Quantcast
Examples of Overproduced Songs/Albums - Page 5 - Gearspace.com
The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
Examples of Overproduced Songs/Albums
Old 28th April 2007 | Show parent
  #121
Lives for gear
 
brendondp's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by zaczac ➑️
Not trying to have a go at anyone, I just find it an interesting point to debate.
I guess though, I'm the kinda guy who looks at a thread like this and asks "What can possibly be the outcome of such a debate?"

It's only interesting to those who really think they have a definitve position to take. Which, in my mind, is totally irrelevant in regard to both the process and product in question.

If you weren't there for the making of Seal's album, and you didn't buy the album, what really does it matter what your opinion of it is? Sharing your opinion on it ("I think it's overproduced") can't alter the process - you weren't inolved in the process, therefore you weren't in a position to ever change the outcome (make it "less-produced") so why bother commenting on it? If you didn't buy the album, then the only person that's influenced in any way is you, because you buying or not buying the album has no effect on the four million other people who have.

Even if you manage to gain consensus - "Yes, Seal's first album is over-produced" - then all you've managed to do is create a self-referential post-tribal ideology grounded in the belief that "the more people concur, the more "right" I am". (In other words, an ultimately futile attempt at community.)

Pointless.

The only time a judgement call is relevant on whether an album may be over-produced or not is:

A) During the production of the album (involving only those present at the time)
B) When deciding to purchase the album (involving consumer discretion)
C) In order to feel like ones' opinion is important and attempt to enter into (false) community with other human beings.

There's a thread on Avril Lavigne at the moment. Equally pointless. But that certainly hasn't stopped people posting. Nor has it prevented her from making the album, not people buying it. It just makes for some light entertainment for people who believe that posting an opinion on the internet is of some relevance.

Which is a whole 'nother thread in itself.

Cheers to all,

bdp
Old 28th April 2007 | Show parent
  #122
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by brendondp ➑️
Oh man...I kinda hoped the following posts - y'know, the one's where I said close-miking a brass section is "over-producing" - would have indicated the use of sarcasm to illustrate the point, but I see next time I may have to resort to using emoticons to ensure the message is recieved in its intended form.
Ha, yeah I always use a healthy dose of silly smilies to reinforce sarcasm. I assure you, your joke didn't go unnoticed, your post was simply an easy reference, and you didn't seem like the type to take things too seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brendondp ➑️
Sharing your opinion on it ("I think it's overproduced") can't alter the process - you weren't inolved in the process, therefore you weren't in a position to ever change the outcome (make it "less-produced") so why bother commenting on it?

Even if you manage to gain consensus - "Yes, Seal's first album is over-produced" - then all you've managed to do is create a self-referential post-tribal ideology grounded in the belief that "the more people concur, the more "right" I am". (In other words, an ultimately futile attempt at community.)

Pointless.

The only time a judgement call is relevant on whether an album may be over-produced or not is:

A) During the production of the album (involving only those present at the time)
B) When deciding to purchase the album (involving consumer discretion)
C) In order to feel like ones' opinion is important and attempt to enter into (false) community with other human beings.

...It just makes for some light entertainment for people who believe that posting an opinion on the internet is of some relevance.
Cheers to all,
(abbreviated)

Well written, and I agree (really). The only difference is that I have no problem with "light entertainment" via the expression of useless opinion. This thread isn't important to me, but it's been an entertaining distraction today, even though I believe it's all subjective.

Well, I think I've said enough on this topic, time to find another time waster. See you on the Avril thread ...

(joke...)
Old 28th April 2007 | Show parent
  #123
Lives for gear
 
brendondp's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by zaczac ➑️
Well, I think I've said enough on this topic, time to find another time waster. See you on the Avril thread ...

(joke...)
BAH-dum-PIIIIIIIISSSSH!

bdp
Old 28th April 2007 | Show parent
  #124
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Examples of overproduced records? The first 3 or 4 records I was allowed to produce. You know, when I was concerned about such things as putting my production signature on things and having them rise to "my level" rather than just getting the fnck out of the way. I can't even listen to them.

Level of production is about what works for the project. Are Beck records overproduced? I love those records. Is Pavement underproduced? I love those records.

And BTW, I think some people mix up over-produced and over-mastered/mixed. Which usually means over use of compression causing lifelessness. Especially with big label stuff, there's a lot of cooks in the Kitchen.
Old 28th April 2007 | Show parent
  #125
Lives for gear
 
David Herbert's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
So...
I wanted to find out if there was any kind of consensus on the topic of overproduced albums. There is some consensus on the topic of best produced albums, with people frequently mentioning DSOTM and Steeley Dan. Is it a subjective question? Yes. Is it impossible to give a constructive answer? No.
I like OVERNIGHT's response because it leads my brain in a couple of directions:
1. Overcompression as a culprit. Good thing to watch out for.
2. OVERNIGHT mentioned his own mixes. Great, perfect illustration: I know I have overproduced a few songs here and there, and that is what I would like to avoid. So for those of you who think it's impossible to overproduce a song, I suggest you listen back to your own work, then give a further opinion. If anyone hasn't ever overcooked a song I would love for them to stand up and be counted.
David
Old 29th April 2007 | Show parent
  #126
Lives for gear
 
brendondp's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Herbert ➑️
So...
I wanted to find out if there was any kind of consensus on the topic of overproduced albums. There is some consensus on the topic of best produced albums, with people frequently mentioning DSOTM and Steeley Dan. Is it a subjective question? Yes. Is it impossible to give a constructive answer? No.
I like OVERNIGHT's response because it leads my brain in a couple of directions:
1. Overcompression as a culprit. Good thing to watch out for.
There are many overcompressed albums that could be subjectively described as overproduced, but it's certainly not true that all overproduced albums are overcompressed. Overcompression has its advocates and dissenters, and this subject (and its first cousin - heavily limited mixes and masters) has been well covered ("over-covered"?) in many, many other threads.

Personally, I don't see how overcompression is in any way a definitve variable on whether an album may or may not be overproduced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Herbert ➑️
2. OVERNIGHT mentioned his own mixes. Great, perfect illustration: I know I have overproduced a few songs here and there, and that is what I would like to avoid. So for those of you who think it's impossible to overproduce a song, I suggest you listen back to your own work, then give a further opinion. If anyone hasn't ever overcooked a song I would love for them to stand up and be counted.
David
Because the parties involved in making the album are the only ones for whom the question of whether or not overproducing has occured is ever relevant.

If the producer and artists are happy with the end result then what more needs to be discussed?

If you're not happy with the album you've made then the options are:

A) Change it.
B) Live with it and learn from your mistakes.

However, I have to say that the thread did not start with an example of someone's own work that was overproduced - it started with examples of other artist's work that was considered overproduced.

Unless you happen to have worked on "Use Your Illusion" or "Sailing the Seas of Cheese" then I fail to see how mentioning those albums is of any relevance to this thread.

If Bob Ezrin wants to show up on this thread and say he thinks he overproduced "The Wall" then that's certainly his perogative.

However, I see absolutely no validity in me posting whether I think he did or not - my opinion is simply redundant in this regard.

Cheers,

bdp
Old 29th April 2007 | Show parent
  #127
Lives for gear
 
brendondp's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Herbert ➑️
I know I have overproduced a few songs here and there, and that is what I would like to avoid. So for those of you who think it's impossible to overproduce a song, I suggest you listen back to your own work, then give a further opinion. If anyone hasn't ever overcooked a song I would love for them to stand up and be counted.
David
Then I suggest you follow your own advice and do exactly that.

That would certainly be more constructive than mentioning albums in which your involvement in the process was ZERO.

Cheers again,

bdp
Old 29th April 2007 | Show parent
  #128
Lives for gear
 
haryy's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
My question is:overproduced is a term about good songs or bad songs?
Because if we are talking about good songs (hits) then we might consider that the overproduction was needed in order for the songs to sound good from the first place.
So,is it only about bad songs (or not successful ones?).I wonder..
Old 30th April 2007 | Show parent
  #129
Lives for gear
 
David Herbert's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote from brendondp:

"Personally, I don't see how overcompression is in any way a definitve variable on whether an album may or may not be overproduced."

Response:

I haven't suggested that it is. It works the other way for me. I hear a song that sounds overproduced and I ask myself, "Why does this sound overproduced?". At that point I would start to examine specific elements such as overcompression, too much of a grid feel, too much copy/pasting. I think of overcompression as a possible symptom as opposed to a definitive sign.

Quote from brendondp:

"Then I suggest you follow your own advice and do exactly that.

That would certainly be more constructive than mentioning albums in which your involvement in the process was ZERO."

Response:

I do find listening back to my old work instructive. I am suggesting (prompted by OVERNIGHT's observation about his own work) that those who don't believe in/can't identify overproduction listen to THEIR own work and find out if that's helpful.
I try to avoid mistakes made by others. If I don't dissect their work and try to identify their mistakes (given that the definition of a mistake can be subjective), how can I do that?

Quote from brendondp:

"Because the parties involved in making the album are the only ones for whom the question of whether or not overproducing has occured is ever relevant.

If the producer and artists are happy with the end result then what more needs to be discussed?"

Response:

Well, a label or financial backers may have some opinions that weigh in. Some percentage of the listening public will develop an opinion. The opinion of potential purchasers may prove crucial.

I respect the opinions of other people who are making music and enjoy discussing topics related to music and music production. Gearslutz is a great online community for doing just that. The opinions of the folks who have taken the time to post in this topic are valuable to me.
If you don't think this topic is worth discussing, why are you posting on it?
If you don't think the opinions of anyone posting in this topic (ei. people that are not Bob Ezrin) are relevant, why are you reading it?

Cheers,
David
Old 30th April 2007 | Show parent
  #130
Lives for gear
 
brendondp's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Herbert ➑️
Quote from brendondp:

"Personally, I don't see how overcompression is in any way a definitve variable on whether an album may or may not be overproduced."

Response:

I haven't suggested that it is. It works the other way for me. I hear a song that sounds overproduced and I ask myself, "Why does this sound overproduced?". At that point I would start to examine specific elements such as overcompression, too much of a grid feel, too much copy/pasting. I think of overcompression as a possible symptom as opposed to a definitive sign.
What you said was:

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Herbert ➑️
1. Overcompression as a culprit. Good thing to watch out for.
Overcompression (just like radical EQing, phase shifts, distortion, pitch shifting etc) is not symptomatic of overproducing. Are the blitzed room mics on Climbing Up the Walls off OK Computer "symptomatic" of that album being overproduced?

It'll depend on your opinion. And because that's all it's dependent on, since you didn't produce that album, I can't see how passing judgement on it is of any value.

Overcompression can be symptomatic of inexperience or oversight, but as a deliberately applied artistic decision, that's the perogative of any producer of musician to use or not use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Herbert ➑️
Quote from brendondp:

"Then I suggest you follow your own advice and do exactly that.

That would certainly be more constructive than mentioning albums in which your involvement in the process was ZERO."

Response:

I do find listening back to my old work instructive. I am suggesting (prompted by OVERNIGHT's observation about his own work) that those who don't believe in/can't identify overproduction listen to THEIR own work and find out if that's helpful.
I try to avoid mistakes made by others. If I don't dissect their work and try to identify their mistakes (given that the definition of a mistake can be subjective), how can I do that?
Because whether it is a mistake or not IS ENTIRELY SUBJECTIVE!

One person will think the blitzed room mics on the above mentioned track is a result of overproduction - another will say it's part of pushing an artisitic envelope and creating a sonic palette to aid in the delivery of the song.

Your opinion may be that Radiohead and Nigel Godrich made a "mistake" on that track by allowing the room mics on the drums to be "overcompressed", and that if you had been producing you wouldn't have done that - but that's totally and utterly irrelevant because you were not the producer of that album.

If you decide you don't like crushing the room mics that much, then fine. On the next album you produce don't use that effect. But just because you don't like it and choose not to use it still doesn't mean that OK Computer is overproduced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Herbert ➑️
Quote from brendondp:

"Because the parties involved in making the album are the only ones for whom the question of whether or not overproducing has occured is ever relevant.

If the producer and artists are happy with the end result then what more needs to be discussed?"

Response:

Well, a label or financial backers may have some opinions that weigh in. Some percentage of the listening public will develop an opinion. The opinion of potential purchasers may prove crucial.
Absolutely a label and financial backers will have some opinions. I imagine the artist's manager and promoter may well have opinons too. And they are completely valid in determining whether an album is being overproduced or not.

The potential purchasers opinions are not relevant in the making of the album (whether it is overproduced or not) - their opinions are only relevant in regard to its commercial success. And from where I stand there is absolutely no correlation whatsoever between "overproduced albums" and "financial success".

Consumers don't get to share their opinions during the making of the album because for everyone one person who thinks the crushed room mics on Climbing Up the Walls is way cool, there'll be 40 others lining up to say the exact opposite. "Yeah, I think it should be more country..." "I think it should be more orange...."

It's why allbums are not made by democratic vote and why the label (usually) approaches someone to produce the album in the first place. And if that is not you, then your opinon is irrelevant in regard to any creative production decisions made.


Quote:
Originally Posted by David Herbert ➑️
I respect the opinions of other people who are making music...
Do you? Yet somehow Primus made a huge mistake in making Sailing the Seas of Cheese and Peter Gabriel did the same by making UP...

Because if it was up to you, you most certainly would have done things differently, right?

That's just plain vanity. You were never in a position to make creative decisions on those albums so, again, your opinion on whether or not they were overproduced is irrelevant. It's certainly relevant on whether you like or don't like those decisions, but only in regard to whether you purchase the album or not or like it or not. It's absolutely not relevant in regard to whether it was overproduced or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Herbert ➑️
...and enjoy discussing topics related to music and music production. Gearslutz is a great online community for doing just that. The opinions of the folks who have taken the time to post in this topic are valuable to me.
If you don't think this topic is worth discussing, why are you posting on it?
If you don't think the opinions of anyone posting in this topic (ei. people that are not Bob Ezrin) are relevant, why are you reading it?

Cheers,
David
Because I do think Gearslutz is a hugely valuable online community. And I find it pretty frustrating when its value is undermined by people with nothing better to do but shoot from the hip with egotistical statements about topics for which they can offer nothing but their opinion.

Experience? That's different. I thought it was incredibly interesting that Tchad Blake stated he felt Pearl Jam's Binaural was not wholy satisfactory for him as its producer.

Why do I think that's different? Because only he and the band were ever in the position to under- or overproduce that album.

So I really value the hindsight he brought by stating that the process for him and the band was less than ideal.

But y'know what? If I had started a thread entitled "Tchad Blake keeps fuking up records with his deconstutive production methods" chances are he'd never be open to sharing his experiences as he had. And yes, posts from individuals have pissed off producers, engineers and artists enough that they've turned down opportunites to share their knowledge and experience with us.

Far be it from me to be the Gearslutz thread police, but again, I ask, what is the point of this thread?

If it's a chance for you to get feedback on the albums you've produced, by all means submit your work for our appraisal. If you want to share stories about how one time you overproduced a song or an album and what you'd do differently next time, then go ahead.

But I really don't see how someone listing

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Herbert ➑️
songs or music that sound lifeless due to lack of spontaneous performance, due to injudicious use of overdubbing, gridding, cutting and pasting, etc
can do anything more than deter those same people whose work we so easily crtique from ever coming here.

Head - Brickwall.

Over and out,

bdp
Old 30th April 2007 | Show parent
  #131
Lives for gear
 
David Herbert's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
brendondp,
If we both agree that it's subjective, how can you argue that I and everyone else posting here don't have a right to form and express an opinion? If it's subjective, it's open to interpretation.
Just because I think "Sailing on the Seas of Cheese" is overproduced doesn't mean I think we should make a big bonfire with it. As I said, I respect other people's opinions (and tastes). You obviously don't, or you wouldn't accuse my of vanity for merely expressing my opinions.
For example, I didn't like "Sailing on the Seas of Cheese" nearly as much "Frizzle Fry". To me "Sailing" didn't have the energy of "Fry". "Sailing" sounded a little stale, everything too perfect, too punched in, too overdubbed. Perhaps... overproduced. That's my opinion. If I happen to run into Les Claypool somewhere I'm not going to bash him on the head with a rotting mackerel. While I might mention that I deeply enjoy "Fry" and have since I was 19 and sat stoned in the bassment (heh ) listening to it for hours, I don't think the conversation would get around to me having less love for "Sailing". I would probably be more likely to pump him for stories about Stewart Copeland in any event.
"Sailing" was an extremely successful album for Primus. It went gold and had radio play, and at the same time it was wonderfully offbeat. I would be surprised if any of the people involved are anything but proud of their work. And I fully congratulate them for it.
If I said I liked the production on "Sailing", would you accept that? How would that be any different? By YOUR standard, YOUR opinion about any album you didn't work on (whether positive or negative) wouldn't have any validity.
Les Claypool said the following in Entertainment Weekly (Published in issue #178 Jul 09, 1993), '' *Mr. Bungle Mr. Bungle ''I love these guys. Totally amazing tunes and production.'' *The Police Zenyatta Mondatta ''My favorite Police record, and the best- sounding one.'' That's Les Claypool offering opinions about the production values of albums he didn't work on. Is that wrong?
Again, I have to stand up for the right of people to both develop and express opinions.
David
Old 1st May 2007 | Show parent
  #132
Lives for gear
 
brendondp's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Herbert ➑️
brendondp,
If we both agree that it's subjective, how can you argue that I and everyone else posting here don't have a right to form and express an opinion? If it's subjective, it's open to interpretation.
Just because I think "Sailing on the Seas of Cheese" is overproduced doesn't mean I think we should make a big bonfire with it. As I said, I respect other people's opinions (and tastes). You obviously don't, or you wouldn't accuse my of vanity for merely expressing my opinions.
For example, I didn't like "Sailing on the Seas of Cheese" nearly as much "Frizzle Fry". To me "Sailing" didn't have the energy of "Fry". "Sailing" sounded a little stale, everything too perfect, too punched in, too overdubbed. Perhaps... overproduced. That's my opinion. If I happen to run into Les Claypool somewhere I'm not going to bash him on the head with a rotting mackerel. While I might mention that I deeply enjoy "Fry" and have since I was 19 and sat stoned in the bassment (heh ) listening to it for hours, I don't think the conversation would get around to me having less love for "Sailing". I would probably be more likely to pump him for stories about Stewart Copeland in any event.
"Sailing" was an extremely successful album for Primus. It went gold and had radio play, and at the same time it was wonderfully offbeat. I would be surprised if any of the people involved are anything but proud of their work. And I fully congratulate them for it.
If I said I liked the production on "Sailing", would you accept that? How would that be any different? By YOUR standard, YOUR opinion about any album you didn't work on (whether positive or negative) wouldn't have any validity.
Les Claypool said the following in Entertainment Weekly (Published in issue #178 Jul 09, 1993), '' *Mr. Bungle Mr. Bungle ''I love these guys. Totally amazing tunes and production.'' *The Police Zenyatta Mondatta ''My favorite Police record, and the best- sounding one.'' That's Les Claypool offering opinions about the production values of albums he didn't work on. Is that wrong?
Again, I have to stand up for the right of people to both develop and express opinions.
David
David,

Saying you don't like the production values on "Sailing" is entirely valid. Saying you prefer "Frizzle Fry" or "Suck on This" is entirely valid. Les Claypool saying he likes the production on Mr. Bungle and Zenyatta Mondatta or the latest April Lavigne release is entirely valid.

Saying something is "overproduced" or "overmixed" or "overcompressed" however is irrelevant and redundant.

(Draws deep breath)

You can like the end result or not, but you cannot make any sort of comment on the intentions of the artists and producers who made those albums because you were not privy to any part of the creative process.

Sorry, have I not made this clear in any of my last posts?

Let's try this:

It's early 1991. Primus are about to go into the studio to make "Sailing". They have a meeting with Interscope and the A&R guy says, "So, guys, what do you want to do with this one?"

"Well, as a band we've been talking about it", says Larry, "And we've all decided to make this one really perfect, punched in and overdubbed".

"Well" the A&R guy says "I think you should make this one more orange, but we'll trust you on this one to make it really perfect, punched in and overdubbed".

They leave for the studio and while they're loading their gear in they come across a groupie. "Oh, hey man, you're Primus, aren't you? Oh, wow man, like I totally love you guys! I've been getting high to Frizzle Fry - huh - getting high to Frizzle Fry, that rhymes - for years man! You doing a new album?"

"Yes we are" says Tim.

"Oh man" says the groupie "I really hope you don't make this one too perfect, punched in and overdubbed..."

"Well" says Les, "That's exactly what our intentions are. Sorry man, you look really disappointed, but since you're not in the band, and we're producing this one ourselves, you don't get to have a say in how we produce this one - unfortunately you only get a say on whether you like it or not and whether you buy it or not."

The groupie says "Sorry dude, what were you saying? I was looking at this trippy bug on the ground. Whooooooaahhhh...."

Primus load their gear into the studio and make the album, while the groupie lies on the sidewalk to communicate with the bug.

A couple of weeks later, some rough mixes are made and the band turn up at the Interscope offices for another meeting.

Everyone sits sround a long table and a CD-R is loaded into a CD player. The head of Interscope and the A&R guy sit with baited breath. The expectant tension in the air is palpable. Finally, after what seems like eons, the noodly bass notes of "Sgt. Baker" waft in, followed by some drum and guitar stabs, before the propulsive onslaught of the song kicks in.

The song finishes and the room is silent.

Finally, Tom Whalley (the A&R guy) speaks up...

"Yeah, yeah, it's good... gooood, yup.... pretty good, yup... But I though this one was going to be more orange."

"No, not this one Tom," Larry offers, "This one was all about making it really perfect, punched in and overdubbed."

"Well, guys, you know I really respect you" Tom adds, "But we've still got some studio time booked - any chance of going in and... y'know, making is a little more... orange? Faith No More are just about to release an album, and from what I hear, their's is really quite very orange...."

"Well, Tom" Tim says "Since you're our A&R guy, and are only one of the few people who can actually have any creative input on this album, what say we make the front cover a cheesey yellow and do the back cover in orange. The music, however, and the production values will stay the same."

Tom is thrilled and the band deliver the album intact two weeks later. It hits the store and the fans go wild.

Primus hit the road and on their very first night a fan makes his way backstage with a copy of Frizzle Fry and Sailing... in his hands.

"Oh, hey guys..." The fans says. "Hope I'm not intruding, but like, you guys are my favourite band in the whole world! Just wondering if you can sign my CD's..."

"Sure! We'd love to!" Les says, and grabs a magic marker. "What do you think of our new album?"

"Oh man! I love it, man!" The fan says excitedly "I really love how really perfect and punched in and overdubbed it sounds!"

"Well, great" Tim says, "That's exactly the production style we were going for on this one."

The fans nods, before adding "Yeah, cause I think Frizzle Fry is really underproduced..."

The room falls silent. The band looks at each other, Les gets up, takes the young man's hand and sits him on the couch between them all.

"Listen," Les says, a paternal smile in his eyes "We love that you love our music. And we're thrilled you think "Sailing..." is so great. But you know, the only ones who get to say whether or not our music is overproduced or underproduced is us. Because we're the only ones responsible for making our records. You're more than welcome to pass judgement on whether you like them or not, or whether you buy our albums or come to our shows, but you saying "Frizzle" is underproduced is irrelevant and redundant. See, we don't include our fans in the creative process, we only share the result of the creative process with them. You saying "Frizzle" is underproduced - which, really is a nonsense term to begin with - implies you believe you can have a say in what our intentions should be as a creative entity. But you don't. Only we get to determine what our creative intentions are - and only we can measure whether or not we've been successful in achieving those intentions."

Les then appears to levitate as a beam of light shoots from his forehead, penetrating the ceiling of the room.

"One day" he says, his voice now a booming octave lower "a band called Radiohead will release an album called OK Imac." (He was close.) "This album will go on to be one of the biggest selling ever, and the band will be heralded as the "new Pink Floyd". The albums production values will be created by a man no one has heard of, but soon everyone will want to get into bed with him. The room mics on "Climbing Up the Walls" will be compressed heavily so they distort. And though many will say it sounds "overproduced" - which is a nonsense term to begin with - in fact it will be a deliberately chosen effect in order to convey the paranoia of growing up white upper-middle class in England with university degrees under their belts."

Now everyone in the room had beams of light shooting from the foreheads, and a low frequency rumble centred around 7Hz could be felt - but not heard.

Les went on. "Though many will say OK Imac is one of the most important albums of the 1990's, there will be many fans of Pablo Honey who call OK Imac "overproduced". However, since they were never involved in the creative process of making OK Imac, they can only make a call as to whether they like it or not, because according to the producer no ones heard of and the band, OK Imac came out produced exactly as they intended - neither overproduced nor underproduced - which are both nonsense terms to begin with."

Suddenly the light vanished and the room was quiet. Everyone had tears in their eyes, and a faint comforting smile was spread across everyone's lips.

The fan was first to speak.

"Y'know, it's not my place to say whether you guys underproduced or overproduced your album. How can I say that when I have no part in the creative process and have no idea of what your intentions are when you make an album? I can say whether I like the end result or not, but it is a bit silly for me to say it's under- or overproduced - which are both nonsense terms to begin with."

"That's right" Tim offers. "Only we know what our intentions are when making an album, so only we can say whether or not we've achieved what we set out to do. It's a bit like saying Coppola's new Dracula movie - which given that this is 1991, hasn't come out yet - is "too theatrical" or "overly stylized". We're not making the movie, and have no idea of what Francis' intentions are - maybe it is to make a highly stylized and overly theatrical film - in any case, we can say we like it or not, or that we would have preferred to see more of Winona Ryder's naked body, but as we were never in a position to make those calls, we can only enjoy it or not."

Larry chirps in. "Amen, Tim. You know, I love Apocalypse now, but not every film can look like that or have the same themes. And saying that the new Dracula film - which given this is 1991 hasn't come out yet - is "overproduced" compared to Apocalypse is kinda irrelevant and redundant, because none of us are in a position to change anything about the way the film is made. We can say we like it or not, or that we prefer Apocalypse to Dracula, but as a consumer of the product, that's all we can say."

"And every one has their reasons for liking or not liking something" Les says, "and can offer many innumerable ones for doing so, but just because you can form an opinion - which is valid to do so - does not make it one that necessarily has any relevance. My opinion on whether I like the film or not is certainly relevant, but only to me. If I'm a movie reviewer, then my comments are viewed differently, and carry different weight, but my comments are still firmly grounded within a solely subjective context. Only the filmakers - the only ones who can change the outcome of the film - have an objective context within which they can make decisions on the production values of the film. If halfway through production they decide the film it "too this..." or "too that..." then they have a context within which to make decisions about that. Only they can ever know whether the film is "too overproduced" - which is a nonsense term to begin with - because they were only every the ones who could change the outcome from "overproduced" to "properly produced." And what the hell does "properly produced" mean anyway?"

Without speaking another word they embrace one another as kindred spirits and the fan leaves the room, fully enlightened that to have an opinion is valid, but to know the context within which that opinion has any relevance is the most important thing of all.

In years to come, Les will come to be proven right about Radiohead, and Primus will make "Pork Soda" recorded in Les Claypools home studio, which many will consider a "backward step", because only albums made in big flash commercial studios can every be properly produced.

The end.

Love and hugs always and forever,

bdp
Old 1st May 2007 | Show parent
  #133
Lives for gear
 
David Herbert's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
In my opinion your last post was a little overproduced.
David
Old 1st May 2007 | Show parent
  #134
Lives for gear
 
ArcCirDude's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
PM sent about film rights to last (BDP) post....



David... Comeback of the year...heh
Old 1st May 2007 | Show parent
  #135
Gear Nut
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
In my opinion your last post was a little overproduced.
David
hehhehhehhehheh

Way to go !
Old 1st May 2007 | Show parent
  #136
Lives for gear
 
David Herbert's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I'm enjoying this.

However,
Regardless of what you have determined the rest of the world should or shouldn't do, the rest of us are going to continue to develop opinions on a wide range of topics. You may approve or disapprove of those topics as you see fit, but it matters not one whit to the rest of us. A wide range of people will continue to discuss music production and some portion of them will use the term "overproduced". There is really nothing you or I can do about it.

Cheers, David
Old 1st May 2007 | Show parent
  #137
Lives for gear
 
brendondp's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Herbert ➑️
I'm enjoying this.

However,
Regardless of what you have determined the rest of the world should or shouldn't do, the rest of us are going to continue to develop opinions on a wide range of topics. You may approve or disapprove of those topics as you see fit, but it matters not one whit to the rest of us. A wide range of people will continue to discuss music production and some portion of them will use the term "overproduced".There is really nothing you or I can do about it.

Cheers, David
Well, David, you could stop posting. That's certainly something you have the power to do.

Or, if you really wanted, you could write a constructive post. Either way, completely up to you.

The problem I'm having, and I may be the only one here, is that you're continuing a discussion which has no context for validity.

Calling something "overproduced" suggests that there is a measure for production. In that case, we could assume that if something can be "overproduced" it can also be "underproduced".

The question you haven't been able to answer, nor in fact, attempt to answer, is who can make it and how that measurement is made.

Personally, I continue to find it redundant for someone who was not privy to make decisions on the production of the album in the first place to then apply an arbitrary measurement based solely on their opinion in the determination of whether something is "overproduced" or not.

Do you really believe that your opinion is the determining factor on whether an album is overproduced or not? Obviously so, because you continue to defend your "right" to do so.

And if so, then what is the scale you're applying to determine this?

Obviously not the artists or producers intentions.

Even though the producer and artist may believe they made the best decisions during the creative process in "producing" the album, you believe, based solely on your opinion alone you stand in a better place to make judgements on whether it's over- or underproduced. Wow.

It doesn't matter to you what the intentions of the artists and producers of an album may have been, because your opinion on it supercedes the process, as only your opinion of the finished product matters.

Is that what you're saying?

If so, then please, continue to post as often as you possibly can.

Becuase fuk knows I'd much rather see more posts from guys like you who have opinions on albums than the ones charged with the responsibility of making them in the first place.

All the best for your future career.

bdp
Old 1st May 2007 | Show parent
  #138
Lives for gear
 
David Herbert's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
If your goal is to get me to stop posting, I have already stated that I am not going to stop forming and expressing opinions.

If all you are trying to do is up your post count...

Mission Accomplished!

Cheers, David
Old 1st May 2007 | Show parent
  #139
Lives for gear
 
brendondp's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Herbert ➑️
If your goal is to get me to stop posting, I have already stated that I am not going to stop forming and expressing opinions.
No, no. My goal is not to stop you posting or - heaven forbid - stop you expressing your opinion on an internet forum (gasp!).

My goal is to try and understand how you think you have a better perspective on the intentions of artists and producers than they do.

As yet, you've offered nothing in the way of any sort of coherent logical argument as to how you measure this, or how your opinion validates it.

Your last six posts have sought to defend your "right" to post whatever you want, in the interest of the development of ideas and expressions of opinions - yet as far I can tell, none of your posts have developed your argument "one whit" except to continue to defend your right to do so.

Again - how are you measuring whether an album is overproduced or not? Against the artists and producers intentions or just against your own "opinion"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Herbert ➑️
If all you are trying to do is up your post count...

Mission Accomplished!

Cheers, David
Come on David, you've got more intelligence than that...

You started a thread entitled Examples of Overproduced Songs/Albums under the guise of "things to avoid" in the future because you managed to acknowledge your part in "overproducing" some stuff you've worked on. That's completely valid, because only you would know what you were shooting for in the production of those songs in the first place.

I even suggested you post some of your own stuff so you could tell us what your intentions were so we could subjectively "measure" how successful you were. If you told us you were shooting for a stripped down, lo-fi all acoustic album, but ended up making Michael Jackson's "Invincible" album, then you would certainly be justified in saying you "overproduced it". We would also be justified in suggesting the same. But only because you had already stated what your intention was in the first place.

However, you've given us no indication as to how you know what Primus were shooting for on "Sailing...", nor what Peter Gabriel was trying to achieve on "UP", so again, I wonder how you can then make a judgement call on those albums by calling them "overproduced"?

My question remains - how then do you determine whether or not another artist's work is "overproduced" when you had no part in the creative process?

I, for one, continue to sit through bull**** one liners and glib off-hand remarks to hear your answer.

Anytime you're ready,

bdp
Old 1st May 2007 | Show parent
  #140
Lives for gear
 
David Herbert's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote from brendonp:

" My goal is to try and understand how you think you have a better perspective on the intentions of artists and producers than they do. "

When have I suggested that I have a BETTER perspective on the intentions of artists and producers than they do? Don't try to put words in my mouth. I have my perspective, it's a considered one, I express myself politely, I do so at a forum purpose-built for this type of expression.

Quote from brendonp:

" Your last six posts have sought to defend your right to post whatever you want, in the interest of the development of ideas and expressions of opinions - "

Only because you are attacking my right to post my opinions.

Quote from brendonp:

" Again - how are you measuring whether an album is overproduced or not? Against the artists and producers intentions or just against your own "opinion"? "

A reasonable question. If I listen to an album (for example) by an artist I am already familiar with and like, and the album isn't as pleasing to me as prior work by the same artist, I try and figure out why I am not as thrilled.
The first aspects I would consider would be on a larger scale, songwriting, arrangements, performances, perhaps the overall themes of the album (if obvious). Usually I don't have to go any farther than that. If I decide those aspects are fine I dig deeper. A lot of times I decide (my opinion) that the album sounds lifeless, that the energy of a PERFORMANCE of the songs wasn't captured. The song is there but perhaps all the parts were recorded separately and thus don't have the interdependence and intensity of a bunch of musicians playing together, perhaps the vocals were looped to the point where the singer is self conscious and isn't putting emotion into the words. Perhaps the songs have all been edited to grid, destroying the natural groove.
If I decide (opinion) that I don't like an album and chalk it up to poor production (opinion), and decide that the specific problem inside of the general area of production was overproduction (ex: lifeless because of too many ODs, punches, etc.), then I might suggest that the album is overproduced. My experience of listening to a record is not just intellectual, but for the purpose of trying to describe my reactions it may appear so.
Some of my favorite albums took time to grow on me. I didn't hear on first listen what I later would. The context of my life, my mood, etc, all come in to play. It's subjective.
The intentions and motives of the artist or producer are not usually my primary concern when listening to an album for the first time. Does the music move me? Are the lyrics intelligent, compelling? Am I drawn in? On an emotional and intellectual level I am first and foremost reacting to how the album affects ME. If I am listening to a song with a specific purpose, perhaps one that seeks to tell a story or is a political song, my experience might be colored by that. I might ask myself if I am able to follow the narrative or understand the political message put forth.
I don't see a problem in reporting that I loved "Frizzle Fry" but wasn't as excited by "Sailing on the Seas of Cheese", and that my opinion is that "Fry" captured exciting performances while "Sailing" didn't (as much). If I say that "Sailing" sounds too punched and OD'ed, that I suspect that good performances were punched in too many times to make them "perfect" (rendering them less spontaneous and energetic), that perfection was chosen over energy and spontanaeity, it's an opinion based on observation. My suspicions might be wrong; every song on "Sailing" may have gone direct to 2 track (hell, it might have been Direct To Disc), but the FEEL of spontaneity and energy aren't as present on "Sailing" as they are on "Fry" (opinion).
If I buy an allbum and don't like it, I have the right to form opinions as to why I don't like it. Providing a more detailed response than just saying I don't like it seems MORE reasonable than just being dismissive.
Judging by the fact that "Sailing" outsold "Fry" by a wide margin, I wouldn't be surprised if people disagreed with me. I am fine with disagreement, particularly when it leads to a respectful and interesting debate.

Quote from brendonp:

"Come on David, you've got more intelligence than that... (in response to my "Mission Accomplished!" statement)."

First, I am only referring to what you said:

Quote from brendonp:

"From where I stand, this thread is a really pretty redundant, except for the purposes of being a smart-arse, and allowing one to increase the number of posts under their username.

Which I think I achieved.

Cheers,

bdp"

[end quote]

Second, your casting me as some stoned groupie in your extraordinarily long fiction piece wasn't intended to be slyly insulting?

Third:

Quote from brendonp:

"Your last six posts have sought to defend your "right" to post whatever you want, in the interest of the development of ideas and expressions of opinions - yet as far I can tell, none of your posts have developed your argument one whit except to continue to defend your right to do so.

Again - how are you measuring whether an album is overproduced or not? Against the artists and producers intentions or just against your own "opinion"?"

[end quote]

My interpretation of your use of quotation marks around the words "right" and "opinion" is that you are suggesting I don't have a "right" to my "opinions". If so, that's pretty insulting.

My point is that you have been making sarcastic comments as well, prior to any I addressed to you. Kind of makes your protests ring hollow. I have taken our back and forth in the spirit of good-natured thrust and parry and figured you were as well. I don't have a negative opinion of you, and judging by your posts you are smart, knowledgeable, and are willing to defend what you say. That's all good. Frankly I would be just as happy to discuss things more civilly and leave the zingers out.

Cheers,
David
Old 1st May 2007 | Show parent
  #141
Lives for gear
 
Spectacle's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
What about when a producer polishes a truly nasty turd?

When he/she makes a decent, or even good-sounding record with a band that has real trouble actually doing any "creating" at all, can't play in time or tune, doesn't write any of their own stuff, etc. (but they've got the right "look" that the label is excited to market).

Is this overproducing? Is it immoral? Is it a fraud if the record has the name of the band on the front as the "artist", instead of the producer who is responsible in this case for at least 95% of the sound? Particularly when the band isn't a pop group, but rather sells itself as a "genuine" rock/indie/emo or other traditionally less corporate-driven genre of a band. Could we consider this overproduction?
Old 2nd May 2007 | Show parent
  #142
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
if we want to sell music with vocals, then the singer(s) must have "something".
everything else can be manufactured by the producer.
regarding the topic, IMHO everthing is about the balance between the impact that comes from the vocal tracks vs the impact that comes from the beat and instrumentals.
it is technically possible to enhance the impact of the singer, but beyond some threshold it will sound unnatural or pathetic and then it depends on luck. the cher effect (was it the shoop song?) was fine at that time, but today - rarely. there was still a strong melody required.
when the singer can't compete with the music or with his/her own sound effects, then I would call it overproduced.
whether the band is a "fake" is a different story.
Old 2nd May 2007 | Show parent
  #143
Gear Addict
 
Auslander's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spectacle ➑️
What about when a producer polishes a truly nasty turd?

When he/she makes a decent, or even good-sounding record with a band that has real trouble actually doing any "creating" at all, can't play in time or tune, doesn't write any of their own stuff, etc. (but they've got the right "look" that the label is excited to market).

Is this overproducing? Is it immoral? Is it a fraud if the record has the name of the band on the front as the "artist", instead of the producer who is responsible in this case for at least 95% of the sound? Particularly when the band isn't a pop group, but rather sells itself as a "genuine" rock/indie/emo or other traditionally less corporate-driven genre of a band. Could we consider this overproduction?
In a word, no. I think it sounds as if it was necessary.

Old 2nd May 2007 | Show parent
  #144
Lives for gear
 
brendondp's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Herbert ➑️
My point is that you have been making sarcastic comments as well, prior to any I addressed to you. Kind of makes your protests ring hollow. I have taken our back and forth in the spirit of good-natured thrust and parry and figured you were as well. I don't have a negative opinion of you, and judging by your posts you are smart, knowledgeable, and are willing to defend what you say. That's all good. Frankly I would be just as happy to discuss things more civilly and leave the zingers out.
Hey, I totally agree.

I've edited your post to stick your last paragraph first, in part because it sums up how I feel as well.

My sarcastic comments can certainly be viewed that way - as sarcasm. And I'm not trying to defend them in any way. I stick by what I've written so far, and yes, I've tried various ways to develop an argument for my position, both directly and through sarcasm and an attempt at humour - very subjective but there it is. All these have been attempts at getting to the core of a problematic term, rather than character assassination, which so far I'm happy to say neither or us have used. (I'll tackle the "stoner" comments futher on...)

But let me say this before we go on:

David, I value your contributions to Gearslutz. I have no ill-feelings toward you at all, in fact it wouldn't surprise me if we got along swell over a beer and some pretzels and talked long into the night about all sorts or random ****. I really appreciate you coming back with a post that's considered and clarifies your position further - many would have given up by now I'm sure.

Thanks - and I mean that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Herbert ➑️
Quote from brendonp:

" My goal is to try and understand how you think you have a better perspective on the intentions of artists and producers than they do. "

When have I suggested that I have a BETTER perspective on the intentions of artists and producers than they do? Don't try to put words in my mouth. I have my perspective, it's a considered one, I express myself politely, I do so at a forum purpose-built for this type of expression.
The word "better" was designed to get a response. Because I'm still not sure how it's possible to judge an albums creative process from the outside. It's certainly possible to judge the product - but the process?... man, I'm really not sure. At the risk of repeating myself: How can someone who had no part of the process then judge that the process was "overdone"? That still makes no sense to me. You can certainly say the product "sounds overdone to you" but to say the process itself was overdone...? How is that measured? I'm guessing only by someone who has a higher level of prespective than the ones charged with the responsibility of making the album in the fist place... And who is that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Herbert ➑️
Quote from brendonp:

" Your last six posts have sought to defend your right to post whatever you want, in the interest of the development of ideas and expressions of opinions - "

Only because you are attacking my right to post my opinions.
Sure, I can see why you think I'm attacking your right to post. What I've been attempting to do is question the validity of your argument. And I've used language that has probably derailed the argument somewhat. I apologise for that. Of course, absolutely you have the right to post whatever you want. Everyone does. The amazing thing about the internet is that if someone wants to post neo-**** proto-fascist girls-blowing-cows pictures on the internet - they can! They certainly have the "right" to do so, but I certainly reserve the "right" to question their reason for doing so. And no, I'm not equating any of your posts with neo-**** proto-fascist material. (Quote marks used because given that the goverment is the "supplier of rights" - and the preventer or others - I question whether we can ever have rights at all. A topic for another day maybe...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Herbert ➑️
Quote from brendonp:

" Again - how are you measuring whether an album is overproduced or not? Against the artists and producers intentions or just against your own "opinion"? "

A reasonable question. If I listen to an album (for example) by an artist I am already familiar with and like, and the album isn't as pleasing to me as prior work by the same artist, I try and figure out why I am not as thrilled.
The first aspects I would consider would be on a larger scale, songwriting, arrangements, performances, perhaps the overall themes of the album (if obvious). Usually I don't have to go any farther than that. If I decide those aspects are fine I dig deeper. A lot of times I decide (my opinion) that the album sounds lifeless, that the energy of a PERFORMANCE of the songs wasn't captured. The song is there but perhaps all the parts were recorded separately and thus don't have the interdependence and intensity of a bunch of musicians playing together, perhaps the vocals were looped to the point where the singer is self conscious and isn't putting emotion into the words. Perhaps the songs have all been edited to grid, destroying the natural groove.
Absolutely. I imagine most of us listen to records in the exact same way. And there can be a million reasons to like or not like an album. They're all subjective, you're correct. It's easy to prefer say, a live version of a song over the studio version, or the charm of a demo rather than the mega-buck mega-mix version of the same song. Could be the performance, could be the cover art... And as many people say "toh-MAY-tow" there are just as many who say "toh-MAR-tow". But this thread is not about what we like or don't like, right? It's about making a judgement on the process of making an album and when it becomes over- or underdone. That's a whole 'nother kettle of fish altogether, and honestly, what I've been trying to clarify in most of my posts.

Editing to a grid, much like double-tracking guitars or compressing the **** out of room mics are not credible evidence of whether or not an album is "lifeless". It may be used as a reason for the subject to label it so but "lifeless" is a purely subjective statement. ("I think it sounds lifeless because it was edited to a grid" is just as valid as someone saying "I think it sounds lifeless because it wasn't edited to a grid.)

Again, editing to a grid or double-tracking guitars (not to mention multi-tracking, vocal comps, and general performance issues) may lead the subject to label it "lifeless", but none of those things have anything to do with whether an album is overproduced or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Herbert ➑️
If I decide (opinion) that I don't like an album and chalk it up to poor production (opinion), and decide that the specific problem inside of the general area of production was overproduction (ex: lifeless because of too many ODs, punches, etc.), then I might suggest that the album is overproduced. My experience of listening to a record is not just intellectual, but for the purpose of trying to describe my reactions it may appear so.
Yes. But I think we're confusing terms here.

Are you equating too many overdubs and punches with "lifelessness" or "overproduction"? Those aren't the same things to me.

The first is a wholy subjective comment - I like this or I don't like this (it sounds boring); the latter a measure of production - "over" meaning "in excess". If something can be "over" then it must be able to be measured. If I say I can "overfill" a bucket with water, then I should be able to measure how I've done that.

That's why I'm saying the "measurement" used in the production of an album is and remains the sole domain of the producers and artists working on it at the time. Only they know the "internal ruler" by with which to gauge the end product.

It's completely valid for anyone to make subjective appraisals of any album or work or art they choose. They can say it sounds/looks too "lifeless", too "distorted", too "green" or too "compressed" (see Loudness Wars). But the measurement for those things is completely variable - each person will see/hear things differently leading to different interpretations of the same work.

But, at the risk of being a complete fukwit - to say something is "overproduced" is not a subjective judgement; it's implying that in the measurement of the production of an album, the producers/artists went in excess of what was intended. (On a scale of 1 to 10, they went for 5 and ended up at 8.)

Completely and utterly reasonable for the artists/producers to make that comment, but how does someone exterior to the process measure that when

A) They didn't know what "number" they were shooting for; and
B) Didn't know what measurement they were using?

The scale you use to measure nu-metal will be drastically different to the scale you use to measure bluegrass. A bluegrass album shooting for "5", say - not too many edits, direct to tape as much as possible, comping the lead vocal, overdubs on the BVs and slide solos - is not the same as "5" on a nu-metal album - multitracked, multi-miked, band playing together for basic takes, rhythm guitars double tracked and re-amped, drums heavily compressed with samples added, etc. (We're imaging 10 for nu-metal is where everything is replaced in the mix, with nothing tracked at the same time, heavily sequenced and gridded, etc... And yes, this is a completely flawed methodology, used only for illustrative purposes.)

Again, it's completely valid to not like something because of its production values, but that is very different to me then saying something is overproduced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Herbert ➑️
Some of my favorite albums took time to grow on me. I didn't hear on first listen what I later would. The context of my life, my mood, etc, all come in to play. It's subjective.
The intentions and motives of the artist or producer are not usually my primary concern when listening to an album for the first time. Does the music move me? Are the lyrics intelligent, compelling? Am I drawn in? On an emotional and intellectual level I am first and foremost reacting to how the album affects ME. If I am listening to a song with a specific purpose, perhaps one that seeks to tell a story or is a political song, my experience might be colored by that. I might ask myself if I am able to follow the narrative or understand the political message put forth.
Absolutely. But all the above is about the product, not the process. To me, they aren't the same thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Herbert ➑️
I don't see a problem in reporting that I loved "Frizzle Fry" but wasn't as excited by "Sailing on the Seas of Cheese", and that my opinion is that "Fry" captured exciting performances while "Sailing" didn't (as much). If I say that "Sailing" sounds too punched and OD'ed, that I suspect that good performances were punched in too many times to make them "perfect" (rendering them less spontaneous and energetic), that perfection was chosen over energy and spontanaeity, it's an opinion based on observation. My suspicions might be wrong; every song on "Sailing" may have gone direct to 2 track (hell, it might have been Direct To Disc), but the FEEL of spontaneity and energy aren't as present on "Sailing" as they are on "Fry" (opinion).
If I buy an allbum and don't like it, I have the right to form opinions as to why I don't like it. Providing a more detailed response than just saying I don't like it seems MORE reasonable than just being dismissive.
Judging by the fact that "Sailing" outsold "Fry" by a wide margin, I wouldn't be surprised if people disagreed with me. I am fine with disagreement, particularly when it leads to a respectful and interesting debate.
I think here the distinction is clearer. It's fine to say "Sailing..." sounds "less energetic" to you. That's a subjective judgement call. But to say it sounds too punched and OD'd - that can be measured objectively. We can measure it by knowing whether it was puched and OD'd. If it wasn't punched and OD'd, then you're still able to say it "sounds that way to you", but that still doesn't make it "overproduced". To say it sounds "overproduced" is to make a leap from a subjective statement based on knowledge of the process, to measuring the process proper. Two different things.

I really like "Sailing...". I really like "Suck on This" and "Miscellaneous Debris". Suck on this "sounds like it's live" to me, but I have to admit that's because I know it was recorded live. You can hear mistakes and I think that adds to its charm. But those are still wholely subjective statements on my part, based on some factual knowledge that I can't disregard in my opinion of it (I know it was recorded live, so saying "it doesn't sound live" is a little redundant. It's still valid, but redundant nevertheless.) But in saying that I'm not measuring the intentions of the artist or producers. Saying it sounds "underproduced" is.

The reason I think "Sailing..." outsold "Frizzle..." by a wide margin is that they had Interscope's millions behind them, had two videos on MTV, starred in Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey and toured with U2, Anthrax and Public Enemy. And Tom Wait's baritone on "Tommy the Cat". Which has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the artistic merit of the album in question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Herbert ➑️
Quote from brendonp:

"Come on David, you've got more intelligence than that... (in response to my "Mission Accomplished!" statement)."

First, I am only referring to what you said:

Quote from brendonp:

"From where I stand, this thread is a really pretty redundant, except for the purposes of being a smart-arse, and allowing one to increase the number of posts under their username.

Which I think I achieved.

Cheers,

bdp"

[end quote]
True. The thing is, I've tried - and lord knows I have - to further the discussion on the topic. Yes, what I said is flippant - but was ultimately meant to be an attempt (albeit veiled) to say "what is the actual value of this thread, and in particular the use of the word "overproduced"? That's been my sole concern in each of my posts. I agree I haven't always put it that succinctly, and I take full responsibility for that. And I further accept that those posts engender similar responses. But at some stage the topic proper needs to be addressed. I'm glad it feels we're finally doing that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Herbert ➑️
Second, your casting me as some stoned groupie in your extraordinarily long fiction piece wasn't intended to be slyly insulting?
Not at all. The funny thing is, I never intended to lampoon you personally with the stoned groupie thing. However, I do credit you with getting me thinking about it in the first place. The main reference point was the first Primus gig I ever went to, on the back of "Sailing..." I think. Man, if you had never inhaled up until that point, you certainly left the gig with blurry eyes and a happy disposition. Them were the good ole days...

The truth is, insulting someone on an internet forum is about as effective as debating Avril Lavigne's credibility as an artist. Seriously, what can anyone hope to achieve? ("I think she's a credible artist"... "I don't think she's a credible artist"... wow, subjectivity triumphs again...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Herbert ➑️
Third:

Quote from brendonp:

"Your last six posts have sought to defend your "right" to post whatever you want, in the interest of the development of ideas and expressions of opinions - yet as far I can tell, none of your posts have developed your argument one whit except to continue to defend your right to do so.

Again - how are you measuring whether an album is overproduced or not? Against the artists and producers intentions or just against your own "opinion"?"

[end quote]

My interpretation of your use of quotation marks around the words "right" and "opinion" is that you are suggesting I don't have a "right" to my "opinions". If so, that's pretty insulting.

Cheers,
David
And, of course, everyone has a right to their opinions. But I don't think everyone's opinion is necessarily always valid.

Let me give you an example:

I say that I think the new ProSpeaker 2.1 Active Monitor is fairly neutral but not very exciting. That's certainly within my rights to say so. I may even preface it by saying "In my opinion". I may follow it up by saying that it's my "right" to post that opinion.

The problem is, I've never actually heard the ProSpeaker 2.1 Active Monitor in question. So while it's valid for me to post my opinion and have the right to do so, it would be very legitimate for people to question the validity of my statement.

It's certainly within anyone's right to post their opinion on whether or not an album is "overproduced" or not.

My problem is, and remains, that I still don't see, not from anything anyone's posted so far, how someone who was not involved in the process of making an album, and therefore not privy to know how the production on that same album was to be measured, can then judge one way or another on whether that album was either under- or overproduced, except to say that subjectively it "sounds like it to them". And if they do say "it sounds like it was overproduced" again, my question is, "how do you know what the artists/producers criteria were" in order to objectively measure whether or not they over- or underproduced it?

"Overspending", "overfilling", an "overdraft", "overheating" and "overdubbing" can all be measured objectively. "I spent $5 more than I should", "I overfilled this bucket by one quart", "I overdubbed 6 tracks more than the original".

Again, what is the objective criteria for measuring whether an album was "overproduced"?

I'll say, and for the last time, that the only way to "measure it" is against the artist/producers original intentions, which unless shared openly solely remain the domain of the ones charged with the responsibility of making it.

[End of Speil]

Right, with that over, I'd like to say, David:

I still disagree with you that anyone but those involved (or privy to certain information) can say an album was "overproduced", for the reasons I've mentioned above.

BUT!

I completely respect your arguments, and am glad that you're here on Gearslutz. Truth be told, I've appreciated many of your previous posts and will no doubt continue to do so.

And man, do I need go do something else right now...

David, again, thanks for your posts. They've made me question a lot of my own preconceptions and ideas, and though I still hold the same position as when we started, I'm grateful to have traded words with a gentleman such as yourself.

Cheers to you,

bdp
Old 2nd May 2007 | Show parent
  #145
Lives for gear
 
David Herbert's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
brendonp,
I don't have the time right now to write up a proper response, but I would like to say that I appreciate your kind words. Your last post did a good job of laying out your argument. I'm a little disappointed I'm not the groupie guy because it was such a hilarious post.

Here is where we agree, as far as I can tell:

As regards the production of albums, it's impossible to give an objective opinion about the process unless you were there.

Here is where we disagree: you don't think subjective opinions about the process have any value while I think they can. To you it's just cocktail chatter. To me it's just coktail chatter, but I have learned a few helpful things from cocktail chatter.

We probably aren't going to change each other's minds on the topic, but that's fine. A few more like this one and Overproduction will rank alongside Politics and Religion as one of the great ponderables. We have certainly written some quality posts, and I am glad to see that others are joining in to give the topic some new life.

I'm kind of rambling here, please forgive, but I am currently thinking about how difficult it is to render an objective opinion even if involved in an album. Being closer to the process might not make a person more objective about it. Probably the most objective guy is the one who is there every day and gets an earful, but is down the hall working on another project.

More from me later,
David
Old 2nd May 2007 | Show parent
  #146
Lives for gear
 
David Herbert's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
brendonp,

As for being ready to move on, fair enough. I think we exhausted this one.

David
Old 2nd May 2007 | Show parent
  #147
Lives for gear
 
lordward's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I find the term "over produced" to be ridiculous.

It was made up by musicians and people in the music industry.

Most listeners wouldn't understand the concept even very well explained.

Either they like it or not.... or else all these "over produced" albums would never have sold so well.

Sorry I'm late.....
Old 2nd May 2007 | Show parent
  #148
Lives for gear
 
David Herbert's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Lordwar,
You are welcome, even if you are late. As you can see we have been having quite the party.
To fill you in a little, we're focusing on albums where the songs, etc. are good but the production somehow overwhelms them. It's a shot in the dark and some credible people have, as you, questioned the value of the whole thing. Frankly, the term overproduced seems to be a loaded one. I would have titled the thread differently had I realized. Having seen many threads titled "Best Produced" or "Best Sounding" album, and having noticed that there are some albums/artists that always get lauded, I wanted to find out if there was any consensus about albums that were poorly produced. Specifically I wanted to discuss albums that had been beaten to death: good material rendered lifeless by too much fiddling (I don't mean a stringed instrument).
It's difficult to offer solid, defendable opinions about material that you didn't work on. So many variables.
Anyway, I have gotten some valuable info already and encourage you and everyone else to continue to post opinions and observations.
Thanks, David
Old 2nd May 2007 | Show parent
  #149
Gear Addict
 
Auslander's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Just to add a little bit more needless fuel to the fire..

I think it's very unlikely that anyone who is actually part of making a record, and someone who has any say in what goes on would deliberately "overproduce" something for the sake of it. All the decisions on direction made at the time are perceived as the being the right thing to do for the project.

Of course, there might well be cases where, looking back after an extended period of time, the artist or those involved might say "yeah that was a bit over the top, why the hell did we do that" etc. but the concept of "overproduction" per se almost certainly stems from outside criticism, or perhaps just from someone who was periphally involved, i.e. a studio employee, hanger-on, pizza delivery guy etc. who felt like expressing their opinion of what they saw happening.

I've certainly never been involved with a project where we've all said "Ok, let's just overdo this for the hell of it. Let's do another 6 tracks of rhythm gtrs, and another 16 tracks of backing vocals" just because the tracks are available..

Having said that, I did work with Queen on three of their early albums back in the dark ages, but to be perfectly honest, things were just "done" not premeditated. If we had a 3 part harmony part that needed a bit of fattening up, we'd often just double the whole thing, making 6 tracks (which all needed to be bounced down immediately anyway, as those albums were either 16 track or 24 in the case of SHA, and we were continually running out of tracks)

Just my 0.02
Old 2nd May 2007 | Show parent
  #150
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
production values, production guidelines, goals and terms of the contract, ..
"overproduced" seems to touch these in a technical or literal way, but that expression became mainly popular by criticism, e.g. journalists and consumers.
perhaps this comes out as an anomaly in language, but outside of the context (to be part of the team) it should automatically mean something subjective.
many fans and journalists WANT to re-engineer the creative process. by this hypotheticising, they feel connected to the artist and the artist gets more response and feels understood (or not..)

engineers, producers and artists in the learning want to discuss the assumed production values and everything as well, though perhaps the owner and producer of the original may see them as secrets and ground of success.
so, what I learn here is, that criticising with overused buzzwords, by some of the creators of the product may be seen as adverse or detrimental, or plainly disrespectful.

which leads to the question of how much is the album a closed "product" and how much is it meant as an interactive experience, that may pull the listener into every aspect of its meaning and making (therefore the notorious "making of" docus, interviews, and videos)

it's a pity but seems when we are IN the business, we lose innocence and can't any more enjoy some music the same way fans or journalists do. at least not openly.
πŸ“ Reply

Similar Threads

Thread / Thread Starter Replies / Views Last Post
replies: 295 views: 72420
Avatar for anguswoodhead
anguswoodhead 26th March 2013
replies: 15929 views: 1528860
Avatar for Ragan
Ragan 11th January 2019
replies: 1296 views: 178602
Avatar for heraldo_jones
heraldo_jones 1st February 2016
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearspace Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…

Forum Jump
Forum Jump