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What to do when a client want to mix their song ???
Old 18th May 2006 | Show parent
  #31
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paterno's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by daryllh
most of us wouldn't be here if it was for the money. There is a difference in doing something that a client wants (making more money) and doing something that might not make the client happy.

I am sure we all would want to be left alone mixing but sometimes you gotta do some customer service.
Not sure I understand what you mean here. I guess my point was that if you are taking a gig soley for the $$$, and not any other reason -- you like the music, or the artist, or something about the project -- you are not going to have a good time doing it. And that just leads to a bad vibe sooner or later.

Let's face it -- it's one thing if you are around these people for 7 or 8 hours a day, with weekends off. It's another when they are 14 hour days, 6 or 7 days a week, for weeks in a row. The frustration will come out at some point, and it's not good for anyone involved.

I actually insist on being left alone to get a mix going. And I state it clearly up front. Based on my years of doing this, there are a few reasons that i do it this way. I like to think that I get a good handle, most of the time, on what the client is expecting before I move the first fader. And from the point I'm ready to let them listen, the clients are very invloved in final stages. i'm not just saying 'here it is. good luck.'

In the end it comes down to communication with the client, keeping the communication open, and understanding what the client wants. If it gets to the point where the client wants a ton of things changed, it may be time to change your concept of what the client is after.

As it was said before, it's their record, not yours.

Cheers,
John
Old 18th May 2006 | Show parent
  #32
Registered User
 
Rick Sutton's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by daryllh
That seems like a bold statement. If it was a killer band, I would be in love with the fact that I find a happy medium. Your version seems to say 'it's my way or the highway'. Again, as in my previous post, nobody here should be close-minded.
Not exclusively "my way". Just a sane approach that doesn't involve the grief that the original poster is going through. "My way" does involve one or two band members (and sometimes all, if we have developed a solid working relationship during the project) but I state up front that it isn't going to be a free for all. This also helps to limit the participation of girlfriends etc. Remember, pleading for sanity at the front of the project can have the added benefit of seeing how a band reacts and both parties can open a dialog that will ultimately benefit the project. Even if it means "the highway". That rarely happens, but when it does, it's probably for the best.

Flexibility is always required. What is not required is that everyone, on every project, has to be at the mixes. If that doesn't work for you and your clients, fine. It works here.
Old 18th May 2006 | Show parent
  #33
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by paterno
Not sure I understand what you mean here. I guess my point was that if you are taking a gig soley for the $$$, and not any other reason -- you like the music, or the artist, or something about the project -- you are not going to have a good time doing it. And that just leads to a bad vibe sooner or later.

I actually insist on being left alone to get a mix going. And I state it clearly up front. There are a few reasons that i do it this way. I like to think that I get a good handle, most of the time, on what the client is expecting before I move the first fader. And from the point I'm ready to let them listen, the client is very invloved in final stages. i'm not just saying 'here it is. good luck.'


Let's face it -- it's one thing if you are around these people for 7 or 8 hours a day, with weekends off. It's another when they are 14 hour days, 6 or 7 days a week, for weeks in a row. The frustration will come out at some point, and it's not good for anyone involved.

In the end it comes down to communication with the client, keeping the communication open, and understanding what the client wants. If it gets to the point where the client wants a ton of things changed, it may be time to change your concept of what the client is after.

As it was said before, it's their record, not yours.

Cheers,
John
I got ya John. I understand where you are coming from. We are probably looking at similar takes.

I usually tell the client to 'not bother me for the first part of the mix session. Let me do my thing and so on. Once the band comes in and listens, I am totally open to suggestions.

Correct in your statement. I found myself doing things for money and it has burned me everytime. Pardon me whole-heartedly if I took what you said the wrong way.

rock on \m/

daryll
Old 18th May 2006 | Show parent
  #34
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
I'll tell you what: speaking as a producer, if I told an engineer that I was going to do the mix, and the room was paid for, and the engineer started in with half of the comments or nonsense that have come up in this thread, I'd be in a new room with a new engineer in about as long as it took me to find my cell phone.

It depends on the situation, of course, but the money makes the decisions. If you don't make it clear up front that the only way you'll take money from a client is if you get final recall on the mixes (which is, in effect, what is being proffered in some of these replies), then you really just need to sit there and run the patchbay while they write fader moves.

If you think you're always right and the band is always wrong, think about the Stooges first album. The producer (John Cale) had his mixes shelved, and the album we all know was then mixed a second time by Iggy Pop and Jac Holzman (president of Elektra.) John Cale may be remembered for a lot of things, but mixing the first punk record isn't one of them.
Old 18th May 2006 | Show parent
  #35
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catfish11's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
if they had previously recorded a cd before, that they said sucked, have them bring it in, listen w them and tell them what you would do differently, communicate

mix one of their songs when they arent around,
give to them, after they mix it first, if you are better, it wont
be an issue, right?
Old 18th May 2006 | Show parent
  #36
Registered User
 
Rick Sutton's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by paterno

I actually insist on being left alone to get a mix going. And I state it clearly up front.
Ditto. And highly recommended.
If not left alone, at least not interuppted.
Old 18th May 2006
  #37
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uptheoctave's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I simply say 'Listen guys, this is my room and I spend 60 hours here a week. I know what works and what doesn't and if you want your mixes to travel then you'll have to trust me.
I'm here to help you, you've told me what you want and I'll deliver it as well as I can and within your budget.
You can't mix in this room because you don't know it well enough.
It isn't about making it sound good here- although it will- it is about getting the balance right so it sounds good in a car, on TV, in a club, on a computer, in mono- that involves compromises- I can get that balance but you have to trust me- do you trust me or not?"

If the answer is yes then I either kick them out, and do the mix or I let them stay s long as they mostly keep quiet. So far no-one has said no.
If they did then I'd like to think I'd give them the raw files and refund 1/2 their money.

JR
Old 18th May 2006 | Show parent
  #38
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Sutton
Not exclusively "my way". Just a sane approach that doesn't involve the grief that the original poster is going through. "My way" does involve one or two band members (and sometimes all, if we have developed a solid working relationship during the project) but I state up front that it isn't going to be a free for all. This also helps to limit the participation of girlfriends etc. Remember, pleading for sanity at the front of the project can have the added benefit of seeing how a band reacts and both parties can open a dialog that will ultimately benefit the project. Even if it means "the highway". That rarely happens, but when it does, it's probably for the best.

Flexibility is always required. What is not required is that everyone, on every project, has to be at the mixes. If that doesn't work for you and your clients, fine. It works here.
I see. That's cool.

I also hate the small voice from the couch after everybody is groovin on a 'final mix'.

'What would the vocals sound like if they sounded far away?' 'Can you do that phone thing with the singer?'

I guess i was looking at your statement as more of a hard-ass approach. I now know where you are sitting with your theories. I would probably agree with more of them now.

I take for granted that being more of a tracking guy, I find myself in a closer relationship with the band when it comes to mixing. My chops aren't tight enough to consider myself a 'mixing engineer'. When I do mix, it's for a band I have slaved with over the course of a week. We know each other and are comfortable with telling it like it is.
Old 18th May 2006 | Show parent
  #39
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crandall1
I'll tell you what: speaking as a producer, if I told an engineer that I was going to do the mix, and the room was paid for, and the engineer started in with half of the comments or nonsense that have come up in this thread, I'd be in a new room with a new engineer in about as long as it took me to find my cell phone.

It depends on the situation, of course, but the money makes the decisions. If you don't make it clear up front that the only way you'll take money from a client is if you get final recall on the mixes (which is, in effect, what is being proffered in some of these replies), then you really just need to sit there and run the patchbay while they write fader moves.

If you think you're always right and the band is always wrong, think about the Stooges first album. The producer (John Cale) had his mixes shelved, and the album we all know was then mixed a second time by Iggy Pop and Jac Holzman (president of Elektra.) John Cale may be remembered for a lot of things, but mixing the first punk record isn't one of them.
Thanks Chris. You are a touch of my voice of reason.

I came from a career that included a job as an intern, assistant and staffer at a commercial studio. I learned a lot about money and covering the costs of the business in that time. What you said rings true for that instance. I still try to abide by those rules.
Old 18th May 2006 | Show parent
  #40
Registered User
 
Rick Sutton's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crandall1
I'll tell you what: speaking as a producer, if I told an engineer that I was going to do the mix, and the room was paid for, and the engineer started in with half of the comments or nonsense that have come up in this thread, I'd be in a new room with a new engineer in about as long as it took me to find my cell phone.
I don't remember reading that this was about a producer wanting to do the mix. Completely different scenario than what is being discussed here. When a single party, or even a group of reasonable, like minded people, wants to do the mix and want me to assist that is more than fine. Hell that's easy money. You're dealing with one vision not 5 or 6. But when a group wants to impress their individual wills (often contradictory) upon a mix, that is a potential for a situation that serves no one and certainly doesn't serve the music. That is what is being discussed here. At least, that's what I'm responding to.
Old 18th May 2006 | Show parent
  #41
MDM
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MDM's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I think this is an important issue to talk about - Good you brought it up ! - And interesting to see different 'answers' and statements...

However, there are some bottomlines here which are quite simple :

Some engineers / producers can afford to say certain things and others don't - tough but true ... Like Crandall said ... get his cellphone , and get another one..

Well - When I hire an engineer, I hire him, because he'd be the right guy for the job ! ( Speaking as a producer, which my job is ) - So, if I am a 'good producer' ( someone who assures the workflow in a production is happening ) I will workt things out , make sure I get the righ guy for the right job...
BTW, most engineers that I have met, especially succesful ones, are very flexible people - it is part of the job-description .. Engineers seem to have developed a way of being out of the way, which they need also to protect themselves...

Another thing: Somtimes work isn't fun.
Some music sucks but you still do it because you need to eat.
Some singers are SO annoying - but you got to work with them and make the best out of it.
Sometimes, in also means your credit has to be on it - especially if you produce an alnum, you can't say in the end : uh, I dont want the credit because I think tha album sucks !
No you can't... It doesnt really matter anyway, because the moment, something really good quality comes out of your hands/studio, THAT is what people will hear and THAT is what's gonna help you get work ..
The things that are not good more will just dissappear in the endless stream of unimportant and stupid productions that never see daylight really .....

Motto : Don't worry ! -- It's about communication and positions .. If you get hired, well, what to do ! You've got to work with it .. Wether you're the producer or the engineer.
BTW as a producer you're also eating **** from the artist all the time - you'll have to also translate the band ...

Last : Everybody in the studio wants to be HEARD - People want to hear their ideas tried out. If you shut them down, they'll get nervous & even hurt and the atmosphere will get so bad you can't even make a proper mix anymore yourself...
It's so sensitive - musicians, producers, engineers ... teamwork too the max !!!

Hope my long babble is of any help.
Old 18th May 2006 | Show parent
  #42
Gear Maniac
 
exfakto's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crandall1
If you think you're always right and the band is always wrong, think about the Stooges first album. The producer (John Cale) had his mixes shelved, and the album we all know was then mixed a second time by Iggy Pop and Jac Holzman (president of Elektra.) John Cale may be remembered for a lot of things, but mixing the first punk record isn't one of them.
Its not That Im right and the band is wrong, I was all open tot heir suggestions and a few things did improve like kick and snare. But when the client want to boost 16db at 400hz on the guitar, boost another 10 db at 425hz on bass and even add EQ to the reverbes low end all you get is an extremely amount of muuuuush that cant be played anywhere. this would of been fine ten years ago when I started, i didnt have any experience or anything but I have a booked calendar all the way to the end of August. Alot of people like the way I work and trust me in taking care of their sound, Im just kinda afraid this will bring some sort of negative feedback on my name and my studio.

But listen when I say, I do listen to them, I listen to every little suggestion as awful as it may be and execute it on the mix. I really apreciate alot of answers here. Thanks alot!
Old 18th May 2006 | Show parent
  #43
Gear Maniac
 
exfakto's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Sutton
You're dealing with one vision not 5 or 6. But when a group wants to impress their individual wills (often contradictory) upon a mix, that is a potential for a situation that serves no one and certainly doesn't serve the music. That is what is being discussed here. At least, that's what I'm responding to.

Thats exactly my problem, but were working on it. thumbsup
Old 18th May 2006 | Show parent
  #44
Gear Maniac
 
exfakto's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDM
Motto : Don't worry ! -- It's about communication and positions .. If you get hired, well, what to do ! You've got to work with it .. Wether you're the producer or the engineer.
BTW as a producer you're also eating **** from the artist all the time - you'll have to also translate the band ...

Last : Everybody in the studio wants to be HEARD - People want to hear their ideas tried out. If you shut them down, they'll get nervous & even hurt and the atmosphere will get so bad you can't even make a proper mix anymore yourself...
It's so sensitive - musicians, producers, engineers ... teamwork too the max !!!

Hope my long babble is of any help.
Its like you said, its all about team work, and believe it or not, this si teamwork right here. Thanks!
Old 18th May 2006 | Show parent
  #45
Gear Maniac
 
exfakto's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nlc201
It's tough to be very diplomatic in this situation sometimes, but there's usually a compromise in there somewhere. If things just aren't happening, try this:


I assume this is a multi-day venture so they'll probably be coming back the next day. Let them do their ****ty mix, print it, let them take it home, etc. After they leave, do a mix yourself the way YOU think it should be done. Print it and put it in a DAW session with their mix (or the DAW multitrack for that matter) and set it up so that you can A/B the mixes back to back. Maybe throw in a refence CD or two but be sure to include something that THEY like (IE, Dio or Chevelle for example). Odds are that your mix will much closer resemble the refs than theirs (don't pick a terrible sounding reference!). When they come back in the next day, tell them, "Hey guys. I was listening to XYZ track after you left yesterday and I really think that it's possible to get a bit more out of the track. Take a listen to this mix I made, don't worry about the studio time for it, I won't charge you." Don't come off as high and mighty or tell them their mix sucked. If you give the impression that you're on their side, working for their benefit, it will help you out much more than being stand-offish.

Then proceed to play your mix. Also ask them to refrain from commenting until they've heard the mix TWICE through. They're going to have a tough time adjusting quickly from the one they're used to so enforce a no comments rule for the first few passes. Then start A/B'ing it with theirs which they should be chomping at the bit to do by this point. Make sure that their mix is not played back louder than yours, otherwise you can get the false "louder sounds better" syndrome. If anything, make yours a dB or so hotter than theirs! Then start bringing in the references, comparing theirs to the refs and yours to the refs. Hopefully by this time at least a band member or two might start to be converted. Don't directly knock their mix, just take something that they did and say, "hey, that verse FX part is really cool.....but check out something like this...." Then play it for them. The key here is not to insult their mix or their ideas but to give the impression that you're enhancing and bringing out the best parts of what THEY did. And that really is the basis of what you're doing for them as an engineer anyways. It's not about you. It's about you helping them.

Obviously they're going to want to do some tweaks and that's cool. That's part of the gig. Don't insult their requests and call them stupid. Find a way to make them work or suggest something different that may get them what they're looking for. Take an idea they have like "put a ton of reverb on the guitar for the whole song" and do something where you automate the send on certain sections/notes to get what they're looking for. Take THEIR idea and run with it. By the end it may be so different that it doesen't even resemble THEIR idea anymore, it's yours. But who cares? Remember, it's not about you. And let go of the concept that all of their ideas are stupid because they don't match your ideas. You'd be surprised that even with all these terrible ideas that they have that one or two are actually pretty cool. Don't have an ego about it just because you didn't think of it. Bottom line is that the band and you are now working together, as a team, on this mix instead of against each other.

I've used this technique several times in sticky situations and it has always led to a better conclusion. The best scenario is that you've now built up some trust between you and them. That was they key thing that was missing with their last engineer that caused them to get paranoid and want to mix it themselves. Once you can get a certain level of trust, the friction will typically lessen drastically. Then you can tell them on the next track, "Hey guys, why don't you all go chill out on the patio/go into town for some coffee/etc. while I set this next mix up. Come back in a few hours and we'll mix the track." And they'll probably go for it. Even though it's obvious that you're not "setting up" the mix but actually MIXING it, it will come accross that they're still involved and in creative control of their project. Which is not altogether untrue. They've simply let go of the need to micro-manage every aspect and let a trusted professional and friend handle certain aspects for them. It's their record. Put aside your ego and find a way to make their vision work. Find solutions, don't fight problems.


The best engineers I've seen seem to exude this mentality. That's why they get a lot of work and make amazing sounding records. 90% of this job is pure psychology......
Tell me about psychology, Its about gaining the clients trust and letting them know Im on their side. At the beginning I was pretty unrestful with all this subject, reading many answers here, specially yours nlc201, have help me relaxed in many ways. Im sitting with them tonight to continue mixing their songs. Ill write back to see how things went. Thanks!
Old 18th May 2006 | Show parent
  #46
Gear Maniac
 
exfakto's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by eyesore
It never will cease to amaze me how dishonest a lot of people in this business are. You'd never get any work from me, and I'll sure never send anyone your way.

Its not being dishonest, its knowing what to do when your on the brink of loosing it. This "project" was supposed to have ended in 3 weeks, im at the end of the third month, and its costing me money and time spent away from my family. Im at the band's best disposal doing everything possible to get what they want, but there's a studio name and my name involved.There are many rock bands here in PR, and their is a huge competition on who sounds better than who and there are 3 studios that they name mostly as being the best in this type of scenario and one of them happens to be mine. The main people that will listen to the band's work are other musicians that have recorded in other studios and the first thing they will ask is "where was this recorded at?". These people know what is a good wuality CD,a bad one and a terrible one. And at the beginning of the process, it was terrible. Yes, terrible thru my eyes (ears), but cool sounding to the band. After reading alot of good replys here I have changed the course of what was going to be a terrible relationship into a useful and productive one. And yes I AM BEING HONEST with my clients as wih all my clients. There's a reason why Im always booked uo tp 3 months in advanced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eyesore
I also suggest you let the band read this wonderful thread, and I bet they will regret they ever worked with you at all. I know I would.
Exactly, they will regret that I went in search of help from other engineers/producers/mixers to help them achive what they want. fuuck

And this "wonderful thread" has helped turn what would of ended up as a sour relationship into a very good one, both sides pleased audiowise and production wise.
Old 18th May 2006 | Show parent
  #47
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AlexLakis's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I worked with a very successful engineer recently on a project where the vast majority of the studio time was spent sitting on the couch talking while the client mixed the songs himself! It was fun times for all, very relaxed, and totally creative. Sometimes "suggestions" would be made along the way, sometimes for the mix, most of the time for the arrangement. After he was done for the mostpart, tweaks would be made (slight level adjustments, bringing all the faders down a bit, etc.)

If the client wants to mix, by all means, you should let them. Offer "advice" along the way, and provide safety nets after the fact. If your ego is too big for that, then send your clients down to me or somebody else who's willing to give the client paying you loads of money what they ask for.
Old 18th May 2006 | Show parent
  #48
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Infernal Device's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I also thought of this...

Do their mix exactly the way they want it. Then keep yours. The next time a band talks about making the mix decisions, break the out the examples.
Old 18th May 2006 | Show parent
  #49
Here for the gear
 
🎧 15 years
make your clients happy. tell them up front that you are there to help them create the sound they want and will do whatever to make them happy but tell them that your policy is that if you mix it you want your name on it. if you don't mix it you don't want your name on it. no offense just the policy.

then chargeby the hour and let them have their way at it.
Old 18th May 2006 | Show parent
  #50
Gear Guru
 
joelpatterson's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by safe as milk
sometimes i'll use a psuedonym when i get really paranoid bout my rep!
I hear you, Mr. Milk.
Old 18th May 2006
  #51
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jackinthebox's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by exfakto
Im sure it has happened many times before to many of you. You record a band and get a spectacular sound, spend hours setting up, moving mics around the room, and all that stuff. When everything is finished you do a mix of the songs with your clients, in your mind you going "this has to be one of my best mixes ever, everything is in place and perfectly balanced". Then the bands says "can we mix the song ? and a dark cloud starts to gloom over. You say "Yeah sure, go ahead" saving the previouse project just in case. They start mixing the song, telling you to add more EQ, more effects,a whole bunch of other **** the song doesnt need and they seem to love it. All i hear is this awful amount of "mush" and piercing highs and unbalanced level of instruments.

I tell them that their song will not sound very good when burned to CD, its too over processed. But they dont care. The problem here is MY STUDIOS'S NAME IS GOING TO BE ON THE CREDITS, when people ask where was it recorded they are going to say my name!!!

I know that the clients are paying for this, at the end its what the client wants not what I want. Ive tried to talk to them in many cases but they think that their mix is the **** and mine isnt. Any suggestions here? Thanks alot!

IMHO there are different kinds of mixes which could equally valid, just different. Engineers or mixers sometimes have a particular style which might be why you chose them to mix your record. To expect them to make it sound like your vision would be unfair. The other factor is what is actually tracked to begin with. If the guitars weren't bright enough you try and eq it in, your phase goes out tthe window annd the whole mix starts to flatten out and end up two dimensional. I have had issues with guitar players who want a particular tone, having spent thousands on gear but not understanding that how you hit thew strings to begin with, is most of the tone. I've also had bass players wanting more top end bite but who've never learnt to play with a pick. Drummers who want a brighter harder snare sound who haven't hit their snare hard enough and didn't use a piccolo or whatever. Every stage of the recording adds to what the finished mix will be and the more you can explain this honestly to your client the more they will understand the process of making records and hopefully the more they can improve their craft. I find that when you start talking about phase shift most musicians will believe you and let you get the on with it. Also explaining that a great big pair of genelecs or whatever, don't sound like hi fi speakers and that unless you're in the correct listening position, and you know the spaeakers, it's really hard to be objective. I myself find it hard to understand a mix on certain speakers.
If a musician has a particular idea in mind, by all means try it out. But be prepared to explain exactly why you think it doesn't work. If it's fighting with the vocal or whatever. Ego between bannd members is usually the problem. There's only so much music you can fit in a mix and there has to be a balance. If you turn up the guitars you can't hear the bass etc. if you turn up the vocal you can't hear the guitars. You know what i mean. Sometimes their suggestions are valid and will bring out something you hadn't thought of.
One interesting story i heard which may be relevant is Alan Parson who recorded Dark side of the moon for Pink Floyd, to this day hates Chris Thomas's mix, which went on to sell more copies than practically any other record in history.
Another was Tears for Fears sending off Seeds of Love or whatevewr the album was called, tyo be mixed, and it coming back so completely different from what they'd imagined they weren't sure whether to get it mixed by someone else or not. They ended up going with the first mix and again, massive number one album.
Different strokes for different folks.
heh
Old 18th May 2006 | Show parent
  #52
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88fingerz's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
It's possible that somewhere along the line you either lost their confidence or didn't instill it quite enough from the outset.

Burn ALL their files to a DVD and politely show them the door.

You don't need the mix that THEY Do hitting the streets with your name anywhere on it.

Your repuataion is at stake here so be careful!

This was a pricelss lesson for you and other young engineers who read this forum. There's the silver lining!

πŸ“ Reply
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