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Room treatment, my ass :)
Old 9th September 2012 | Show parent
  #31
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[QUOTE=psycho_monkey;8242815]

As with everything in music, your system is only as good as it's weakest link. /QUOTE]

While this is a good platitude, it is not an absolute truth. Otherwise no one would ever remaster records, because the original master could not be improved because it is the weakest link. Strong links in the chain can compensate for weaker links in the vast majority of situations.
Old 9th September 2012
  #32
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by unfiltered420 ➑️
While this is a good platitude, it is not an absolute truth. Otherwise no one would ever remaster records, because the original master could not be improved because it is the weakest link. Strong links in the chain can compensate for weaker links in the vast majority of situations.
Eh? I'm not sure that line of thinking works...in the case of remastering, you're attempting to improve on something with the benefit of hindsight, not fix a weak link.

My point remains - you can't fix an appalling room filled with flutter echoes and bass nulls by putting a set of 50k auspergers in it, and the same holds true for less significant flaws.

I'm not saying a bad room will sound better with crap monitors than good monitors - I'm saying that if you're going to spend top dollar on good speakers, you're foolish to not try to improve your room at the same time, if it needs it.
Old 9th September 2012
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yummerz ➑️
As for monitors - Auratones, NS-10s, nuff said. Michael Brauer mixes 70% of the time on a boombox sitting behind him.
Ns-10s do a different job - they're perfectly respectable monitors in many respects, and also benefit from a great room!

As for MHB, with respect, is this comment from personal experience? Or are you just going by Internet/magazine quotes?
Old 9th September 2012 | Show parent
  #34
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This post is somewhat silly to me. The logic to me sounds like "cables don't matter and neither do preamps or compressors... I just upgraded my Rode Nt2 to a U47 and I can finally get dat vocal tone!!!"

Room acoustics are ridiculously important, as are orientation of the room, symmetry, listening position, ear height relationship to the tweeters... Etc

I also totally agree with whoever mentioned that learning a room is impossible if you shift your head a few inches and the response changes... And while mixing quieter is somewhat of a remedy it doesn't mean that the room problems are gone they are just less apparent. That being said a good set of monitors will allow you to hear things well at low levels and still have clarity in detail... so if these new monitors you got do that for you and that's a good thing!

If nothing else having a treated control room is amazing for clients... if they're standing at the back of the room and they say "man that has too much bass guitar " but at mix position sounds great then you'll be in a rat race of opinions and that's not a conducive mixing environment. I never want to put myself in a situation where I'm forced to tell client "you're wrong...trust me it will sound fine" just because I have "learned" my set up. I want to be able to walk into my room sit down and get basically the same sound every time.

Plus room treatment is so cheap in comparison to everything else we buy, I can't really see any reason to not invest in it. $2000 may get you a really decent set of monitors that work for you and that's obviously important... to the OP-- it's great that you found monitors that you enjoy working on! Congrats on that! Still you can treat a small control room for $2000 and it Will help you get translatable results time and again... Which is one of our most important goals while monitoring in the first place...translation

With all of that said I totally agree with the original poster on the fact that investing in good monitors is extremely important...switching to nice Focals was a big deal for me
Old 9th September 2012 | Show parent
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K. Osborne ➑️
Still you can treat a small control room for $2000 and it Will help you get translatable results time and again... Which is one of our most important goals while monitoring in the first place...translation

With all of that said I totally agree with the original poster on the fact that investing in good monitors is extremely important...switching to nice Focals was a big deal for me
Right. And I have. My point was that the advice here is #1 treat your room and #2 get an sm7. I treated my room, and while I did see an improvement (particularly in low end response), the improvement was nowhere near the improvement I heard when I changed speakers. Not even close. Not even in the same zip code.

Also one of the biggest questions (that is unanswerable) in the room treatment debate is how much treatment. Really, it's unanswerable. When do you know it "treated"? It's so dynamic that a slight movement of a couple of inches can change the whole frequency response of the room. You can NEVER perfect that. There are experts on this site that suggest you should be careful about bass traps b/c they might trap too much high end - so perhaps 703 with an outsside/jacket might be appropriate. So while I don't doubt room treatment helps (I'm certainly not taking mine down) but regardless of how much you treat it still ends in "you just have to learn your room"

I'm not anti-treatment. I'm just anti-bad advise.

popman hit the nail on the head IMO

"Treating your room does nothing with inaccurate monitors...I think is the point. Transducers affect the sound more than the room they're in. "

As he says it's kind of ridiculous seeing people plug $200 Chinese condenser into a $1k preamp. IMO doing that is the same as putting a bunch of room treatment in a room where you monitor on ...lets say...monitors that don't suit you.
Old 9th September 2012 | Show parent
  #36
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrankyChris ➑️
Right. And I have. My point was that the advice here is #1 treat your room and #2 get an sm7. I treated my room, and while I did see an improvement (particularly in low end response), the improvement was nowhere near the improvement I heard when I changed speakers. Not even close. Not even in the same zip code.
for all you know, had you not treated your room FIRST, when you bought the new speakers you might not have HEARD this improvement to the same degree

you might even have started a thread called "new monitors, my ass!"

since your experience consist ONLY of the one path of room first, new speakers second, it is silly for you to generalize. Only if you had both experiences would you have enough information to draw a conclusion about how important it is to to treat your room first.

we get tired of seeing the "same old advice" here on Gearslutz, but it should be kept in mind that at least some things appear again and again because they are TRUE!

Mere repetition does not make them true, but the boredom created by that repetition does not make them UNtrue, either.
Old 9th September 2012
  #37
BOP
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🎧 5 years
Everything is important. You can't cut any corners.
As everyone else said, you need to watch out for that bottleneck.

It costs a lot of money to actually avoid weak links. 1000 pounds on cable here, months of tuning your room there, getting your dirty mics serviced etc. etc.

For instance right now I don't use a patch bay but I am trying really hard to avoid getting one once my setup is complete since I don't want to introduce yet another element that could be a bottleneck.

A bad room annoys the **** out of me and every-time I moved home in the past I had to re adjust my amps for my guitar practice which was always an in your face indication that all of those rooms where crap. I'd rather have a flat room without random junk resonating at different frequencies than good monitors or even a good amp since otherwise I can't even play my instrument properly yet alone try and improve on it with precise outboard equipment.

You have to get the room correct first in my opinion. How can anything follow if the room is crap?
Old 9th September 2012 | Show parent
  #38
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrankyChris ➑️
R
popman hit the nail on the head IMO

"Treating your room does nothing with inaccurate monitors...I think is the point. Transducers affect the sound more than the room they're in. "

As he says it's kind of ridiculous seeing people plug $200 Chinese condenser into a $1k preamp. IMO doing that is the same as putting a bunch of room treatment in a room where you monitor on ...lets say...monitors that don't suit you.
Unfortunately, the laws of physics kind of disagree.

If you have monitors that (say) are hyped in the low end, if your room is (theoretically) perfect, with no nulls or flutter echoes, you can "learn" to mix bass heavy in this room and achieve translation.

If your room is full of nulls and flutters, you can't ever "learn" this because you're chasing a moving target. Move your head a couple of inches and you have to start over. It's hit or miss whether anything translates.

So whilst I agree that the weakest link is always the limitation, I'd rather have limited monitors in a great room, than great monitors in an awful room.

And it's way better value for money as well - weaker monitors punch above their weight in the good room, and great monitors are weaker in a poor room.
Old 9th September 2012
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrankyChris ➑️
I replaced my Event 20/20 bas that I've had for 15 years with some Neumann KH120s. I don't know if the Events are particularly bad or that the Neumann's are all that great, but I do know that the Neumann's work for me. Within about 45 minutes of plugging them in, I had the best sounding mix I'd ever done. It was as if a veil had been lifted and <shocker> I could actually hear what was going on. I burned a cd to play in my car (preparing for disappointment) only to find that it still was the best mix I'd ever done - and it sounded pretty much exactly like it did on my monitors. The translation is awesome. And my reference mixes sound as I'd expect - not all jacked up like they did on the Events.

So: for all you struggling out there with your mixes: Consider upgrading your monitors. I'm sure room treatment will help (and I do have room treatment) but the improvement I've experienced w/ these monitors is bordering on unbelievable. Buy the best monitors you can afford! Again: Buy the best monitors you can afford!!!

1. Your correct, the BAS 20/20 suck bigtime and are cloudy and tubby.
Its like trying to mix with a notch filter on every frequency. I got rid of those things and it was day and night with the ASP8's

2. I got a better I/O. I had a MOTU828MK1 which sounded like the Event 20/20s. Got a Steinberg MR816 to replace it. Again, another huge step up in sound here and being able to HEAR what was there.

3. The guys that harp on the room treatment issues are probably the same dudes that listen at 110dB on their monitors. Turn those things down to like 75dB and the ROOM wont have but a min effect on the sound. All of a sudden the bass buildup and reflections decrease, go figure

You cant mix what you cant HEAR, crappy monitors wont let you HEAR whats there, same thing with crappy I/O
Old 9th September 2012 | Show parent
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shanabit ➑️
...
3. The guys that harp on the room treatment issues are probably the same dudes that listen at 110dB on their monitors. Turn those things down to like 75dB and the ROOM wont have but a min effect on the sound. All of a sudden the bass buildup and reflections decrease, go figure

You cant mix what you cant HEAR, crappy monitors wont let you HEAR whats there, same thing with crappy I/O
Sorry, but I can still hear the effects of my room quite well @75 dB, which is about what I mix at. Yeah, of course bass buildup and reflections decrease, but so does the "competing" source level. It's all relative. I'm not saying this relativity does not change though.

BTW, I own the ASP8s too (actually the PSP8s) and the MR816 (x2), but I'm not using the D/A on them, although I believe the D/A would compete very well against my high end gear.

Anyways, when I add proper room treatment (mine's portable since I have ASC tube traps), the difference at the mix position is staggering; literally night and day. With treatment, the differences clearly heard include (but not limited to):

1. Muss less low end overhang (bass is much faster/tighter). You can hear what's going on in the important low end much better. Since you can hear it better, your mixes will be better for it: Pure logic.

2. Tighter focus/imaging. You can hear what's going on much better with the panning/positioning, etc. in the stereo field.

3. Flatter overall response, which contributes to better translation between systems.

Nobody is arguing that better monitors make a difference. A room that's treated acoustically can take it much further. IMO, it's imperative.
Old 9th September 2012 | Show parent
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey ➑️
...
So whilst I agree that the weakest link is always the limitation, I'd rather have limited monitors in a great room, than great monitors in an awful room.

And it's way better value for money as well - weaker monitors punch above their weight in the good room, and great monitors are weaker in a poor room.
Nail hit squarely.
Old 9th September 2012 | Show parent
  #42
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrankyChris ➑️
Right. And I have. My point was that the advice here is #1 treat your room and #2 get an sm7. I treated my room, and while I did see an improvement (particularly in low end response), the improvement was nowhere near the improvement I heard when I changed speakers. Not even close. Not even in the same zip code.

Also one of the biggest questions (that is unanswerable) in the room treatment debate is how much treatment. Really, it's unanswerable. When do you know it "treated"? It's so dynamic that a slight movement of a couple of inches can change the whole frequency response of the room. You can NEVER perfect that. There are experts on this site that suggest you should be careful about bass traps b/c they might trap too much high end - so perhaps 703 with an outsside/jacket might be appropriate. So while I don't doubt room treatment helps (I'm certainly not taking mine down) but regardless of how much you treat it still ends in "you just have to learn your room"

I'm not anti-treatment. I'm just anti-bad advise.

popman hit the nail on the head IMO

"Treating your room does nothing with inaccurate monitors...I think is the point. Transducers affect the sound more than the room they're in. "

As he says it's kind of ridiculous seeing people plug $200 Chinese condenser into a $1k preamp. IMO doing that is the same as putting a bunch of room treatment in a room where you monitor on ...lets say...monitors that don't suit you.
Well if you have a peak of +10db at 40hz and a dip of -20db around 100hz, and insane comb filtering in the higher freq reflections when in the listening position, you can get the best monitors on the planet and you'll still have that problem.

I'm curious though as to exactly what acoustic treatment you've already applied to your room?.

Certainly for me, acoustically treating the room easily made as dramatic an improvement as upgrading the monitors, particuarly hitting the first reflection points doubled the amount of detail I could hear into the mix and significatly widened and deepend the soundstage.

Of course, using stuff like 2" thick foam is going to do nothing particuarly useful. As for the monitors, upgrading from 15 year old Events (whos drivers were probably a bit tired and weren't performing like they were when the monitors were brand new) to a KH120, its no wonder you experienced a dramatic improvement, but this tells you nothing of the impact of properly treating the room acoustics.
Old 9th September 2012 | Show parent
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoSueMe ➑️
Sorry, but I can still hear the effects of my room quite well @75 dB, which is about what I mix at. Yeah, of course bass buildup and reflections decrease, but so does the "competing" source level. It's all relative. I'm not saying this relativity does not change though.

BTW, I own the ASP8s too (actually the PSP8s) and the MR816 (x2), but I'm not using the D/A on them, although I believe the D/A would compete very well against my high end gear.

Anyways, when I add proper room treatment (mine's portable since I have ASC tube traps), the difference at the mix position is staggering; literally night and day. With treatment, the differences clearly heard include (but not limited to):
My point being that MOST dudes harping the room thing are the SAME guys who CRANK their speakers whilst mixing. I agree, treating the room is imperative as well. All 3 are actually,
room, monitors, AD/DA.

What DA are you using instead of the MR? Curious
Old 9th September 2012
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shanabit ➑️
1. Your correct, the BAS 20/20 suck bigtime and are cloudy and tubby.
Its like trying to mix with a notch filter on every frequency. I got rid of those things and it was day and night with the ASP8's

2. I got a better I/O. I had a MOTU828MK1 which sounded like the Event 20/20s. Got a Steinberg MR816 to replace it. Again, another huge step up in sound here and being able to HEAR what was there.

3. The guys that harp on the room treatment issues are probably the same dudes that listen at 110dB on their monitors. Turn those things down to like 75dB and the ROOM wont have but a min effect on the sound. All of a sudden the bass buildup and reflections decrease, go figure

You cant mix what you cant HEAR, crappy monitors wont let you HEAR whats there, same thing with crappy I/O
I have the 2020's and I treated my room as well as using a JBL msc1,but Im getting great mixes.

I also have a 10 inch sub,and some 5 inch event speakers to fill in that notch!

Yes notch,you are correct man LOL!

I could never figure out how to sit the vocals in a mix with just the 2020's alone!I also owned mine for 15 years.I also had krk,maudio and various other monitors in my room,only to send them back for not out performing my events.

My room treatment ,msc1,sub and smaller speakers really give me an environment I can mix in.

The only problem I'm still faced with,is around 13-15 khz.for some reason the hi hats really sizzle in my car?

I hear it in the studio,but its not as pronounced.maybe I over treated my room?

Nevertheless,the sizzle does not sound bad,though it could use a 1-3 db reduction.

Ps.I'm using da's from ramsa da7,I have yet to prefer any other converters.I love how they sound,going in and coming out.

Sent from my PC36100
Old 9th September 2012 | Show parent
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shanabit ➑️
What DA are you using instead of the MR? Curious
I'm using the Lavry DA11.
Old 9th September 2012 | Show parent
  #46
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1 Review written
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I think the main reason some people on GS avoid doing proper room treatment is because there is nothing fun or glamorous about it; actually, IMAO the whole DIY room treatment journey is probably the most monotonous and painful aspect of anything to do with recording, production, mixing, etc.

Let's face it, you either have the $ to hire others to do it properly whilst you sit back and smoke a joint feelin like some kind of pampered superstar, OR you have to get down and dirty and feel like some kind of construction worker in a torturous slave pit for a week or two. For me, once it was finally complete, it was BY FAR the most eye opening moment I have ever had since getting involved in this game; and it clearly transcended any other gear investment in terms of importance concerning end results.

Like I said, there's nothing fun or glamorous about doing it the RIGHT WAY ! It's downright painful !!

I also think most who say they've treated their room most likely did some half ass job at it.

Old 9th September 2012 | Show parent
  #47
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loopy's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by shanabit ➑️
1. Your correct, the BAS 20/20 suck bigtime and are cloudy and tubby.
Its like trying to mix with a notch filter on every frequency. I got rid of those things and it was day and night with the ASP8's
+100

Tubby a flabby low end and in a poorly treated room they will sound tubby and flabby on steroids.

I too have the ASP8 and like you say it's like night and day however because of the extended low end (very tight) in the ASP8, a decent room is needed unless you mix at very low levels.

I agree with the others in that each piece in the chain can effect what you are hearing and IMHO the higher the quality of the monitor, the smoother and lower it goes, the bigger the chance for the room causing problems.

A bad room will make bad monitors sound even worse but it will also effect good monitors as well especially monitors with a solid, honest low end.
Old 9th September 2012 | Show parent
  #48
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arksun ➑️
I'm curious though as to exactly what acoustic treatment you've already applied to your room?.
I have 8 4' X 2' X 4.5" bass traps
and 4 4' X 2' X 3" traps

First reflection points are treated (including cloud). Back corners have the 4.5" traps. As this is also my tracking room, I have to double duty in some areas. I typically put the mic somewhere below/around the back cloud



I'm up for suggestions
Old 9th September 2012
  #49
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🎧 15 years
Spend a couple thousand on treatment. Its worth it.
Old 9th September 2012 | Show parent
  #50
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arksun ➑️
Well if you have a peak of +10db at 40hz and a dip of -20db around 100hz, and insane comb filtering in the higher freq reflections when in the listening position, you can get the best monitors on the planet and you'll still have that problem.
How might you go about diagnosing these peaks and nulls?

And as I understand it: even if you do this - won't the response be totally different if ... say someone else comes in the room... or if you move a book case....or your head? Believe me, I'm all for treatment. I built 12 traps by myself (and I aint much of a carpenter). It just seems a little like chasing your tail. Is the goal essentially sucking out every reflection in the room?
Old 9th September 2012 | Show parent
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shanabit ➑️
3. The guys that harp on the room treatment issues are probably the same dudes that listen at 110dB on their monitors. Turn those things down to like 75dB and the ROOM wont have but a min effect on the sound. All of a sudden the bass buildup and reflections decrease, go figure
Doesn't quite work like that, its all relative, any room issues will affect the sound at ANY listening volume. As long as your listening position distance to the speakers stay the same, it doesn't matter how loud or quiet you listen, the impact of the room is always there. If the room causes a -20db null at 100hz, you can be playing the speakers at 100db, 85db or 50db, its still -20db below that level @100hz. The difference stays relative.
Old 9th September 2012 | Show parent
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrankyChris ➑️
I have 8 4' X 2' X 4.5" bass traps
and 4 4' X 2' X 3" traps

First reflection points are treated (including cloud). Back corners have the 4.5" traps. As this is also my tracking room, I have to double duty in some areas. I typically put the mic somewhere below/around the back cloud
Looks like your room is well treated then and you're just noticing the dramatic improvement from low end monitors to something more accurate. But I bet if you were to take ALL the acoustic panels out of your studio and listen to your KH120 then, you'd be itching to get those panels straight back in again
Old 9th September 2012 | Show parent
  #53
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yummerz ➑️
[...]

It is possible to have a good mix from an untreated room, especially if you reference your mixes on different systems and know the weaknesses of the room. There is more than one pro in Behind the Glass who says room treatment is unnecessary. [...]
Possible?

Sure. More or less anything is.

Unnecessary?

Sure... as long as you don't mind gambling by mixing without having a good reason to be confident in what you're hearing.

But if you want to be assured of getting out what you think you're putting in in terms of music and mixing efforts, I would strongly suggest embracing the implications of the axiom that at the heart of monitoring is a systemic interrelationship between speakers, room, and ears.
Old 9th September 2012 | Show parent
  #54
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I agree with the post that pointed out that the OPs ability to hear such a difference between the speakers may have in part been due to the pre existing room treatment.

I have no room treatment and find it nearly impossible to program bass sounds, play bass parts and mix because the bass is so smeared and tubby.

I also know from experience that the speaker placement has a great deal to do with this corollary to proximity effect. Something like a resonance feedback effect when speakers are placed to close to untreated corners with all parallel surfaces producing something like a bass resonance feedback. It sounds awful and has little to do with what is actually recorded since the recording is usually done with synths plugged in directly.

I seriously doubt that simply changing the speakers with everything else remaining exactly the same will solve this problem in total or even significantly. It defies logic to even thing so.

If one cannot afford to change the speakers or would rather not spend money needlessly it is probably a bad idea to dismiss room treatment so readily. There is too much collective experience on this board for something that is largely held as a simple and universal truth to be absolutely incorrect.
Old 9th September 2012 | Show parent
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arksun ➑️
Doesn't quite work like that, its all relative, any room issues will affect the sound at ANY listening volume. As long as your listening position distance to the speakers stay the same, it doesn't matter how loud or quiet you listen, the impact of the room is always there. If the room causes a -20db null at 100hz, you can be playing the speakers at 100db, 85db or 50db, its still -20db below that level @100hz. The difference stays relative.
I agree with your analysis, but, your missing my point. My POINT has nothing to do with room acoustics.
Old 9th September 2012
  #56
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by shanabit ➑️
My point being that MOST dudes harping the room thing are the SAME guys who CRANK their speakers whilst mixing. I agree, treating the room is imperative as well. All 3 are actually,
room, monitors, AD/DA.

What DA are you using instead of the MR? Curious
I'm a total volume pansy, so that makes 2 of us putting acoustics first whilst still mixing quietly.

Thing is a) I've worked in many many rooms, and I know which ones I found easiest, and when it was hard. By far the hardest was working in untreated bedrooms.

and b) part of my degree was in acoustics, so I've got a fair idea of the physics behind things.

I refer you to my previous post re good speakers in crap rooms and vice versa.

In answer to CChris who was saying "how do you know when enough is enough" with bass treatment in a small room, it's pretty difficult to do too much - you'll run out of space before you get too much bass trapping. Usual design practice is to trap the hell out of a room, then add back a bit of brightness using diffusion as well, but control room design is a whole art in itself. There's a forum for that!
Old 10th September 2012 | Show parent
  #57
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nznexus ➑️
the room doesnt really matter. only for bass if you have a sub..
Wow - did you really / actually say that?

It appears that what you don't know has filled several books... I'd suggest you read some.

Peace
Old 10th September 2012
  #58
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🎧 15 years
Guys n gals
Listen to some posters that have a plethora of professional experience in previous posts.
Everything matters actually, if you want to priorities due ro budget restraints then that's ok but as long as you know the wnd goal and the big picture. You can't have one and not have the other. Monitors matter. Room matters. Good monitors in a good room is what the end goal is here. It's not one over the other. Where on earth do some of you get your ideas from? Jeepers, I say, jeepers.
Old 10th September 2012 | Show parent
  #59
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Night Stalker ➑️
Guys n gals... Where on earth do some of you get your ideas from? Jeepers, I say, jeepers.
now, now, you may be upset, but that does not excuse foul language!
Old 10th September 2012
  #60
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
This is a silly thread. The OP is clearly experiencing what most people expirience when they first upgrade to better monitors.
"Hey, wow!! everything sounds so much better!! I can totally mix now! Yay!!"

You'd have to be none to bright to believe you can master this field over night.
It just doesnt happen, sorry.

Anybody here that knows anything, knows this will pass, and the OP will soon be battling with mixes again very soon, and has a LONG journey ahead of ups and downs. He has no idea how much he has to learn, and he will understand or believe virutually none of what you're telling him right now.
Check back in a year, and his tune will have significantly changed.

In addition, i'm betting that if you ask the OP to post a mix, it will be pretty obvious where
he is in his mixing journey. A million bucks says, it aint nearly as far as he thinks it is.
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