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What hardware flanger for mixing?
Old 18th September 2012
  #1
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🎧 10 years
What hardware flanger for mixing?

If I'm wanting to make some very psychedelic mixes, more 60s and 70s inspired stuff, and I want a hardware unit that I can feed different elements or even the whole mix to, and I'm wanting it to be able to do everything from through zero flanging to straight up sound barrier jet engine wooshing, and I don't want it to sound too digital and sterile, but I also don't want it to completely break the bank... what unit should I be looking at?

I've been searching across the pedal world, but most of what I've found is mono. Like I said, I want the opportunity to feed a stereo mix to it. Any advice? Any hidden gems out there for a reasonable price? Thanks!
Old 18th September 2012
  #2
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🎧 10 years
I'd be looking at an Eventide H3000 or a Lexicon PCM80/81 those will cover Flange/Phaser/Jet Flange Resonance, Reverb, Stutter, Wild Delays spinning around the room or sub-groub etc plus "Special FX" etc or something you might wan't to use is a dedicated unit Roland or MXR Flanger/Phaser Roland SBF-330 (might be right number) Flanger/Phaser BBD Delay - Analog (late-1970's) etc.

Eclipse will sound to digital
Roland
Eventide
Lexicon
from $590-690.00 will get you a box that does it all - want more, more FX units, possibly if you had a budget I could help more! Though for now, hope that get's you started!
Cheers!
Old 18th September 2012
  #3
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🎧 10 years
Krp-1
Old 18th September 2012
  #4
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1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Mono gives you more depth. You can pan it in the stereo field, but beware of actual stereo flangers because they sound too fake and digital and just disturbing. It's hard to beat the original tape flange (Itchycoo Park etc) and that was mono tape machines.

I would use plugins, frankly. Maybe combine a simple digital flanger with your best analog tape emulation, which is probably a plugin. My favorite flanger now is a VST freebie that emulates wow and flutter. Or clone a track and automate a delay line, or automate a pitch shift curve (with time and formant stretching disabled).

The basic concept of flanging is very simple, and many ways to achieve it. What I like most about the old Abbey Road flanging is that they did not use an LFO. Instead, the engineer would ride the variable tape speed of the wet sound, and "play" it like an instrument - which gives more musical results. You can do the same with automation and recording the movement of a fader or something.
Old 18th September 2012
  #5
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
I don't know of any vintage stereo flanger units .. you also don't need it, send both sides of your stereo mix into it and mix the flanged signal back in, the result is going to be in stereo anyway .... if it is supposed to sound vintage I'd stay away from anything digital (hardware just as plug-ins), I'd recommend something like the Dynacord Tam 19 (or Tam 21), or the Loft 440 for wonderful 70's style flanging effects. both are mono in >> stereo out.
If a big SWOOOSH effect is what you're going after nothing beats the old A/DA flanger pedal or a vintage Electro-Harmonix Deluxe Electric Mistress.

If the thing has to be stereo in - stereo out I would refer to some analog phaser units, the big daddy of all analog phaser, Rolands mighty PH-830 comes to mind ... but good luck finding one, and they are way over 1000 bucks these days. cheaper alternative is the Vermona PH-16, quite an affordable analog stereo phaser.
Old 18th September 2012 | Show parent
  #6
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi ➑️
Mono gives you more depth. You can pan it in the stereo field, but beware of actual stereo flangers because they sound too fake and digital and just disturbing. It's hard to beat the original tape flange (Itchycoo Park etc) and that was mono tape machines.

I would use plugins, frankly. Maybe combine a simple digital flanger with your best analog tape emulation, which is probably a plugin. My favorite flanger now is a VST freebie that emulates wow and flutter. Or clone a track and automate a delay line, or automate a pitch shift curve (with time and formant stretching disabled).

The basic concept of flanging is very simple, and many ways to achieve it. What I like most about the old Abbey Road flanging is that they did not use an LFO. Instead, the engineer would ride the variable tape speed of the wet sound, and "play" it like an instrument - which gives more musical results. You can do the same with automation and recording the movement of a fader or something.
With all due respect,
Zero point cross flanging, and hand-breaking reels are pretty close to automated flanging, if you set the tape speed @15 or 7-/1/2-IPS you'd get a different result, manually flanging and zero crossing via digital BBD's are not far off each other - true, tape may be more organic, though often finding 2 great Revox PR99's & tape plus hands, rather then an SBF Roland flanger & a knob to flange with shows not much difference!
Old 18th September 2012
  #7
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Bob Ross's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Loft 450
Old 18th September 2012 | Show parent
  #8
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MattMoorman's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi ➑️
Mono gives you more depth. You can pan it in the stereo field, but beware of actual stereo flangers because they sound too fake and digital and just disturbing.

My favorite flanger now is a VST freebie that emulates wow and flutter.
I have one of those blue rackmount MXR flanger/doubler's and have ofter wished it was stereo...assuming that it would sound wider and have more depth. Interesting idea: Mono give you more depth. I'm going to have to explore that.

What's the VST freebie?
Old 18th September 2012
  #9
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🎧 10 years
Thanks so much for the advice, guys. Lots to follow up with here.

Just out of curiosity, Kiwi, what's that's freebie flanger vst with the emulated wow and flutter?
Old 18th September 2012
  #10
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fastlanestoner's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
there are a variety of great guitar pedals that can get you there. the old mxr flangers are killer
Old 19th September 2012 | Show parent
  #11
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1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLastByte ➑️
With all due respect,
Zero point cross flanging, and hand-breaking reels are pretty close to automated flanging, if you set the tape speed @15 or 7-/1/2-IPS you'd get a different result, manually flanging and zero crossing via digital BBD's are not far off each other - true, tape may be more organic, though often finding 2 great Revox PR99's & tape plus hands, rather then an SBF Roland flanger & a knob to flange with shows not much difference!
Not sure what you mean ... "with all due respect" generally means you are about to strongly disagree with what i've suggested. But from what I can tell, you seem to be supporting my basic suggestions that:
a/ tape flanging is the benchmark
b/ there are many ways to achieve practically the same thing


BTW - BBD's are analog, not digital. Most flangers can't do thru-zero in real time, because that would require time travel. Thru zero means that the wet sound can come BEFORE the dry sound - and that was achieved with two tape decks; one to create a predelay, and the other to modulate the wet sound from before and after the delayed dry sound. Any flanger that offers thru-zero has to have at least two delay lines, so they are rare.

Which is why I suggest automating your own flanges in a daw. I agree, it's not realistic to do it the old way, but we can get virtually the same effect with digital.

Then again, if you just want a basic un-synchronised wooshing sound, there are plenty of flangers to choose from.

Some flangers have an envelope follower. That gives them some interaction with the groove that doesn't require syncing to tempo or manual knob twisting.
Old 19th September 2012
  #12
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fivepoundmusic's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
MXR 126 Flanger Doubler

On the cheap: Deltalab Effectron
Old 19th September 2012
  #13
Brownsound
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I agree with Kiwi, no hardware box is as good as through-zero tape flanging.

You can achieve great flanging with any old tape machine acting as a delay, even old cassette deck or portastudio, as long as it has repro-head monitoring and preferably varispeed, although it's still possible without varispeed.

1. Put your mix (or whatever you want to flange) on 2 tracks of your DAW.
2. Move the 2nd track earlier in time by the the same amount as the head gap on your tape machine.
3. Patch the pre-delayed track into the tape machine, stick it in record and monitor the output from the repro head. So now when you monitor the original track and the pre-delayed track via the tape machine there will be no delay.
4. Use the varispeed to adjust the delay time earlier and later around the "zero point" to create cosmic phase sweeps which you record back into the DAW.
5. If you don't have varispeed, make the pre-delay a bit shorter, and slow the tape spools with your hands.
Old 20th September 2012
  #14
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To actually accomplish thru zero flanging in an analog world, you need a pair of BBD delay lines and alternately delay each side with an LFO. The only thing I know that really reproduces that is the Foxrox Paradox flanger, which is basically unobtanium (well, $800 or so might pry one free...). If you want it on both channels, I'd guess run one thru, then go back and run the other thru, or buy a pair of them
Old 20th September 2012
  #15
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Drumsound's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
As mentioned the Eventide H3000 has some coold flangers. I'm also really partial to some of the flangers in the Kurzweil Mangler. My favorite is Ned Flangers, but that very well be because of the name.
Old 20th September 2012 | Show parent
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumsound ➑️
As mentioned the Eventide H3000 has some coold flangers. I'm also really partial to some of the flangers in the Kurzweil Mangler. My favorite is Ned Flangers, but that very well be because of the name.
Is there really a program called "Ned Flangers?" Great, now I have to buy now of those things.

The Dynacord DRP-15 has some really good, exciting flangers in it, unlike anything else I've heard. I totally agree that it's near impossible to match true tape flanging.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC
Old 20th September 2012 | Show parent
  #17
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgarges ➑️
Is there really a program called "Ned Flangers?" Great, now I have to buy now of those things.

The Dynacord DRP-15 has some really good, exciting flangers in it, unlike anything else I've heard. I totally agree that it's near impossible to match true tape flanging.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC
Ned Flangers is a real preset!!!!

You have Vagabonds and Hooligans I think, the flange on the fade of the first song is totally Ned Flangers. It was so fitting for Backyard Tire fire, a Simpson's reference.

I gotta get a Dynacord...(besides my tape delay )
Old 20th September 2012 | Show parent
  #18
Registered User
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dublave ➑️
Thanks so much for the advice, guys. Lots to follow up with here.

Just out of curiosity, Kiwi, what's that's freebie flanger vst with the emulated wow and flutter?
FWIW - THE INTERRUPTOR: VST devices download page

It's not perfect, but there is something about it that makes it my goto flanger at the moment, unless I need something more controlled. I see it uses 6 oscillators, which probably explains the more tape-like natural feel than most digital flangers ...

He he ... with a name like dubslave you might love everything else at this site "The Dub Scrolls" ...
Old 20th September 2012
  #19
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🎧 15 years
The TC Electronic 1210 Spatial Expander is the ultimate flanger.

Lots of of capabilities, lots of options, sounds fantastic.
Vintage, vibey, and analog (if that's important to you).
You'll have to find a used one, though, as they're discontinued... and unfortunately, not really inexpensive!

Cheers,
Andrew
Attached Thumbnails
What hardware flanger for mixing?-tc_1210.jpg  

Last edited by mahler007; 20th September 2012 at 01:13 PM.. Reason: missed the OP's bit about not breaking the bank
Old 20th September 2012 | Show parent
  #20
ITJ
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mahler007 ➑️
The TC Electronic 1210 Spatial Expander is the ultimate flanger.

Lots of of capabilities, lots of options, sounds fantastic.
Vintage, vibey, and analog (if that's important to you).
You'll have to find a used one, though, as they're discontinued... and unfortunately, not really inexpensive!

Cheers,
Andrew

The TC 1210 is fantastic as well as The Lexicon PCM 41.
Old 25th September 2012 | Show parent
  #21
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi ➑️
Not sure what you mean ... "with all due respect" generally means you are about to strongly disagree with what i've suggested. But from what I can tell, you seem to be supporting my basic suggestions that:
a/ tape flanging is the benchmark
b/ there are many ways to achieve practically the same thing


BTW - BBD's are analog, not digital. Most flangers can't do thru-zero in real time, because that would require time travel. Thru zero means that the wet sound can come BEFORE the dry sound - and that was achieved with two tape decks; one to create a predelay, and the other to modulate the wet sound from before and after the delayed dry sound. Any flanger that offers thru-zero has to have at least two delay lines, so they are rare.

Which is why I suggest automating your own flanges in a daw. I agree, it's not realistic to do it the old way, but we can get virtually the same effect with digital. Then again, if you just want a basic un-synchronised wooshing sound, there are plenty of flangers to choose from. Some flangers have an envelope follower. That gives them some interaction with the groove that doesn't require syncing to tempo or manual knob twisting.
Correct, Kiwi..... with you... I agreed on Bucket Brigade Delays, & Tape Flanging, though at the same time for the OP I was also actually thinking of the Roland SBF-330 (I think that's the one) or the one that's a Roland Phaser/Flanger 2 Rack Tank - from the late 1979' early 1980's! Quite often a touch of 5-30ms Haas delay can help a mono Flanger Sound Bigger! There was also an MXR Flanger/Phaser and an MXR unit that had a Flanger/Phaser/Delay/Shifter all in 4 sections - I loved those old MXR units, twist a knob, flick a switch and Swoooooooooosh.....you were twisting around!
Old 25th September 2012
  #22
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superburtm's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Nothing like tape flange
Old 25th September 2012 | Show parent
  #23
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by drbob1 ➑️
To actually accomplish thru zero flanging in an analog world, you need a pair of BBD delay lines and alternately delay each side with an LFO. The only thing I know that really reproduces that is the Foxrox Paradox flanger, which is basically unobtanium (well, $800 or so might pry one free...). If you want it on both channels, I'd guess run one thru, then go back and run the other thru, or buy a pair of them
Actually - funny you say that as I've been using a PrimeTime II and a PCM-41 (Aux in or parallel) and they both work really well at Flanging, The PCM-41 through the Primetime II works the Best as an Aux send, inverted, sending the LFO into meltdown! Hours of Dial in ResoFlange come Sonic Meltdown type fun!
Old 4th October 2013
  #24
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Doctor Rockter's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Anyone here interested in a Dynacord TAM-19 ??
Old 4th October 2013
  #25
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Empire Prod's Avatar
 
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I have an old A/DA Flanger that sounds freaking cool. I need to blow the dust off that thing soon.
Old 4th October 2013
  #26
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Doctor Rockter's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Drop me a line if anyone wants/needs a TAM-19... rock on
Old 4th October 2013 | Show parent
  #27
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by drbob1 ➑️
To actually accomplish thru zero flanging in an analog world, you need a pair of BBD delay lines and alternately delay each side with an LFO. The only thing I know that really reproduces that is the Foxrox Paradox flanger, which is basically unobtanium (well, $800 or so might pry one free...). If you want it on both channels, I'd guess run one thru, then go back and run the other thru, or buy a pair of them
Actually, If you were to do that wouldn't you need to flip 1 Channel for Stereo Flanging?

TLB.
Old 4th October 2013 | Show parent
  #28
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor Rockter ➑️
Anyone here interested in a Dynacord TAM-19 ??
Isn't that a Chorus/Phaser/Doubler and the Dynacord 21 a Flanger?
curious
TLB
Old 5th October 2013 | Show parent
  #29
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5 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLastByte ➑️
Actually, If you were to do that wouldn't you need to flip 1 Channel for Stereo Flanging?

TLB.
It's a good question and possibly how he does it (Dave Fox). I have to admit that my eyes glaze over a bit when I read the product info and I end up just twisting knobs.
Old 5th October 2013
  #30
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dublave ➑️
If I'm wanting to make some very psychedelic mixes, more 60s and 70s inspired stuff, and I want a hardware unit that I can feed different elements or even the whole mix to, and I'm wanting it to be able to do everything from through zero flanging to straight up sound barrier jet engine wooshing, and I don't want it to sound too digital and sterile, but I also don't want it to completely break the bank... what unit should I be looking at?

I've been searching across the pedal world, but most of what I've found is mono. Like I said, I want the opportunity to feed a stereo mix to it. Any advice? Any hidden gems out there for a reasonable price? Thanks!
Man......I know ya said hardware, but you should at least consider looking at Satin. You'll get a great feel for that plugin just by trying the demo, and for $89 (until Oct 7th) its worth a shot. This is the best in the box flange ive heard bar none. FWIW Even if you get the hard unit, it may still end up having a place for a flangethropist like your sizzelf.
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