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Building a Recording Studio for a School
Old 17th September 2012 | Show parent
  #31
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Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mixedup ➡️
Having a hardware knob/mute button/fader to use as a kill switch when they (inevitably) **** things up in the DAW and risk blowing your speakers!
Absolutely. That's why I put the console back up. I originally had put it away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mixedup ➡️
If you go down this road, keep at least one of the outboard reverbs if you do this: however good or crappy they are, they'll be useful for cue mix comfort reverbs.
Yeah. Still trying to figure this out.

With only 24 channels (I think) I only have the ability to record 24 inputs while monitoring the DAW in stereo or use the 24 channels as returns for mixing. Not both. And overdubs would be tricky as well. Obviously, it can all be figured out but I want to make the "educationally" make sense. I don't want to teach something too unrealistic or something that they'd never do in the real world.

Thanks.
Old 17th September 2012 | Show parent
  #32
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Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunjji ➡️
Correct me if I am wrong, but I do think that a school can't sell its property. My 7th grade teacher was giving away a bunch of old iMacs because he wasn't allowed to sell them.
That's becoming less of an issue as I seem to be finding uses for most of it.
Old 17th September 2012 | Show parent
  #33
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Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by recordinghopkins ➡️
That's what I use with my HD24xr for i/o to a large soundcraft sapphyre.
It's worked rock solid for me for several years now. Take advantage of all of those HD24 and mixer channels! When studio tracking, they can run it in split mode for a 22x2, 12x12, 8x16 or any config they wish. (recall that the HD24 works in either analog or digital input modes, selectable in pairs of two channels)
Hmmm. You just brought up a great point. For some reason I was thinking I would have 24 inputs going into Pro Tools (or Logic) and 24 going out.

I guess using the ADAT wouldn't be as flexible as I was thinking?
Old 17th September 2012 | Show parent
  #34
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Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by subspace ➡️
I've been teaching audio at a high school since 2005. With those pieces on hand, I would lean towards adding a cheap TRS patch bay and a ProFire Lightbridge. Use the Soundcraft at the front of the room with 24 mic inputs hard wired and the 24 direct outs feeding the bay. Put the HD24 next to the board with it's 24 analog inputs fed from the bay. Have the kids patch channels 1 - 24 to inputs 1 - 24, then cross patch a vocal channel for overdubs. Connect the HD24's 3 optical outs to the Lightbridge, and the LB's analog stereo output back to a stereo return on the Soundcraft. Demonstrate the latency difference by flipping between the live input channels and the stereo return from the iMac.
Record live to the HD24 and then transfer it to PTs in a 24 track record pass, record live to PT's using the HD24 as just converters, record to both at once. Show them how to drag the equal length WAVs to zero on the iMacs from the live record pass. Leave the student stations as just an iMac and headphones. Use the MIDI input on the Lightbridge with a keyboard from the music dept. Project your PT's screen at the front of the class and plug a head set mic into the board so you can talk through the monitors over the volume of the music without taking your hands off the session. A document camera above the Soundcraft will be helpful as a second projector input. That's all for now, hope some of it is of use to you.
Much of it is. Thanks.

What's the benefit of recording a pass on the ADAT vs recording it directly into Pro Tools in standby mode?

Although the Music tech room with all the iMacs is a totally different classroom. The control room is pretty small and they can all hear and see everything going on easily.

Also, we already have a huge TRS patchbay with everything labeled and wired up already. Whew!!

Thanks.
Old 17th September 2012 | Show parent
  #35
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Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by subspace ➡️
He can't sell off gear and can only buy new from vendors that take a purchase order if it's anything like my district. I've had bids go out for a JBL Vertec line array only to have an EV XLD array installed instead as an "acceptable" substitute according to the district finance department. On the other hand, I had a DM2000VCM spec'd as a 1st choice console and an 02R96 as a lower cost alternative, only to have both desks delivered because "the funding was available." Most of these purchases must be made in a window of opportunity using a pre-selected list of vendors, relying on what lines they have access to. He who hesitates loses his funding...
Yeah. I'm starting to get this as well. It's gonna be all or nothing.
Old 17th September 2012 | Show parent
  #36
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Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq ➡️

for your next round of money, I highly recommend a really big flat screen TV you can project the software on so everybody can follow along even the kids in the back row.
Great idea.
Old 17th September 2012 | Show parent
  #37
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Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sim ➡️
How about 12 channels in and 12 channels out on the board. I can't imagine you'll be recording 24 tracks of audio simultaneously, maybe 12 but not 24.
That might be the way to go. I really want a system that is static to avoid confusion.
Old 17th September 2012 | Show parent
  #38
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Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by recordinghopkins ➡️
^ Live recording was mentioned... and I routinely use as many as 12 or 13 mics on a drum kit. Add in a bass player, scratch guitars, and a keyboard and you have potentially 16 or more channels. Surely the curriculum won't be strictly related to overdubs... but if it's setup for 24 in or out with the HD24, any combination of a split console setup can be used.
I guess we can start off doing some sort of 12 and 12 split and then move on to more complicated things.

Thanks
Old 17th September 2012 | Show parent
  #39
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Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I'm leaning towards this:

M-Audio ProFire Lightbridge | Sweetwater.com

Which is discontinued which might be a PITA if I can't buy from Ebay,

Or I could stick with the Firestudio 2626 and deal 8 inputs from there and 16 from the ADAT.

The benefit there is that I could run 8 analog inputs while having 24 outputs on the board.
Old 17th September 2012
  #40
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1 Review written
🎧 5 years
The PreSonus uses the same drivers as other non discontinued interfaces in the FireStudio line, so the drivers are current. I have a FireStudio Project, and that is supported and rocking.
Old 17th September 2012 | Show parent
  #41
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Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunjji ➡️
The PreSonus uses the same drivers as other non discontinued interfaces in the FireStudio line, so the drivers are current. I have a FireStudio Project, and that is supported and rocking.
Good to know.

Just checked and it does have software for both Mac OS Lion and Mountain Lion.

Thanks
Old 17th September 2012 | Show parent
  #42
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunjji ➡️
The PreSonus uses the same drivers as other non discontinued interfaces in the FireStudio line, so the drivers are current. I have a FireStudio Project, and that is supported and rocking.
+1.

edit: My firestudio lightpipe uses the same driver as my StudioLive 24.4.2. I just plug in either one and continue as usual.

@Kenny: The option of analog or digital in is not terribly complicated on the HD24. It compares to choosing the channel or tape path on an inline console. With this config it would be quite comparable to what the students would find in the real world, and when they learn the basics of signal flow, I think they'll find the HD24 quite simple. If they ask themselves the question "Am I using this mixer channel for analog input from my mic, or as digital input from pro tools?" then they'll know right away how to config the HD24. If from PT, engage the line switch on the mixer channel and change the HD24 to digital for that channel number. If mic input, disengage the line switch on the mixer and change HD24 to analog. It's just a couple of button pushes.

You can avoid the need to purchase a mix bus AD if you normal HD24 channels 1-22 to the corresponding mixer channel line in and direct out, and normal 23-24 to the mix bus out and 2track return. Overdubs can then be done via any channel they choose to plug into after answering the question above to determine how to route it. Send PT mix back to any other two channels and answer the question again. When it's time to mix, set 1-22 to digital in and leave 23-24 set to analog in.
Now all you have to spend on hardware is a couple hundred for the lightpipe box... my .02
Old 17th September 2012 | Show parent
  #43
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Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by recordinghopkins ➡️
+1.


@Kenny: The option of analog or digital in is not terribly complicated on the HD24. It compares to choosing the channel or tape path on an inline console. With this config it would be quite comparable to what the students would find in the real world, and when they learn the basics of signal flow, I think they'll find the HD24 quite simple. If they ask themselves the question "Am I using this mixer channel for analog input from my mic, or as digital input from pro tools?" then they'll know right away how to config the HD24. If from PT, engage the line switch on the mixer channel and change the HD24 to digital for that channel number. If mic input, disengage the line switch on the mixer and change HD24 to analog. It's just a couple of button pushes.

You can avoid the need to purchase a mix bus AD if you normal HD24 channels 1-22 to the corresponding mixer channel line in and direct out, and normal 23-24 to the mix bus out and 2track return. Overdubs can then be done via any channel they choose to plug into after answering the question above to determine how to route it. Send PT mix back to any other two channels and answer the question again. When it's time to mix, set 1-22 to digital in and leave 23-24 set to analog in.
Now all you have to spend on hardware is a couple hundred for the lightpipe box... my .02
That sounds like good advice. I'm still trying to get my head around it as the gear is not in front of me and the last time it was, I wasn't planning on using the ADAT at all.

I will be referring to your post as I set it up tomorrow. Thanks.
Old 17th September 2012
  #44
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🎧 10 years
It's absolutely my pleasure to throw ideas into the ring. I'm looking forward to seeing a pic of you and your students in their newly rebuilt studio!

I was going to draw you a diagram of my suggestion, so I just pulled up the manual for the Lx7ii and I've identified a possible problem with using this mixer. There is no line/mic switch. The manual isn't perfectly clear on this, but connecting to the XLR jack may bypass the line input or vice versa. My worry is that if you want to leave a mic snake connected to the rear of the mixer, it may not pass signal from the line inputs. You'll need to test this out, but I suspect you'll want to get that A&H back from the theater guys and return the Soundcraft to them. You really do need line/mic select switches if you plan to use the mixer for double duty recording and mixing. You didn't mention which model it was, but every A&H I've seen does have that switch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundcraft Lx7ii manual
3 - LINE INPUT
Accepts 3-pole `A’ gauge (TRS) jacks. Use this high impedance input for sources other than mics, such as keyboards, drum machines, synths, tape machines or guitars. The input is BALANCED for low noise and top quality from professional equipment, but you can use UNBALANCED sources by wiring up the jacks as shown, although you should then keep cable lengths as short as possible. Unplug anything in the MIC input if you want to use this socket. Set the input level using the GAIN knob.
I'm also not very crazy about the fact that the Lx7ii groups p48 in blocks of four. You'd have to mute all four channels just to connect or disconnect one mic. Ugh.
Old 17th September 2012
  #45
I dont think people learning signal flow will need external mic pre's

That might get things off to a bad start

"See all these mic pre knobs in the console? They are terrible! If you can, try not to use them"

They should use something built like a tank

And learn to love it - whatever it is.

A separate monitor section could be good too..

Just my 2 euro centimes
Old 17th September 2012 | Show parent
  #46
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by recordinghopkins ➡️
It's absolutely my pleasure to throw ideas into the ring. I'm looking forward to seeing a pic of you and your students in their newly rebuilt studio!

I was going to draw you a diagram of my suggestion, so I just pulled up the manual for the Lx7ii and I've identified a possible problem with using this mixer. There is no line/mic switch. The manual isn't perfectly clear on this, but connecting to the XLR jack may bypass the line input or vice versa. My worry is that if you want to leave a mic snake connected to the rear of the mixer, it may not pass signal from the line inputs. You'll need to test this out, but I suspect you'll want to get that A&H back from the theater guys and return the Soundcraft to them. You really do need line/mic select switches if you plan to use the mixer for double duty recording and mixing. You didn't mention which model it was, but every A&H I've seen does have that switch.



I'm also not very crazy about the fact that the Lx7ii groups p48 in blocks of four. You'd have to mute all four channels just to connect or disconnect one mic. Ugh.
Sorry to throw you off. The Soundcraft is similar to the model I posted but it's not that one. I know that this console did have separate line and mic inputs. I will check the model on the console today. I should have written it down before posting. Sorry.
Old 17th September 2012 | Show parent
  #47
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by recordinghopkins ➡️
You really do need line/mic select switches if you plan to use the mixer for double duty recording and mixing. You didn't mention which model it was, but every A&H I've seen does have that switch.
+1. A Line/Mic Switch that isolates the XLR and TRS inputs when selected is important.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia ➡️
What's the benefit of recording a pass on the ADAT vs recording it directly into Pro Tools in standby mode?
A bit of urban philosophy here .. Not every kid has grown up playing on computers, or lived in a house with a computer. I've been surprised by this sometimes. So I'd demonstrate both, and then let them all figure out which they prefer. It's demonstrating that there's a 2nd paradigm. Simplicity and Immediacy are Powerful. An HD24 is also a Tape Recorder. You turn it On, Arm Tracks, Hit Record. Then Playback. Simple.
Old 17th September 2012 | Show parent
  #48
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules ➡️

"See all these mic pre knobs in the console? They are terrible! If you can, try not to use them"
hehhehheh
Old 17th September 2012 | Show parent
  #49
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subspace's Avatar
 
3 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia ➡️
Much of it is. Thanks.

What's the benefit of recording a pass on the ADAT vs recording it directly into Pro Tools in standby mode?

Although the Music tech room with all the iMacs is a totally different classroom. The control room is pretty small and they can all hear and see everything going on easily.

Also, we already have a huge TRS patchbay with everything labeled and wired up already. Whew!!

Thanks.
Learning to use the HD24 will give them an idea of the benefits of a dedicated HDR when it comes to remote recording or just old school multi-track and console arrangements. Doing a one pass transfer to Pro Tools will help them understand how sessions can be exchanged between DAW platforms by equal start time audio files.

There should be opportunitys to use those remote recording skills on a performing arts campus. I have touring groups come through who will let their performance be multi-tracked and Quality source material that your students placed the mics on is one of the best resources you can get your hands on.

I use the HD24 with a DM2000 in our theatre and use the ProFire Lightbridge for a redundant PTs capture. It's been a reliable set-up.
Old 17th September 2012
  #50
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🎧 10 years
FWIW I worked for a public K-12 for a while and we used to sell off used technology. Sold our whole ATM network years after we'd gone to ethernet (there were still businesses in the area who wanted that crap if you can believe it).

My understanding (and it has been a while) is that it only becomes sticky if the equipment was purchased with specially designated funds like a grant or a bond issue or something; that can indeed make for a stickier situation (though you can still probably get around that with a little legal wrangling).
Old 17th September 2012 | Show parent
  #51
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by recordinghopkins ➡️
It's absolutely my pleasure to throw ideas into the ring. I'm looking forward to seeing a pic of you and your students in their newly rebuilt studio!

I was going to draw you a diagram of my suggestion, so I just pulled up the manual for the Lx7ii and I've identified a possible problem with using this mixer. There is no line/mic switch. The manual isn't perfectly clear on this, but connecting to the XLR jack may bypass the line input or vice versa. My worry is that if you want to leave a mic snake connected to the rear of the mixer, it may not pass signal from the line inputs. You'll need to test this out, but I suspect you'll want to get that A&H back from the theater guys and return the Soundcraft to them. You really do need line/mic select switches if you plan to use the mixer for double duty recording and mixing. You didn't mention which model it was, but every A&H I've seen does have that switch.



I'm also not very crazy about the fact that the Lx7ii groups p48 in blocks of four. You'd have to mute all four channels just to connect or disconnect one mic. Ugh.
It appears that you are correct. Ugh. This is the console that I have. Although it is 32 channels instead of 24 but only 24 have direct outputs.

I checked the Allen and Heath and it does allow switching. The model is the GL-2400.

I'm starting to think that it might make more sense to use the console (either one) as a front end for preamps and sub mixing and just use the DAW for playback and mixing. Forget about mixing on the console. Eeek.
Old 17th September 2012
  #52
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🎧 10 years
The GL2400 is a respectable mixer.

Might I convince you to reconsider? Mixing on a desk is the performance art of engineering, and a valuable experience for newbies, IMO. It's a totally different experience, and it will make them better live or broadcast sound engineers as well.
Old 18th September 2012 | Show parent
  #53
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Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by recordinghopkins ➡️
The GL2400 is a respectable mixer.

Might I convince you to reconsider? Mixing on a desk is the performance art of engineering, and a valuable experience for newbies, IMO. It's a totally different experience, and it will make them better live or broadcast sound engineers as well.
I'm still going back and forth on this in my head.

The thing that concerns me the most is the idea that I won't be there most of the time. So expecting the students to figure out a complicated situation isn't ideal.

I also noticed that the Allen and Heath's direct output is set to pre eq and fader unless I change the internal jumpers. eek.
Old 18th September 2012
  #54
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🎧 10 years
I see your point.
The split console is looking better and better for simplicity's sake.

Maybe you can use the Soundcraft channels 1-10 normalled as mic inputs for recording, and channels 11-22 normalled as 12 returns from PT (or some combination, depending on how many simultaneous inputs you think you'll need). That leaves the HD24's 23-24 for 2mix A>D.

A custom PT i/o template, with 12 input paths (two of them labelled as the 2MIX) and 12 output paths named for the mixer channel numbers that they are connected to, should make it pretty darn easy for them. Direct wire a couple of those verb units you mentioned to post fader auxes 5 and 6 and return them to their own 4 faders. Connect the patchbay to the mixer inserts for the compressors. Use the 4 Pre fader auxes for 4 mono cue mixes, and that should just about cover all of their needs. After buying the lightpipe interface, spend the money you have left on headphone amps, optical cables, and other bits you might need.

With the above, the HD24 would never need to be changed; it will recall your i/o config even after power cycling. There is a chance that someone will accidentally press the input select button at some point, but it toggles through analog only, digital only, and custom i/o so they can easily get back to where it belongs (showing both analog and digital as the input source).

Sorry to dominate the replies on this thread. I tend to geek out over this kind of thing. I'll ease up. I need to get back to my own rig anyway.
Old 18th September 2012 | Show parent
  #55
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Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by recordinghopkins ➡️
I see your point.
The split console is looking better and better for simplicity's sake.

Maybe you can use the Soundcraft channels 1-10 normalled as mic inputs for recording, and channels 11-22 normalled as 12 returns from PT (or some combination, depending on how many simultaneous inputs you think you'll need). That leaves the HD24's 23-24 for 2mix A>D.

A custom PT i/o template, with 12 input paths (two of them labelled as the 2MIX) and 12 output paths named for the mixer channel numbers that they are connected to, should make it pretty darn easy for them. Direct wire a couple of those verb units you mentioned to post fader auxes 5 and 6 and return them to their own 4 faders. Connect the patchbay to the mixer inserts for the compressors. Use the 4 Pre fader auxes for 4 mono cue mixes, and that should just about cover all of their needs. After buying the lightpipe interface, spend the money you have left on headphone amps, optical cables, and other bits you might need.

With the above, the HD24 would never need to be changed; it will recall your i/o config even after power cycling. There is a chance that someone will accidentally press the input select button at some point, but it toggles through analog only, digital only, and custom i/o so they can easily get back to where it belongs (showing both analog and digital as the input source).

Sorry to dominate the replies on this thread. I tend to geek out over this kind of thing. I'll ease up. I need to get back to my own rig anyway.
No. Not at all. I totally appreciate it and I seem to be leaning your way.

Just not sure how many inputs and outputs we really need as their needs or wants can change a lot more than mine would.

Right now I'm still using the Project I/O as an interface which is nice because it has faders but the darn thing will just stop passing audio out of nowhere. I wasted 20 minutes chasing down broken wires before I realized it just needed to be power cycled. Yuck.

Thanks for the input.
Old 18th September 2012
  #56
Sim
Lives for gear
If the students are using this system alone I would go for a static setup split console. If not they will find a way to get confused and mess the routing up even if it's relatively simple, assume no prior knowledge from them. Fix the the routing and let them focus on learning basic recording techniques and take logistic's out of the equation, it's just a another distraction from learning. They will have to learn the basics of mixing on the board you can build from that in pro tools. I would let them record and do one mix in the box away from the board and one mix on the board to understand the different ways of working when they are ready they can start a combination of both otherwise they'll get in a muddle.
Old 18th September 2012 | Show parent
  #57
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Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sim ➡️
If the students are using this system alone I would go for a static setup split console. If not they will find a way to get confused and mess the routing up even if it's relatively simple, assume no prior knowledge from them. Fix the the routing and let them focus on learning basic recording techniques and take logistic's out of the equation, it's just a another distraction from learning. They will have to learn the basics of mixing on the board you can build from that in pro tools. I would let them record and do one mix in the box away from the board and one mix on the board to understand the different ways of working when they are ready they can start a combination of both otherwise they'll get in a muddle.
Agreed. Thanks
Old 18th September 2012 | Show parent
  #58
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2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by recordinghopkins ➡️
The GL2400 is a respectable mixer.

Might I convince you to reconsider? Mixing on a desk is the performance art of engineering, and a valuable experience for newbies, IMO. It's a totally different experience, and it will make them better live or broadcast sound engineers as well.
Seconded. And as a teaching tool it enforces things like signal flow and gain structure in a way ITB does not.
Old 22nd September 2012 | Show parent
  #59
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Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
A quick update:

I decided to go with the Allen and Heath console which is a 24 channel version of this:

Allen & Heath GL2800-24 24-Input, 8-Bus Live Sound AH-GL2800-24

It's all wired up with the ADAT and works well.

The ADAT took me forever to figure out because an older session was open and I couldn't switch out of the 2 channel mode. Finally, I turned it off, removed the drive and was able to switch things around.

So I still have the Project Mix I/O in there because it has 8 ADAT ins and outs for being used as a computer interface.

I'm having trouble locating ADAT lightpipe interfaces as they're discontinued and I probably can't submit a budget, get it approved and get a unit before an auction ends.

So I'm thinking of just going with a ProFire 2626. It's $400 (close to what the ebay auctions are getting anyway) and it has the added benefit of having the first eight channels of I/O (analog) working simultaneously. Plus 16 ADAT I/Os.

Using the ADAT interface only allows me 24 inputs OR outputs (or any combination) but not both. Although the console only has 24 channels anyway. So recording 22 microphones at the same time or mixing 22 channels at the same time are all possible.

But using the ADAT for everything is alot simpler to teach. Sorry. Still thinking as I type.

But. Using this console is really teaching signal routing and flow which I taught today. Much easier to understand it when it's all in a console with a patchbay so I can explain mic inputs, to preamp (console) inputs, to direct outputs, to tape machine inputs.

We even monitored on the mic channel vs output of Pro Tools so they could hear the latency difference. Pretty cool stuff.

Now I want a console.
Old 22nd September 2012
  #60
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recordinghopkins's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Thanks for the update!
It doesn't sound like it will compromise your teaching success to go with the Profire 2626.

Consoles rock Those kids are going to love it.
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