by the drummer. If he can't play at a lower level, the band is screwed.

If you don't want to use drum shields OR the drummer can't learn to actually play with more dynamics, then you'll just have to live with your vocal mics as drum overheads. While some mics have a tighter pattern, it's much more related to gain before feedback in monitors than picking up cymbal wash.

So crank down those low pass filters to around 10K on the vocal channels (assuming you have parametric EQ) and live with the fact that you just freed up some mic inputs since you no longer need overheads (not that you do in most bars/clubs anyway)...
Old 18th October 2012 | Show parent
  #36
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tathnos's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Someone mentioned the Neumann vocal mic. I am assuming the KMS104 or KSM105. That mic, like the KSM9, can sound excellent in many situations, but the problem with both of these mics is they are more prone to feedback and bleed than most dynamics, the Neumann being worse than the Shure in my experience. (I own 3 KSM9s and have used the KMS104/5 on some pretty amazing singers). So for trying to improve rejection, I would lean toward something with a ton of rejection like the Heil PR35.

Threaten to put the drummer on an electronic kit or E cymbals and watch him quiet down. You could also do a live recording with a zoom h4n or something and show them how overwhelming the drums/cymbals are even with the whole band cranked through the PA.
Old 23rd October 2012
  #37
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trompetfreak's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
give the drummer sheet music... ;-)
Old 14th June 2015
  #38
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🎧 5 years
Here's a great, foolproof way of testing how much rejection you can expect from any vocal mic. We did this with a huge range of vocal mics for our drummer and the results translated EXACTLY to a live gig situation. You might like to check out all his other videos too while you're at it!
https://youtu.be/MvUfXxalD7Q
Old 15th June 2015 | Show parent
  #39
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davet's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by donmr ➡️
Here's a great, foolproof way of testing how much rejection you can expect from any vocal mic. We did this with a huge range of vocal mics for our drummer and the results translated EXACTLY to a live gig situation. You might like to check out all his other videos too while you're at it!
https://youtu.be/MvUfXxalD7Q
Interesting technique and test results. This is worth a look.
Old 15th June 2015
  #40
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🎧 15 years
Like one post said:
CHANGING THE VOCAL MIC IS NOT GOING TO HELP.
I have mixed live for 40 years... The trick to clarity is having a well balanced sound system with enough wattage.

I have mixed one band for nearly 30 years now and they are all VERY LOUD players, but I have never had any trouble getting the vocals above the band using an SM58 and another very important item...
That item is a good P.A. rig.
Back in the early days these guys were maybe a bit louder and some of the clubs had crappy, big, but under-powered p.a. systems.
It was harder to pull out the vocals. back in those days because the system often wasn't up to the task.
Once we became established we worked on better sound systems that I hired and I could pull out the vocals easily.
Once the band was signed to a major label I spec'ed the systems and we required the promoter to specify that the system provider adhered to a very detailed rider. Problem solved.

I primarily mix corporate audio these days and I am fortunate to only use only top-of-the-line gear.
However, when I go back to band and club mixing I have to deal with so-so to fairly decent systems.
The trick to getting vocal clarity is having a well balanced p.a. and the knowing how to mix the band to fit the room.

If it's rock...
Rock is loud. Hell... The C&W that I mix is loud!
Most live music is usually dynamic, so it will probably get loud.
The lead singer and the band need to learn how to work together.
Make it work without telling the band how to play... If you want to keep the gig.
Unless they are just awful you should be able to pull the vocals out with an SM58.
There is a reason why almost all p.a. riders from touring acts say "... or an SM58."

Besides... something sounds wrong here.
The vocalist should be able to sing over the drummer's wash if he is as strong as you say he is.
If he isn't then use a light gate.
I wonder if the OP was having an issue because the lead vocalist was hearing cymbal bleed in his IEMs?
That can be an issue, but it goes with the territory... try using a light gate.

The lead vocalist should be in front of the mic (even when not singing) for most of the performance.
That alone should block cymbal bleed unless the lead singer's mic is REALLY close to the kit.
Yeah, I know that vocalists don't stay in front of the mic all the time, but come on...
I am in the middle of mixing the audio portion for a video of the band I have mixed for 30 years,
This is a small 16' x 16' stage and the drummer plays balls out for the entire show (he is a beast of a player.)
I can slightly tell when the lead vocalist moves away from in front of the mic, but it isn't a deal breaker.
In fact, I am using the stage bleed in the BG vocals (GTR and Bass players) for over-all stage ambience.

Last edited by dbbubba; 15th June 2015 at 04:40 PM..
Old 15th June 2015 | Show parent
  #41
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Mertmo's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
+1 for putting the drummer on one side of the stage or the other.

great look too, I'm personally bored with seeing the drummer in the middle behind everyone...
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