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Room treatment, my ass :)
Old 10th September 2012 | Show parent
  #61
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CrankyChris's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by joecandy ➡️

Anybody here that knows anything, knows this will pass, and the OP will soon be battling with mixes again very soon, and has a LONG journey ahead of ups and downs. He has no idea how much he has to learn, and he will understand or believe virutually none of what you're telling him right now.
Check back in a year, and his tune will have significantly changed.

In addition, i'm betting that if you ask the OP to post a mix, it will be pretty obvious where
he is in his mixing journey.
This was, of course, mixed on the old monitors. I 've only had the Neumanns 2 days. But it should give you a pretty good idea of where I am "on my journey".

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/32257396/angelwbrokenwing.mp3

Please post one of your mixes. Maybe there are some learning opportunities for me.

Quote:
A million bucks says, it aint nearly as far as he thinks it is.
Where I think it is, is relative to where I think it was. Looking forward to hearing your work.
Old 10th September 2012
  #62
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Mike Douaire's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Congrats on the upgrade OP!

I did a similar thing recently - i went from (terrible) BX8's to (lovely) KH120's. I can attest to this being a very rewarding experience.

The other thing I got was a MixCube - just run one in mono. Between the KH120s and the Mixcube, i get great translations.

I would never underestimate the importance of acoustic treatment though
Old 10th September 2012
  #63
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Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by FruesanHaug ➡️
There is something to what the OP is saying.

Getting great speakers would be my first priority if I had ...say...$6000...I would spend it on great ref speakers with maybe $500 on room treatment...

There is no way that $500 speakers with $5500 of acoustic treatment will net better continued results.

So yes...I agree and would prioritize great speakers. They do however have to be great to make a difference.


Both can only improve your situation.
Old 10th September 2012 | Show parent
  #64
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrankyChris ➡️
This was, of course, mixed on the old monitors. I

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/32257396/angelwbrokenwing.mp3

P.
As i suspected. You're not even posting a current mix. WHAT??

I wouldnt even condsider a vocal and guitar a "Mix" really. If you've been having that much trouble with just those items, you have a long way
ahead. Recording things properly is something you'll eventually find
is important. That requires, GASP< treating your room!

Best of luck.
Old 10th September 2012
  #65
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audiogeek's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Man I'm doing a ton of LOL'ing in this thread.

Keep it up GS'ers.
Old 10th September 2012 | Show parent
  #66
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams ➡️
Nothing fixes a bad room faster than a pair of great headphones.


Nothing screws up a mix faster than headphones.
Old 10th September 2012 | Show parent
  #67
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CrankyChris's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by joecandy ➡️
As i suspected. You're not even posting a current mix. WHAT??

I wouldnt even condsider a vocal and guitar a "Mix" really. If you've been having that much trouble with just those items, you have a long way
ahead. Recording things properly is something you'll eventually find
is important. That requires, GASP< treating your room!

Best of luck.
Wow.

Sorry, I just got the monitors Friday evening. I haven't had an opportunity to complete a mix on the Neumann's

My room is treated, as detailed in the OP and in several posts since. If you'd like, you can see a diagram of my room treatment on page 2 of this thread.

I'm sorry you don't think my song a real mix. Please post some of your work. I'd like to hear what a real mix is.

And here is a song (I think it will be a real song according to your definition) that was tracked in my <GASP> treated room:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/32257396/sacrifice.mp3

It's no "aja" but I think it's all right. Looking forward to hearing your work! I'm eager to learn!
Old 10th September 2012
  #68
Moderator
 
psycho_monkey's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by FruesanHaug ➡️
There is something to what the OP is saying.

Getting great speakers would be my first priority if I had ...say...$6000...I would spend it on great ref speakers with maybe $500 on room treatment...

There is no way that $500 speakers with $5500 of acoustic treatment will net better continued results.

So yes...I agree and would prioritize great speakers. They do however have to be great to make a difference.


Both can only improve your situation.
If you did that, in my (slightly educated) opinion, you'd be wasting your money - unless you stretched that $500 a long way, and put in a lot of labour to build some decent traps (in which case, you're spending more, in real terms).

What you should really do, again IMO, is to work out what is needed to make your room great, and spend that on the room treatment. Spend the rest on the best pair of speakers you can.

Assuming the $5500 was invested wisely and the room done well, your $500 speakers will sound way way better in that room than just about anywhere else.

Your $5500 speakers in a half-assed treated room will perform poorly, and up to a point will be a waste of money. You simply won't get the best out of them.

It's difficult to say between 2 hypothetical situations, but I'm guessing that in scenario a) it's going to be easier to "learn" the speakers and compensate for their inaccuracies. In example b) if there's nulls and flutters in the room, then however good the monitors are it'll still be difficult to be consistent.

At a risk of pulling rank, out of all those saying "speakers before room", how many have experience of working in really good rooms, and how many have more than a basic understanding of control room design? this is one of those situations where it's not just opinion, there's a lot of cold hard fact involved too.
Old 10th September 2012 | Show parent
  #69
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Insomniaclown's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrankyChris ➡️
This is my favourite thing of the day!

Now back to the thread about egg cartons being great absorbers or something like that...
Old 10th September 2012 | Show parent
  #70
Moderator
 
psycho_monkey's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrankyChris ➡️
Wow.

Sorry, I just got the monitors Friday evening. I haven't had an opportunity to complete a mix on the Neumann's

My room is treated, as detailed in the OP and in several posts since. If you'd like, you can see a diagram of my room treatment on page 2 of this thread.

I'm sorry you don't think my song a real mix. Please post some of your work. I'd like to hear what a real mix is.

And here is a song (I think it will be a real song according to your definition) that was tracked in my <GASP> treated room:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/32257396/sacrifice.mp3

It's no "aja" but I think it's all right. Looking forward to hearing your work! I'm eager to learn!
Since you put it up, and I'm only listening on consumer headphones right now, this is quite indicative of something mixed in a room full of nulls and poor stereo imaging to my mind - something better monitors are unlikely to fix!

Your vocal tone sounds quite nice to me, as do the guitars, but there's some really weird compression push/pull going on and the stereo image feels a bit weird (that could be the mp3 compression - sounds like gentle unlinked master buss compression to me). By far the biggest issue is the bass end - very flabby and unfocussed. Sounds to me like you just can't hear where you're at in your space, and I empathise - the bass end is the hardest thing to get right IMO anyway, and it's even harder in a less-than-great room.

The whole thing strikes me as quite "soft" which might be your intention but I don't think suits the song - it wants to be a bit more "in your face" - and that might also be a monitoring thing (which new monitors MIGHT help).

The above critique is worth exactly what you paid for it, and feel free to ignore if you don't agree.
Old 10th September 2012 | Show parent
  #71
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psycho_monkey's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams ➡️
Nothing fixes a bad room faster than a pair of great headphones.
That's like putting a plaster ("band aid") on a stab wound!
Old 10th September 2012 | Show parent
  #72
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CrankyChris's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey ➡️
By far the biggest issue is the bass end - very flabby and unfocussed. Sounds to me like you just can't hear where you're at in your space, and I empathise - the bass end is the hardest thing to get right IMO anyway, and it's even harder in a less-than-great room.

The whole thing strikes me as quite "soft" which might be your intention but I don't think suits the song - it wants to be a bit more "in your face" - and that might also be a monitoring thing (which new monitors MIGHT help).

The above critique is worth exactly what you paid for it, and feel free to ignore if you don't agree.
I appreciate it! That mix was done in a well treated room on the Events. I ended up farming that project out to be mixed by somebody else (Here's his mix - huge improvement!!!).

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/32257396/BrokenWingDoug.mp3

I'm a big believer in "it's the Indian/not the arrow so I'm sure a lot of my mixing problems are user error. The point of my post, however, was that these monitors - the Events (for me at least) were horrible compared to the Neumanns. Room treatment is not always the answer (which is the answer I constantly get here )
Old 10th September 2012 | Show parent
  #73
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrankyChris ➡️
Wow.

Sorry, I just got the monitors Friday evening. I haven't had an opportunity to complete a mix on the Neumann's

My room is treated, as detailed in the OP and in several posts since. If you'd like, you can see a diagram of my room treatment on page 2 of this thread.

I'm sorry you don't think my song a real mix. Please post some of your work. I'd like to hear what a real mix is.

And here is a song (I think it will be a real song according to your definition) that was tracked in my <GASP> treated room:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/32257396/sacrifice.mp3

It's no "aja" but I think it's all right. Looking forward to hearing your work! I'm eager to learn!
It's nice that you reference Aja, but it's still subjective. Some may not like that type of sound. I do, but others may not. They may feel a "dirtier" less-dynamic, "glued" thing more pleasing, which I happen to despise. But again, my opinion as it's all subjective. You guys could go back and forth for years as to why this, that, or the other recording sucks when the next person may think it's brilliant.
Old 10th September 2012 | Show parent
  #74
Moderator
 
psycho_monkey's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrankyChris ➡️
I appreciate it! That mix was done in a well treated room on the Events. I ended up farming that project out to be mixed by somebody else (Here's his mix - huge improvement!!!).

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/32257396/BrokenWingDoug.mp3

I'm a big believer in "it's the Indian/not the arrow so I'm sure a lot of my mixing problems are user error. The point of my post, however, was that these monitors - the Events (for me at least) were horrible compared to the Neumanns. Room treatment is not always the answer (which is the answer I constantly get here )
May well have been user error - I was just speaking as I heard. If you've already treated the room, then maybe the only thing left to upgrade was the monitors. But that's not what the thread says - you've done the opposite! Without a remix/revisit of the same song, done by you in the same room, it's very difficult for anyone to agree or disagree with you. If you've got the time and have access to the files, you should re-open the multi of your original mix, make corrections as you now hear with your Neumanns, and repost. A lot of effort of course, but might well prove or disprove your argument.

New mix is a vast improvement of course - both in arrangement and in balance. Would have been interesting to see what the pro would have done with the original arrangement, but I don't blame you for changing it.

I still stand by my statements of room before monitor upgrades (within reason).
Old 10th September 2012 | Show parent
  #75
Moderator
 
psycho_monkey's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams ➡️
It's the lesser of two evils. I see nothing wrong with a cans check, after all, it's what most of your customers will be listening on. Sometimes using what the end user does can offer "insight".

These days, I don't see stereo systems like I used to in homes. Mostly, it's a TV/video playback system or a small combo stereo like you see at Wall Mart for a couple hundred bucks.

To me it seems like the old standard big home stereo systems we used to see sold are mostly now all gone. People have moved on to other sources of entertainment, like video and the internet. Music continues to loose importance in an averge persons' life. Hence, you see the reduction of playback systems, from large stereos to knock your friends over to earbuds to tune them out.
Definitely nothing wrong with a check - I think we all do that. I couldn't mix on cans for days on end though, nor do I feel I'm hearing a "true" perspective of what's going on, though I agree they're useful for hearing a different perspective. Also good for editing.
Old 10th September 2012
  #76
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jrhager84's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams ➡️
Mixing on cans in a really bad room is far better than trying to mix on speakers in that same room. Not everyone has a properly adjusted listening space. For location work, it's the only reference you can bring with you. Learning to use both cans and speakers only enhances your skill sets.
^ Yep.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777
Old 10th September 2012 | Show parent
  #77
Moderator
 
psycho_monkey's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams ➡️
Mixing on cans in a really bad room is far better than trying to mix on speakers in that same room. Not everyone has a properly adjusted listening space. For location work, it's the only reference you can bring with you. Learning to use both cans and speakers only enhances your skill sets.
I wouldn't disagree with that.

However, if you have the option to treat the room (and few rooms couldn't be treated, assuming you're allowed to hang pictures in your rented space), I'd at least try that first.
Old 10th September 2012 | Show parent
  #78
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3 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrankyChris ➡️
How might you go about diagnosing these peaks and nulls?
Search out threads that discuss REW.
Old 10th September 2012 | Show parent
  #79
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RKrizman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nznexus ➡️
the room doesnt really matter. only for bass if you have a sub..
Actually, you have little chance of correcting the low bass with Gearslutz-level room treatments. But what you can do is clear out a lot of the low midrange mush that masks detail, and tame high end ringing. Useful stuff to do. Hard to say which is most important. Back in the Old West you needed a horse AND a gun.

-R
Old 10th September 2012
  #80
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Vintageidiot's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
20/20 are pretty good, with a good amp. Neumann's are just confirming that you were hearing pretty well, IMO.
Old 11th September 2012 | Show parent
  #81
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psycho_monkey's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by FruesanHaug ➡️
Yes, a bit risky to pull rank

I personally can treat fairly appropriately for bass (traps), take care of 1st reflections (panels) and deal with annoying peaks and valleys...placement in many many average rooms...for $500....it won't be perfect, but I (and many others) have done exactly this in the rooms we have to call our mix rooms....and they ARE very usable.

What I can't do, is find a speaker that does what Barefoote mm35's do for under $5,500.

If you haven't used those or better, then it won't make sense to you.

Definitely prioritize Speakers over treatment for MIXING...
I've used one of the Barefoots...I couldn't say which model, but it was in a very nice room, so that kind of makes the experience moot.

I'm sure you could make the $500 investment go a long way.

I'm assuming there was a fair amount of DIY time invested there too though?

That to me is investing more than $500 as I said. If my time is close to $500/day, and I spend 3 days doing room treatment....that makes a larger investment.

If it's done enough to even out the room that you find it consistent enough to translate - great.

I'll say it again, since it doesn't seem to be sinking in for some - you can't LEARN a bad room. You can work around it, you can check elsewhere, you can eventually get a good mix - but you can't LEARN the sound of a room full of nulls, because the sound is constantly changing with each head movement.

If your room is more even, you CAN learn the sound of a less great set of speakers, because you have somewhere to start from.

Now - once that room is in place - speakers like the Barefoots will start to show their true worth, because you can trust them. If you're not in that position, you're wasting money on such good speakers, because you still won't be able to trust them.

Hence room before speaker upgrades. Of course, nothing is black and white, and the reality is somewhere in the middle, as you demonstrate.
Old 11th September 2012
  #82
Moderator
 
psycho_monkey's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by FruesanHaug ➡️
uhh...hence nothing actually...

$500 speakers will get you nowhere...$500 worth of DIY treatment can get you really far.

Who cares if you have to spend a weekend doing it...you are not making 500 a day if your situation isn't together...so we are talking about getting your situation together first...most of us do not have assisting jobs in million dollar studios, with the luxury of mixing after hours...we have to make our environments work.

Putting your time into your craft is essential...it's not an out of pocket expense to do some treatment on your down time.

PS. Speakers like barefootes don;t start to show their worth after this and that..they have an immediate impact on your work no matter where you are...like...the second you start working on a pair....thats' the point.
Ok - we disagree end of discussion!
Old 16th November 2012 | Show parent
  #83
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2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
i just treated my room. did some stuff..

well what a big difference. the sound is almost 3d.

Old 16th November 2012
  #84
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machoboy's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
In order to benefit from room treatment you have to know what room treatment sounds like and compensate for it. Then what's the point? Because it's easier than compensating for a jagged sounding room. That's the only way I can put it.

I think a lot of people just throw the treatment up and assume it will "improve their mixes", which is kind of ridiculous. You aren't improving anything you're just allowing yourself to hear your monitors in a purer form. If you don't like those monitors then you might very well like them even LESS.
Old 18th November 2012 | Show parent
  #85
Gear Guru
 
Glenn Kuras's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrankyChris ➡️
I have 8 4' X 2' X 4.5" bass traps
and 4 4' X 2' X 3" traps

First reflection points are treated (including cloud). Back corners have the 4.5" traps. As this is also my tracking room, I have to double duty in some areas. I typically put the mic somewhere below/around the back cloud



I'm up for suggestions
That is a nice size room and if done right could yield some great results.

1)You are facing the short wall which is never recommend. I would put the mix spot on the right short wall to give the speakers a longer throw and get you more or less out of the middle of the room. Never a good place to sit.
Video: Positioning Listening Spot
2)You do have some bass trapping but honesty not enough. In a room that size I would cover a lot more corner area and I would use thicker panels.
3)The panels on the back wall need to be thicker and or mix in something tuned to deal with the lowest modes (you are around 40hz or so).
The following is a post I did with our test room which is close to your size. It was a mix of broad band bass trapping (what you have but thicker) and tuned membrane traps.
https://gearspace.com/board/7597560-post146.html

BTW I don't doubt at all that the new monitors sound great but if you put them in a great room you can have your cake and eat it too.
Old 18th November 2012 | Show parent
  #86
Gear Guru
 
Glenn Kuras's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Syncamorea ➡️
Search out threads that discuss REW.
The following is a video we did on using the program.
Room EQ Wizard Tutorial Video
Old 19th November 2012 | Show parent
  #87
Lives for gear
 
3 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras ➡️

1)You are facing the short wall which is never recommend.
I'm sure this is a typo.
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