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Drummer played too hard?
Old 25th May 2006 | Show parent
  #31
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🎧 15 years
Yay!

More engineers telling drummers how to play....

If your snare is choking, cut a small hole in the snare-side head, say the size of a small coin to allow the drum to vent a bit better.

My much-loved Acrolite chokes quite easily (because of the combination of shell composition and rims), but with a small hole in the bottom head it retains much of its character and allow me to hit hard.

Because hitting hard sounds better? No, because hitting hard allows me to retain a certain amount of "conviction" (good word, Slippy) and groove that doesn't happen at lower levels.

Of course, none of this will stop engineers trying to tell musicians how to play their instrument, and in doing so rob the character and personality out of the performance.

Let the bitching continue!

Cheers,

Brendon
Old 25th May 2006 | Show parent
  #32
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 84K
Every SIX Hours??!!!?? How long do you track for?

good question.
Old 25th May 2006 | Show parent
  #33
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by sedohr
Steve Gadd is supposed to play soft, yet he is a fairly ok drummer. And sounds ok too. Could it vary from player to player ? Maybe it doesnΒ΄t say anything about a drummer how hard he hits ?

Kalli

steve smith doesnt hit real hard. awesome drummer.
Old 25th May 2006 | Show parent
  #34
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1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by u b i k
some guys, the harder they hit, the bigger it sounds.

some guys, the harder they hit, the more it falls off the cliff.

when you learn to box, you learn to direct the force 2 inches behind the strike surface. you make impact on a clean 90 degrees, the force follows thru for an instant, then you recoil with an instantaneous snap.

if you're off on any of those factors, you will not fully transfer the energy of your motion into your target. you will absorb it yourself, you will lose it to extraneous movement, you will push or graze or slap more than you will strike.

add to that where you strike. bearclaw a man in that space between his jaw and his ear and you will see him pause, he will cry, because there's a huge bundle of nerves now overloading his system with pain messages. two inches behind that and you hit no nerves, but your knuckles sure will feel the pain of hitting skull.

drums seem to be the same kind of thing. it ain't how hard you hit, it's how smart you hit. you can smash away like a neanderthal and sound like a complete pussy, you can tap away while sipping a mint julep and sound like god incarnate.

gregoire
del ubik
you know, i was beginning to think obi wan

was dead......but now.......not so sure.

Old 25th May 2006 | Show parent
  #35
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1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by DirkB
Hitting a snaredrum too hard? And that was a problem?

Interesting.

Normally, if a drummer hits the snare really like a man, you can actually dig in and tune the snare so it fits the tune.

I was in a plane today from Taiwan to Singapore and saw a Billy Joel concert from 1993. Liberty Devito on drums (not sure if I spelt the name right).

Killer drummer; definition of hitting the snare like a man.

Greetings,
Dirk
liberty rules.
Old 25th May 2006 | Show parent
  #36
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reid's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by sedohr
Steve Gadd is supposed to play soft, yet he is a fairly ok drummer. And sounds ok too. Could it vary from player to player ? Maybe it doesnΒ΄t say anything about a drummer how hard he hits ?

Kalli
don't know what he's like in the studio, but live, he doesn't just tickle those things....
certainly not a 'pounder', but more than happy to get stuck in when required. As so many have already said, it's about good technique allied with power, not just physical strength.
Old 25th May 2006 | Show parent
  #37
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Produceher
1. Great drummers never break sticks, cymbals or go through heads each day.
That is such absolute bolony (of which I've read much on this thread so far).
I agree on the cymbals, but plenty of good drummers trash both sticks and heads.
It depends what weight sticks they are using, how much they are shafting the hi-hats, how thin the heads are. Thinner heads are GREAT for recording, but often need to be changed at least daily.
I can totally relate to the initial thread.
There is nothing worse than a choked, high tuned snare drum.
I've heard drums choked when played at high volume. I used to do it myself. Now I mostly try and play at 80% (as Cajonezzz describes).
A very experienced engineer taught me to play much softer, the result is a much bigger drum sound.
For the music that requires energy, I play very hard, but not so hard all you hear is attack and the tone of the drums is lost.
Old 25th May 2006 | Show parent
  #38
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2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by brendondp
Yay!

More engineers telling drummers how to play....

If your snare is choking, cut a small hole in the snare-side head, say the size of a small coin to allow the drum to vent a bit better.

My much-loved Acrolite chokes quite easily (because of the combination of shell composition and rims), but with a small hole in the bottom head it retains much of its character and allow me to hit hard.

Because hitting hard sounds better? No, because hitting hard allows me to retain a certain amount of "conviction" (good word, Slippy) and groove that doesn't happen at lower levels.

Of course, none of this will stop engineers trying to tell musicians how to play their instrument, and in doing so rob the character and personality out of the performance.

Let the bitching continue!

Cheers,

Brendon

See... this is a big part of the problem right here. MOST of the great records we love are great because of a collaboration. A collaboration between the musicians in the band, and the band with the Producer. I mean... the Beatles, AC/DC, Queen, Nirvana, Aerosmith, Elvis, U2... etc... ALL had great producers and a good bit of "help" getting to the way they sound, and ultimately AMAZING records.

The reason this WORKS is because no one can be TRULY objective about their own playing. Even the most open-minded of people can't really hear their own playing the way others hear it. You might be doing something that sounds GREAT to you sitting there on the throne... but doesn't translate that well to the audience. The only chance you have of knowing this is either somehow being able to hear the recording of it back COMPLETELY objectively (very rare ability), or to take the word of someone who's taste and perceptions you really trust.

Thus... when you work with a Producer/Engineer who's work you trust and admire... and they give you a suggestion about your technique, you are a fool not to at least give it an open-minded try. Sure... you have to be true to your own creative tastes... but it's crazy to write something off just because it didn't originate in your own mind! And yes... some producers/engineers overstep their bounds (and can at times even diluate a bands natural "coolness")... but man... get over it. You can always just say "no" if what they are asking is way to far outside your comfort zone. We are all on the same team here... the team trying to make your recording sound like the most amazing recording of all time... to our own perceptions of course... and THAT is where the fun begins... heh

I played in rock bands for years (electric guitar)... a couple with record deals. I never grew MORE as a player than when I was in the studio with a great producer. I worked with some that just SUCKED at how they asked for what they wanted, and some that were really, really good at it.... but I learned to play in ways (and with tones) that I had never even thought of... and have now encorporated into my own style. I have found the input of others invaluable in my development as a player and as an engineer and producer.

If you think you ALWAYS know the best way to play and or sound and you don't need a person that makes his/her living pulling the best sounds/performances out of people to help you be the best you can be.... well... good luck with that. I am sure it will take you real, real far bro.

Nothing personal.... but man...you are missing out on a whole world of ideas and possible growth as a player.

Like him or not.... President Reagan had a plaque on his desk his entire Presidency which I think sums this up nicely. It read something like this: "There is no limit to what can be accomplished when you don't care who get's the credit".

I would say more than half of the good things I have learned as a player/producer/engineer have come from watching or listening to someone else. I mean... is there anything original left?? You might as well suck up all the information you can and incorporate it all into your style to draw upon when needed. THIS is what makes you amazing at your craft.

All... JMTC of course...
Old 25th May 2006 | Show parent
  #39
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso
That is such absolute bolony (of which I've read much on this thread so far).
I agree on the cymbals, but plenty of good drummers trash both sticks and heads.
It depends what weight sticks they are using, how much they are shafting the hi-hats, how thin the heads are. Thinner heads are GREAT for recording, but often need to be changed at least daily.
I can totally relate to the initial thread.
There is nothing worse than a choked, high tuned snare drum.
I've heard drums choked when played at high volume. I used to do it myself. Now I mostly try and play at 80% (as Cajonezzz describes).
A very experienced engineer taught me to play much softer, the result is a much bigger drum sound.
For the music that requires energy, I play very hard, but not so hard all you hear is attack and the tone of the drums is lost.
it's actually funny with many drummers who have "pounding" reputations -
many of them wave their arms around a lot, but don't actually HIT that hard -
in other words, it's MOSTLY for show - they're sort of acting like conductors for the band,
and also as visual energy to get the audience physically into the momentum of the song - pretty cool.

so, you might see a lot of elbows flyin', and all kinds uh stuff,
but the actual drum head is not getting hit THAT hard.

in that way, the drummer saves his heads, sticks & cymbals, hands, arms, heart, ears, etc.

iow, he knows how hard to hit at the ACTUAL point of contact with the various drums.

same with heavy rock guitar players - if they actually slammed the guitar at point of contact as hard
as they were dropping their arms, the strings would break EVERY TIME.

when i first started playing heavier music and slamming my guitar, i used to break 3 strings at a time,
sometimes 4 - then i realized, wait a minute - THIS IS NOT POSSIBLE.

i looked at the guys in all the videos, and there they were CREAMING their guitars, and then it hit me -
it's ALL for show. so i learned how to do the same thing. pound the AIR, GRAZE the strings -
sort of like air guitar, actually heh. many professional metal/ heavier music guitarists use this technique
to fully implement the rocking out visual on stage, or in videos. again, this helps the audience to feel the pulse,
there's almost nothing more enjoyable than a band that is REALLY VISUALLY synched to thier music live.

the band members COUNT on getting this VISUAL meter from their drummer. (especially, that rhythm guitarist
who's always getting lost heh, and the singer who just fell off the stage heh).

i learned this a long time ago - most of that stuff is for SHOW.

good point about the sticks, too. but a real drummer can play any kit with any heads and any sticks -
might not be able to do ALL the tricks, but they'll still make the kit sound as good as it possibly could -
even if the kit, heads and sticks suck.

granted, there aren't a TON of great drummers around, imo - meaning drummers with
real dynamics, musicality, texture, the right tuned drums and all the
stick/ mallet/ brush/ tamborine/ various cymbal options, etc.,
who really understand the tuning of their kits.

ime, most of the great drummers i've heard or played with are also songwriters,
play other harmonic instruments, sing, and even produce.

many drummers are GRET arrangers, as well, because they're the ones who are
CONSTANTLY gauging the audiences response to everything,
so a good drummer can and WILL and SHOULD tell you when your bridge is too long,
when the tempo isn't working, when the groove isnt happneing, etc.

they can also tell you all kinds of other stuff about how the lead singer needs to
connect more with the audience, and get their performance skills up to par, but i digress.

here's to GREAT drummers. y'all m&th$rf*ckers KICK BUTT

also, just to state the obvious, there are LOTS of different kinds of drummers
that are great for different reasons.
Old 25th May 2006 | Show parent
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sqye
good point about the sticks, too. but a real drummer can play any kit with any heads and any sticks -
might not be able to do ALL the tricks, but they'll still make the kit sound as good as it possibly could -
even if the kit, heads and sticks suck.

I agree with most of what you say in your post but I disagree about that sticks.

I have (or had until I started pretty serious Yoga) very bad pains in my wrists and hands when playing drums. It gets much worse when I use a pair of sticks that are outside of the norm for me. I play pretty heavy sticks but not logs. If I play small little jazz sticks or big marching snare tree trunks I can not play with any groove or feel and after about 20 minutes the pain in my hands and wrists is almost unbearable.

I think that to play music to the best of their ability the musician needs to be comfortable.... comfortable with the music style, comfortable with the people he or she is playing with, comfortable in the environment they are playing in and comfortable with the gear they are using. The better the musician the larger their comfort zone in all the areas above but to ask a drummer to play a different stick size would probably take almost all drummers out of their comfort zone. Changing drum sticks is MUCH different than changing guitar picks or even going from weighted to unweighted keys for a keyboard player, I play all three and the drum sticks make the most difference of any instrument that I play.
Old 25th May 2006 | Show parent
  #41
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🎧 15 years
Crypticglobe,

That is one of the most profound posts I have ever read on this forum. Thank you.
Old 25th May 2006 | Show parent
  #42
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🎧 15 years
I've seen drummers that absolutely wreck heads, sticks and kits but still sound like pussies, equally well I've worked with great drummers with huge, powerful sounds that don't hit that hard at all. I disagree with Slippy's post only by the fact that it could be construed as advocating kit bashers as the people whom get the biggest loudest sound, and that certainly isn't true. Come to think of it I can think of many great players that don't do much damage at all, hitting too hard can stiffle the sound and be self defeating. Thats not to say that a good drummer can't hit hard without hitting the stops as early as lessor mortals. Think of good drumming like matial arts, its not about brute force its about control and discipline.

Regards to all



Roland
Old 25th May 2006 | Show parent
  #43
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by crypticglobe
See... this is a big part of the problem right here. MOST of the great records we love are great because of a collaboration. A collaboration between the musicians in the band, and the band with the Producer. I mean... the Beatles, AC/DC, Queen, Nirvana, Aerosmith, Elvis, U2... etc... ALL had great producers and a good bit of "help" getting to the way they sound, and ultimately AMAZING records.

The reason this WORKS is because no one can be TRULY objective about their own playing. Even the most open-minded of people can't really hear their own playing the way others hear it. You might be doing something that sounds GREAT to you sitting there on the throne... but doesn't translate that well to the audience. The only chance you have of knowing this is either somehow being able to hear the recording of it back COMPLETELY objectively (very rare ability), or to take the word of someone who's taste and perceptions you really trust.

Thus... when you work with a Producer/Engineer who's work you trust and admire... and they give you a suggestion about your technique, you are a fool not to at least give it an open-minded try. Sure... you have to be true to your own creative tastes... but it's crazy to write something off just because it didn't originate in your own mind! And yes... some producers/engineers overstep their bounds (and can at times even diluate a bands natural "coolness")... but man... get over it. You can always just say "no" if what they are asking is way to far outside your comfort zone. We are all on the same team here... the team trying to make your recording sound like the most amazing recording of all time... to our own perceptions of course... and THAT is where the fun begins... heh

I played in rock bands for years (electric guitar)... a couple with record deals. I never grew MORE as a player than when I was in the studio with a great producer. I worked with some that just SUCKED at how they asked for what they wanted, and some that were really, really good at it.... but I learned to play in ways (and with tones) that I had never even thought of... and have now encorporated into my own style. I have found the input of others invaluable in my development as a player and as an engineer and producer.

If you think you ALWAYS know the best way to play and or sound and you don't need a person that makes his/her living pulling the best sounds/performances out of people to help you be the best you can be.... well... good luck with that. I am sure it will take you real, real far bro.

Nothing personal.... but man...you are missing out on a whole world of ideas and possible growth as a player.

Like him or not.... President Reagan had a plaque on his desk his entire Presidency which I think sums this up nicely. It read something like this: "There is no limit to what can be accomplished when you don't care who get's the credit".

I would say more than half of the good things I have learned as a player/producer/engineer have come from watching or listening to someone else. I mean... is there anything original left?? You might as well suck up all the information you can and incorporate it all into your style to draw upon when needed. THIS is what makes you amazing at your craft.

All... JMTC of course...
Hang on, this is a thread about choked snares... I offered a tip I've found helpful for extracting the most out of a (problematic) instrument and you think I'm immediately close-minded and "ALWAYS know the best way to play and or sound and you don't need a person that makes his/her living pulling the best sounds/performances out of people to help you be the best you can be..."

C'mon, Steve. We're talking degrees here, and you've approached it from one angle and I've approached it from another. There's probably a lot more similarity in our approaches than not.

See, the examples you use (Beatles, AC/DC, Queen, Nirvana, Aerosmith, Elvis, U2) all have character and individuality in spades. Brian May didn't develop his tone cause some producer or engineer said it would be better by building his own bloody guitar. He decided to build his own bloody guitar and in doing so became one of the most distinctive guitarists of his generation. I can imagine some producer (or engineer - heaven forbid) saying, "Yeah, Brian, that treble boost you've got going is a little bit zingy, and that guitar you're using is a bit crap, don't you think? Why don't you use this Rickenbacker we've got over here..." Where would that leave us?

Or "Edge, don't you think you should lay off the delay for this one..?" Or "Hey Ringo, how 'bout we tape all these heads down here with tape and make 'em real dead sounding - it's easier to get a kick-ass punchy sound".

Unfortunately, all the examples you've used only bolster my original argument for allowing individuality of style, tone and character to come through, rather than supressing it. I love those acts because they don't sound like any one else. And yes, collaboration is great, but George Martin never played drums on any Beatles album I know, nor did Roy Thomas Baker play any solos on any Queen album I know.

As for the person in front of their amp or sitting on their drum stool not being able to objectively critique their own playing and how it sounds to an audience... well, apart fom being total **** (sorry, but it is), I prefer to let the mic tell me what's happening. This may come as a surprise to you, but I can actually listen to a play back and figure out where I rushed ahead, where the playing was a little inconsistent, where the tone of the instrument may not fit the composition, when a mic isn't working or when it needs to be moved a couple of inches. All without a producer or engineer to tell me so.

And when I'm the producer/engineer (like on the album I've just finished), I still work incredibly hard to make sure the character and individuality of the artist comes through as much as possible, and is as representative of their personality rather than mine. Did I suggest things? Did I offer perspectives? Absolutely. But at the end of the day it was her album, her songs, and it's going to be her name on the album that people buy. And she will learn far more by putting her stuff out there as a collection of her person at this particular point in time, than by me putting out something that bears no relation to who she is as a performer. If the performer has ownership of the process and product then they're in a better position to make decisions about where they need to grow and improve instead of always relying on others to tell them what's "good" or not.

Bjork, P.J. Harvey, Beck, Tool, the Strokes, Wilco... where the hell would they be had someone gone, "hey, you should do it this way..." I sure as hell reckon I wouldn't be listening and referencing their work, had they churned out generic crap to suit a producer or engineer. And in those cases, they've chosen people to enhance their individuality, as have the ones you've mentioned.

Steve, I'm sure we agree on lot's of stuff, and I'm not trying to make this personal, but please don't suggest that there aren't those of us (drummers, guitarists, producers, engineers, whatever) who don't work really hard on producing great work, and that we all need someone else to tell us what to do. I try and take on as many new ideas on every session I work on, but I cannot and will not be everything to everyone. Don't like my playing - get someone else. Don't like my producing - get another producer. Don't like the new Tool album - buy something else.

The bands and artists I love have all become influential because they bucked popular trends, not because they followed them. At some stage you have to nail your colours to the mast and be an individual. Pissing around with what every A&R, producer and online music reviewer may think or have an opinion on (and these days, doesn't everybody) is simply a detraction from spending time on making an individual musical (or sonic) statement. Where you choose to put the emphasis will depend on who we work with, but for me, I'm much more interested in producing something unique, rather than something generic.

But again, I'm sure we agree more than may be first apparent.

Cheers to you,

bdp
Old 26th May 2006
  #44
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by planet red
In the recording the drummer broke about 15, 2B drumsticks and a cymbal.
I didn't read past this.

Drummer's shouldn't break so much stuff. That's what us guitar players are for.

Seriously, you can be a hard-hitter but you don't have to break cymbals. I wanna see the snare head. I'll bet it has dents everywhere, randomly placed.

Replace him.
Old 26th May 2006
  #45
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by planet red
Finished tracking drums for a record and am starting to realize the snare was hit too hard and choked itself out. In the recording the drummer broke about 15, 2B drumsticks and a cymbal. So with a higher tuned snare (which he does so he doesnt dent his drumhead first take... we had to change snare heads every 6 hours) the drum sounds like a tiny ting..

I tried to explane about choking himself out but he really wanted that hard hitting drumsound and didnt follow my advice..

Compression brings up too much cymbals by the time its giving it enough susain. I have a transient designer and that kind of does the same thing..

I've gone through my whole sample library and none of the samples have a ring that blends well with the snare, so everything sounds triggered.. Usually I add samples to increase punch, but now I need sustain..

Anyone have any ideas, like what type of sample I should be looking for that sounds somewhat natural? Or any other advice is welcome...

If it comes down to it I'll record a new snare track and line it up... ugh..
I would work with the snare track you have. At least it is unique. Compression and EQ can go A LONG WAY. Make it work for the song.
Old 26th May 2006 | Show parent
  #46
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Produceher
1. Great drummers never break sticks, cymbals or go through heads each day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso
That is such absolute bolony (of which I've read much on this thread so far).
I agree on the cymbals, but plenty of good drummers trash both sticks and heads.
It depends what weight sticks they are using, how much they are shafting the hi-hats, how thin the heads are. Thinner heads are GREAT for recording, but often need to be changed at least daily..
I still stand by my original statement.

I've probably recorded somewhere between 300 to 500 drummers in my career.

And IMHO, the best of them (not the good ones) never broke cymbals, sticks and didn't leave severe dents in the skins.

I've recorded many "good" drummers who did have some excessive hitting problems.

I still got great sounds out of the drums despite the fact that they hadn't mastered their instrument.

The great studio drummers never seem to have these problems, and just because some of you feel the need to point out the exception to the rule or have the misfortune of having to record good drummers instead of great ones, does not change this fact.

As a general rule: Hitting harder than absolutely necessary is a waste of energy, shows your inability to understand your instrument and gives you diminishing returns on the sounds that your instrument produces.

You don't have to agree with me.

Whenever people agree with me, I always feel I must be wrong.
Old 26th May 2006 | Show parent
  #47
Harmless Wacko
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Produceher
I still stand by my original statement.

I've probably recorded somewhere between 300 to 500 drummers in my career.

And IMHO, the best of them (not the good ones) never broke cymbals, sticks and didn't leave severe dents in the skins.

I've recorded many "good" drummers who did have some excessive hitting problems.

I still got great sounds out of the drums despite the fact that they hadn't mastered their instrument.

The great studio drummers never seem to have these problems, and just because some of you feel the need to point out the exception to the rule or have the misfortune of having to record good drummers instead of great ones, does not change this fact.

As a general rule: Hitting harder than absolutely necessary is a waste of energy, shows your inability to understand your instrument and gives you diminishing returns on the sounds that your instrument produces.

You don't have to agree with me.

Whenever people agree with me, I always feel I must be wrong.
No. No. No.

Bogus. Hogwash. Bull****.

Smoke and mirrors.

Slidums and knobbies pocket pencil protector stylee speak.

Nerd.

Nerd.

Nerd.

Kill the nerd.

The nerd hath missed the point.

30 feet between the bottom of afformentioned point and the top of gleaming nerd coconut.

GREAT ROCK DRUMMING is about something that transends all your knob-twisting 'recordability' nincompoopery.

Once again, the GS nerdnick all-star panel his confused PERFECTION and UNIFORMITY. This is why they are geek-wizard floaters eating banana eclairs in front of pile of silicon, plastic and metal, and not ROCK GODS flailing as if possessed in live room.

These are the same class of cretins/brain surgeons who ELIMINATED THE MIDRANGE FROM THE KICK DRUM, forever robbing rock players of one of the MAIN METHODS OF MUSICAL EXPRESSION.

"Hey.... we needed the room in the midrange for other stuff...."

*Voice of robot from Lost in Space*

ENEMY OF DRUMS.

ENEMY OF DRUMMERS.

DANGER.

DANGER.

DANGER.

Destroy.


ZZZZZZZZZtttttttttt.


SM.
Old 26th May 2006 | Show parent
  #48
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by slipperman
No. No. No.

Bogus. Hogwash. Bull****.

Smoke and mirrors.

Slidums and knobbies pocket pencil protector stylee speak.

Nerd.

Nerd.

Nerd.

Kill the nerd.

The nerd hath missed the point.

30 feet between the bottom of afformentioned point and the top of gleaming nerd coconut.

GREAT ROCK DRUMMING is about something that transends all your knob-twisting 'recordability' nincompoopery.

Once again, the GS nerdnick all-star panel his confused PERFECTION and UNIFORMITY. This is why they are geek-wizard floaters eating banana eclairs in front of pile of silicon, plastic and metal, and not ROCK GODS flailing as if possessed in live room.

These are the same class of cretins/brain surgeons who ELIMINATED THE MIDRANGE FROM THE KICK DRUM, forever robbing rock players of one of the MAIN METHODS OF MUSICAL EXPRESSION.

"Hey.... we needed the room in the midrange for other stuff...."

*Voice of robot from Lost in Space*

ENEMY OF DRUMS.

ENEMY OF DRUMMERS.

DANGER.

DANGER.

DANGER.

Destroy.


ZZZZZZZZZtttttttttt.


SM.
You're my hero Slipperman.
Old 26th May 2006 | Show parent
  #49
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by slipperman
These are the same class of cretins/brain surgeons who ELIMINATED THE MIDRANGE FROM THE KICK DRUM
Actually, Elliot Scheiner is too blameheh .

Greetings,
Dirk
Old 26th May 2006 | Show parent
  #50
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toolskid's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I'll vary my level of poundage according to the song and how it sounds in the room. A lot of the time you can talk over what I'm playing, if the vibe of the track needs some thumping, I'll thump tho and make the room work too!!!!. Slippy is dead on with 'conviction', its about getting that on tape/disk/ringtone.
Old 26th May 2006 | Show parent
  #51
Lives for gear
 
Roland's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Slippy, if you are talking about "ROCK" drummers can't think of any of them that rock my world as greatest players. Maybe in their own field, still think a lot of them sound like pussies, give me Gadd, Vinnie, Porcaro, Weckl et all these guys know about big sound.

I'd be interested in some skin killer names (as long sa they are not pussy)!

Regards to all


Roland
Old 26th May 2006 | Show parent
  #52
Gear Guru
 
chrisso's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Plenty of great rock drummers.
I'm not into hard rock, but my list would include
1) Prairie Prince - Tubes and Rundgren
2) Budgie - Souxsie and the Banshees
3) Steve Jansen - Japan and David Sylvian

A friend of mine recorded Michael Walden playing with Jeff Beck many years ago. They had to rebuild the kit after every take. He IS NOT A PUSSY.

I agree that really great drummers can pound AND can play quietly to get that big, warm sound.
I just can't agree with any rule that says really great drummers don't break sticks or dent heads. It's just bollox.
Old 26th May 2006 | Show parent
  #53
Lives for gear
 
crypticglobe's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by brendondp
Hang on, this is a thread about choked snares... I offered a tip I've found helpful for extracting the most out of a (problematic) instrument and you think I'm immediately close-minded and "ALWAYS know the best way to play and or sound and you don't need a person that makes his/her living pulling the best sounds/performances out of people to help you be the best you can be..."

C'mon, Steve. We're talking degrees here, and you've approached it from one angle and I've approached it from another. There's probably a lot more similarity in our approaches than not.

See, the examples you use (Beatles, AC/DC, Queen, Nirvana, Aerosmith, Elvis, U2) all have character and individuality in spades. Brian May didn't develop his tone cause some producer or engineer said it would be better by building his own bloody guitar. He decided to build his own bloody guitar and in doing so became one of the most distinctive guitarists of his generation. I can imagine some producer (or engineer - heaven forbid) saying, "Yeah, Brian, that treble boost you've got going is a little bit zingy, and that guitar you're using is a bit crap, don't you think? Why don't you use this Rickenbacker we've got over here..." Where would that leave us?

Or "Edge, don't you think you should lay off the delay for this one..?" Or "Hey Ringo, how 'bout we tape all these heads down here with tape and make 'em real dead sounding - it's easier to get a kick-ass punchy sound".

Unfortunately, all the examples you've used only bolster my original argument for allowing individuality of style, tone and character to come through, rather than supressing it. I love those acts because they don't sound like any one else. And yes, collaboration is great, but George Martin never played drums on any Beatles album I know, nor did Roy Thomas Baker play any solos on any Queen album I know.

As for the person in front of their amp or sitting on their drum stool not being able to objectively critique their own playing and how it sounds to an audience... well, apart fom being total **** (sorry, but it is), I prefer to let the mic tell me what's happening. This may come as a surprise to you, but I can actually listen to a play back and figure out where I rushed ahead, where the playing was a little inconsistent, where the tone of the instrument may not fit the composition, when a mic isn't working or when it needs to be moved a couple of inches. All without a producer or engineer to tell me so.

And when I'm the producer/engineer (like on the album I've just finished), I still work incredibly hard to make sure the character and individuality of the artist comes through as much as possible, and is as representative of their personality rather than mine. Did I suggest things? Did I offer perspectives? Absolutely. But at the end of the day it was her album, her songs, and it's going to be her name on the album that people buy. And she will learn far more by putting her stuff out there as a collection of her person at this particular point in time, than by me putting out something that bears no relation to who she is as a performer. If the performer has ownership of the process and product then they're in a better position to make decisions about where they need to grow and improve instead of always relying on others to tell them what's "good" or not.

Bjork, P.J. Harvey, Beck, Tool, the Strokes, Wilco... where the hell would they be had someone gone, "hey, you should do it this way..." I sure as hell reckon I wouldn't be listening and referencing their work, had they churned out generic crap to suit a producer or engineer. And in those cases, they've chosen people to enhance their individuality, as have the ones you've mentioned.

Steve, I'm sure we agree on lot's of stuff, and I'm not trying to make this personal, but please don't suggest that there aren't those of us (drummers, guitarists, producers, engineers, whatever) who don't work really hard on producing great work, and that we all need someone else to tell us what to do. I try and take on as many new ideas on every session I work on, but I cannot and will not be everything to everyone. Don't like my playing - get someone else. Don't like my producing - get another producer. Don't like the new Tool album - buy something else.

The bands and artists I love have all become influential because they bucked popular trends, not because they followed them. At some stage you have to nail your colours to the mast and be an individual. Pissing around with what every A&R, producer and online music reviewer may think or have an opinion on (and these days, doesn't everybody) is simply a detraction from spending time on making an individual musical (or sonic) statement. Where you choose to put the emphasis will depend on who we work with, but for me, I'm much more interested in producing something unique, rather than something generic.

But again, I'm sure we agree more than may be first apparent.

Cheers to you,

bdp


Ok... let'e be more specific. Here is SPECIFICALLY what I was responding to in your thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by brendondp
Yay!

More engineers telling drummers how to play....


Brendon
And....

Quote:
Originally Posted by brendondp

Of course, none of this will stop engineers trying to tell musicians how to play their instrument, and in doing so rob the character and personality out of the performance.

Brendon

Definitely nothing personal here bro. Just a good discussion. But honestly I think you missed the point I was trying to make.

A great record comes from a collaboration of a GREAT producer and a GREAT Band/artist. By definition a GREAT engineer would immediately recognize that the edge was ON to something cool with his use of delay... because it would have the same effect on him that it has on us!! A great producer/engineer would immediately have the same reaction to Brian Mays guitar sound that we have... MUCHO love, and he would simply do his best to make it translate to tape the way it sounded in the room! Ringo? Fugettabout it. A natural talent... just capture it!

But... I will use U2 as another example. I have heard the story told many times about the recording of the FIRST U2 record. The guys really were not very good players at that point. They have admitted themselves many timees. The collaboration they had with the people they were working with at the time had a real impact on how that record sounded, and a real impact on where they took their "sound".

Just about ANY band Mutt Lange has ever worked with has come out of it with some extra skill sets they did not have before because of the way he is. You can not deny Back in Black.... and they went through fleets of amps before they finally found the ones they all agreed upon. Mutt didn't just take whatever Angus and Malcolm were playing and "go with it". The guys were open to Mutt's input (pretty rare for guitar players), and they spent a LONG time getting it right... and voila... a record was born that is still considered by most as one of the greatest rock records of all time.

There were two points in my post:

1. You can't be truly objective about yourself and you shouldn't be resistent to suggestions from people whose talent you admire. Being resistant to that will put a limitation on your potential as a player/producer/engineer.

2. A GREAT producer/engineer will know when the player is ALREADY onto an amzing sound/tecnique, and also recognize when they aren't. A producer/engineer that falls into a true "Jedi" catagory is one who can take that player who is good, but with a less than stunning tecnique or tone and bring them into the greatness that they are truly capable of....... and leave the artist thinking they thought it up themselves.

I know Michael Wagener on the High End forum once stated that a great producer was about 80% (or so) psychologist. This is completely correct in my opinion.

Anyway... I am sure we do agree on a great many things... and I have no hard feelings of any kind. I just felt like you were saying that engineers and producers should always just STAY out of the artists tone/tecnique and just concentrate on capturing it. As stated above... I politely disagree. I do agree however that it is VERY important as a producer/engineer to be able to recognize when they have it RIGHT to start with and not mess with it. However it's when the collobaration of producer/engineer and talent is REALLY working that the amazing results come. When this relationship is working... even the greats can have something even GREATER squeezed out of them. I have seen this play out (and not play out due to someone not being good at their role) over and over. I stick by my points.

All in good will.

JMTC...


p.s. As to how hard to hit the drums.... I think Slipperman pretty much covered it. There is nothing bad about hitting the drums so hard that they literally are falling apart. In rock and roll... it's usually a great thing! However... all that power combined with poor tecnique will result in a poor result. This (after a phone conversation with the original poster) is the problem he is experiencing. There is no "too hard" if it SOUNDS good. In this case.... it was a tecnique/tuning and drummer unwilling to adapt issue.
Old 26th May 2006 | Show parent
  #54
Lives for gear
 
Fleaman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Produceher
It's not really about hitting too hard.

Most great drummers hit quite hard but don't choke the snare or break sticks or cymbals.

eek. You should never break cymbals.

It really amazes me how drummers don't listen to their instrument.

There is a correct way to hit a drum and a point where more force does not provide better sound.

The universe is really quite perfect in some ways.
1. Great drummers never break sticks, cymbals or go through heads each day.
2. A good driver will never need to replace their clutch in their car.
3. A good power amp will never blow speakers.

Some people consider drums as an exercise to get out frustration.

I'm sorry that you need to record such people.
There are too many variables here. The variables being the size of the sticks, weight and size of cymbals, heads, snare drum sizes/types, etc., how often you rimshot, etc.

> You will break sticks more often if they are too small. Also if you rimshot often and chip the ends on high hats.

> Different snare drums will choke before others. This is also true for toms/kicks.

I have played many different drums/snares over the years and some will choke before others, the differences are AMAZING. In general, a smaller thinner shelled drum will choke long before a larger thicker shell.

The thread starter mentioned that his drummer was breaking 2B's all day long. Well, I have to admit, that is quite a feat. This drummer needs a monster snare, period. He needs
to use the right heads. I have some monster snares and I can really lay into them without choking them.

Obviously Produceher knows what he is talking about...to a point. After that point it gets subjective. He has his opinions, which he's entitled too. And I have mine.

I will totally disagree about the 'never breaking sticks' part. That might work for many types of music, but any loud rock band with a hard hitting rimshot drummer will break sticks. How many and how often varies. I play 5B's and Super 5B's, I hit rimshots through most of the songs in my band and I break sticks, mostly due to rimshots. I'm a small guy that hits fairly hard, but only at about 80% of my capable force.

Different types of music I don't really break sticks. Last stint in a Pop/Rock band (fairly loud, but not foo fighters loud!), I hardly broke any sticks.

Also, I tend to break less sticks in the studio than in rehearsals or live.

But really, once you get into the volumes of very loud rock acts, and a drummer that hits hard enough (with tone) to keep up, you're gonna see broken sticks.



Fleaman
Old 26th May 2006 | Show parent
  #55
Lives for gear
 
Fleaman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by not_so_new
I agree with most of what you say in your post but I disagree about that sticks.

I have (or had until I started pretty serious Yoga) very bad pains in my wrists and hands when playing drums. It gets much worse when I use a pair of sticks that are outside of the norm for me. I play pretty heavy sticks but not logs. If I play small little jazz sticks or big marching snare tree trunks I can not play with any groove or feel and after about 20 minutes the pain in my hands and wrists is almost unbearable.

.
Try the Zildjian Anti-Vibration sticks, with the little rubber cap at the butt end of the stick.

They really work.

Especially if you're playing lots of rimshots.

Downside is they are about 2x more $$ than regular sticks.

Play with an Anti-Vib in one hand and a regular stick in the other....you will feel the difference immediately. The Anti-Vib's really cut down on the stick Vibrations, which of course is better for your wrists.

Bigger sticks vibrate less too.



Fleaman
Old 26th May 2006 | Show parent
  #56
Harmless Wacko
 
🎧 15 years
BTW.

I'm having some fun at Kenny's expense here.

Still a grain of truth in my rants, I suspect...

Anyhoo.

Nothing beats thrashing the living tar out of a drumkit.

XOXOXO

Slippy

PS. Roland. The 70's are over.... Don't bother me with that 'jazz and fusion elitist' idiocy. You've got a lot to learn about drums if you can't find STUPENDOUS players in the rock genre. Sorry mate, but some of the best players in the world would gladly agree with that assessment. They are smart enough to realize that rock music ain't ALL about vocabulary. It's also a form that some of the supposed 'technical wizards' of the craft can't muster convincingly with a pistol to the old noggin. Been there. Lived it. Seen it with me own eyeballs. Hoiyd it wit me own earzies.

In any event.

Get off the pulpit, we need the wood for your "Visigoth Housewarming Party".
Old 26th May 2006 | Show parent
  #57
Lives for gear
 
not_so_new's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleaman
Try the Zildjian Anti-Vibration sticks, with the little rubber cap at the butt end of the stick.

They really work.

Especially if you're playing lots of rimshots.

Downside is they are about 2x more $$ than regular sticks.

Play with an Anti-Vib in one hand and a regular stick in the other....you will feel the difference immediately. The Anti-Vib's really cut down on the stick Vibrations, which of course is better for your wrists.

Bigger sticks vibrate less too.



Fleaman
I love 'm. That is what I play 90% of the time. The other 10 % I use good sticks with the same size and weight and then use some stick wrap, it gets me almost there (the anti-vib sticks are still better).

Thanks man.
Old 26th May 2006 | Show parent
  #58
Lives for gear
 
not_so_new's Avatar
Wait.. scratch the above, I was talking about the dip sticks (which I love). I will try the anti-vibration sticks now (yes they are pretty expensive).
Old 26th May 2006 | Show parent
  #59
Lives for gear
 
Fleaman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by not_so_new
Wait.. scratch the above, I was talking about the dip sticks (which I love). I will try the anti-vibration sticks now (yes they are pretty expensive).
The cheapest place is musiciansfriend. Do a print-out and take it to G. center, they will match the price (otherwise they won't...for some strange reason).

Wrap the anti-vib's for the ultimate in stick dampening

Fleaman
Old 26th May 2006 | Show parent
  #60
Deleted 6f6e2d3
Guest
Great epitaph:

"Played Too Hard"
πŸ“ Reply

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