Quantcast
DOD, discrete drums, DRUMCORE -which one to buy????HELP! - Gearspace.com
The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
DOD, discrete drums, DRUMCORE -which one to buy????HELP!
Old 6th May 2006
  #1
Lives for gear
 
fuzzface777's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
DOD, discrete drums, DRUMCORE -which one to buy????HELP!

Well, I started getting free drumloops off a google search for my PT LE DAW. Though fun to make quick mixes, I quickly realized that that was severely limiting after the first day.... ( no bpm meta data, poor recordings etc) nonetheless it got me started with something. THen I bought two drumloop packages on Ebay, (quite cheap 20 usd approx) but they were much better and there was no meta data (bpm etc).

So DUC members told me about drums on demand, and discrete drums months ago.



I first looked at drums on demand (vol 3 -agressive) and I liked what I heard. For twice the price you can upgrade to 24 bit, mono multi level tracks. HAS ANYONE used this in their DAW? Do you like it? Are the loops easy to make a useable tracks with fills etc.? IS there convenient metadata? DOD recommends REX file format for protools users? Would you agree? I haven't even used REX, only wav.... What is the advantage of REX?

Discete Drums-sony

Has anyone used any discrete drums packages? Are the loops acidized and easy to use (like DOD is supposed to be)??? Is the metadata easy to use in protools?

Drumcore the most pricy, but very user friendly and easy to use in protools -with drummer packs to focus on a specific sound/style.

Anyway, if ANYONE has used any of these or ALL of them, could you please give some advice or a recommendation.

I mostly want my loops for ROCK, pop, blues, .....

thanks
Old 7th May 2006
  #2
Lives for gear
 
Mastering101's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
i have all the discrete drums pro sets. i love them, best loop ive ever used
Old 7th May 2006 | Show parent
  #3
Lives for gear
 
artbeat77's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Here's another cool product that just hit the street:

http://www.ezdrummer.com

It's new and has loops in the genres you mentioned. It sounds real good, and I think it's user-friendly. I have friends that use Discrete Drums and get great results, although I haven't personally played with them. Can't argue with great sounding tracks. Ditto for Drumcore.

I'm not familiar with DOD.
Old 7th May 2006 | Show parent
  #4
Lives for gear
 
fuzzface777's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
easy drummer looks cool too, for PT LE however the compatibility is to be announced....

Doesn't anyone here use these drums programs?
Old 7th May 2006 | Show parent
  #5
Lives for gear
 
artbeat77's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
EZdrummer was tested in PT 7.1 with VST wrapper V2. The report was that it worked "very, very well" although Toontrack is probably waiting to release an official RTAS version before announcing PT compatibility. Just FYI.
Old 7th May 2006 | Show parent
  #6
Lowdbrent
Guest
I can vouch for Drum Core. It is very well rounded. If you want extreme edge drum for hard rock or metal, etc, look elsewhere. I am hoping for more prog rock players myself. I use PT 6.2.3, so I cannot make use of the drag and drop feature, but it does export to the file window extremely fast.
Old 7th May 2006 | Show parent
  #7
Lives for gear
 
fuzzface777's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
lowdbrent, so you really enjoy it? Did you buy any drummer packs?
Old 7th May 2006 | Show parent
  #8
Lives for gear
 
DAWgEAR's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I am a songwriter first and not an engineer. I am not a drummer nor am I good at programming realistic drum parts. That's where I'm coming from with what I have to say below.

In my quest for natural acoustic rock drum tracks that (i) groove and (ii) sound great, and (iii) are not overplayed, I have bought BFD+XFL, DFHS, Groove Agent, RMX+Xpanders, Jamstix, ...

None has been a complete solution for me. Either the sound are not quite right (or require more tweaking than I am capable of to get right), or the gooves are not quite right or it is too complicated to wade through the gooves, or the interface is too cumbersome and interferes with the creative process, or the product is not flexible enough.

I've used loops (although not DOD) and have found it too limiting to conform my song to the groove of the loop, not to mention being stuck with a sound that is too wet, ringy, compressed, aggressive, mellow, or whatever. Plus most loop libraries do not give you a lot of song construction elements to begin with.

So I have concluded that I like the flexibility of midi and should be looking toward collections of "song construction" midi patterns that groove.

I recently bought Drumcore and I have pre-ordered EZ Drummer. EZ Drummer will arrive tomorrow and I have high hopes for it.

I LOVE Drumcore and now use it exclusively. The audio grooves are very good, but I don't like that feature the best since the number of variations is limited in some cases and the drum sounds are not always appropriate. I use it mainly as a midi instrument and IMHO, this is where it really shines. The supplied kits are very good sounding out of the box and you can mix and match kit elements and import your own samples as well. Basic percussion is included. There are approximately 800 midi grooves (no midi fills, sadly) and they sound great. They really groove. Plus Drumcore functions as a librarian for midi and audio grooves -- this is also a great and unique feature and it makes wading through and auditioning your possibly vast collection of grooves about as effortless as it can be.

I have imported the midi grooves from Vamtech's Drumtrax (which includes approximately 200 fills among lots of other stuff and costs $50) and the combination is formidable. The Drumtrax grooves, like Drumcore's own are playbed by real (and good) drummers.

There are some slightly irritating user interface quirks about Drumcore, but nothing to outweigh the great sounding drum tracks I am now getting. It works flawlessly via Rewire with Cubase SX 3.1.

Drumcore 2 is due out any time now and it will feature expanded content, REX 2 import/export (export only of the Drumcore content), and separate outs for the midi sound module (in Drumcore 1.5 we only have stereo out).

I am anxiously awaiting EZ Drummer. Again, more so for the midi grooves. And also because the kit pieces are supposed to be less "raw" than DFHS.

That's my two cents.
Old 7th May 2006 | Show parent
  #9
Lives for gear
 
fuzzface777's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
DAWgEAR,

Thanks for that info. How do you use Drumcore in MIDI? I thought you could only drag /drop in into an audio file? Do you use a midicontroller with Drumcore??
Old 8th May 2006 | Show parent
  #10
Lives for gear
 
DAWgEAR's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I don't know about Pro Tools, but in Cubase I route a midi track containing midi data to Drumcore and it plays using whatever kit I have selected in Drumcore. Obviously, a keyboard or drum controller could also be used, although Drumcore is nowhere near as adapted to edrums as, say, DFHS or BFD.

There are several kits per drummer; I like the Ben Smith kits for basic rock. Drumcore's kits are set up by default to play according to the general midi standard, although that can be changed by the user. You can create and save your own kits and obviously load your own samples. I like the cymbals and hihats in the stock kits in particular. I have various snares that I have loaded in for specific uses, but the rest of the kit is stock.

Drumcore's librarian lets you export anything stored in Drumcore's database. Out of the box, it comes with audio and midi grooves from each featured drummer plus some audio only percussion grooves plus around 700 or so midi "song" grooves based on famous songs we have all heard (and some I apparently do not recognize). And of course, you can import any audio or midi files you want and organize them similar to Drumcore's own content ... and then make use of Drumcore's search capabilities. You can set preferences so that selecting an audio or midi groove in the search window/librarian automatically plays it. And the curso keys on your computer keyboard can be used to advance from one loop to another.

I believe that Pro Tools does not support drag and drop (I could be mistaken as I am not a PT user), but in Cubase, you just drag an audio or midi file onto an audio or midi track, respectively, in the project/arrangement window. Otherwise, you can export to a folder of your choosing and then import into your host (e.g. PT) that way.

So, the way I work is to audition midi loops and fills in Drumcore's librarian/search results window and, when I find something I like, I drag it onto a midi track (that is routed to Drumcore via Rewire) in my project arrange window. I basically iterate on that process as I build a complete song.

Hope that made sense.
Old 18th May 2006 | Show parent
  #11
Lowdbrent
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzface777
lowdbrent, so you really enjoy it? Did you buy any drummer packs?
Sorry for the delay. Yes, I bought Sorum's drum pack. I love it. It is a great tool! I am hoping that they will expand the packs to include Mike Portnoy!!

BTW, I don't use the MIDI functions at all. I suppose that I will someday. For now I just export the wav loops to my playlist window and drag it in, while in Shuffle mode.
Old 18th May 2006 | Show parent
  #12
Lives for gear
 
DAWgEAR's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAWgEAR
... I have pre-ordered EZ Drummer. EZ Drummer will arrive tomorrow and I have high hopes for it.

...

I am anxiously awaiting EZ Drummer. Again, more so for the midi grooves.
Considering that I bought this product primarily for the midi grooves and groove library, I am disappointed. YMMV.
Old 20th May 2006 | Show parent
  #13
Lives for gear
 
fuzzface777's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
DAW, I bought drumtrax thanks!

What midi audio program do you favor? BFD or DFH?
Old 20th May 2006 | Show parent
  #14
Lives for gear
 
DAWgEAR's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Drumcore.

If you mean only between the two you mentioned, BFD.
Old 20th May 2006 | Show parent
  #15
Lives for gear
 
3 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
I use both Drumcore and Reason Drum Kit (RDK) in ProTools and both have their strengths. Drumcore is a fantastic librarian for drum loops. A bit awkward to get things in but making loops searchable by tempo (or other metadata you can choose) is really nice. For acoustic drum grooves this is my go to guy. That said it is quite tough for me to find grooves that match the songs I come up with well enough so I usually end up with MIDI.

For MIDI as the source Drumcore is quick and easy but RDK is much more realistic. Very nice tweakability in Reason as well. I use the Reason mixer for things like this but you could route all the parts out to different tracks in PT as well.

-Lee
Old 9th June 2006 | Show parent
  #16
Lives for gear
 
Tone Laborer's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Bump. Anymore Drumcore users? Comments?

How are the soft rock and country grooves? I'm confused on how it can be used as a loop sample or midi. The same sounds and drummers?

Does it have midi songs with verse 1, fill to chorus, bridge, etc.?
Old 9th June 2006 | Show parent
  #17
Lives for gear
 
pingu's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Yeah im interested in this also.
Old 9th June 2006 | Show parent
  #18
Lives for gear
 
DAWgEAR's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tone Laborer
How are the soft rock and country grooves?
I have the Lonnie Wilson expansion pack. I don't do country, but I like his grooves for a more traditional/softer/classic rock context. Some new Lonnie W content will be included with Drumcore 2, which is a free upgrade if you bought DC 1.x in 2006 and $49 otherwise.

For what you describe, and only considering the audio loop content, IMO Matt Sorum is too slammin, Ben Smith is more funky than I would like (but I love his midi kit!), Zoro is more funky, Alan White is more progressive, ... DC's audio content is perhaps a bit thin in this area. But you can take any midi loop (or import midi loops from outside sources) and use them with any of the existing midi kits. As I mentioned, Ben Smith's kit is very nice if you want a more traditional/softer rock sound. So you could play one of Matt Sorum's midi loops through Ben Smith's kit and you could get a rock beat that doesn't sound overly heavy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tone Laborer
I'm confused on how it can be used as a loop sample or midi. The same sounds and drummers?
The simple answer is yes. See above. For example, you get Ben Smith audio loops at various tempos which can be exported or drag&dropped into your host. In addition, you get midi loops of those groove (but, sadly, not the fills) and you get the kit(s) used so that you can use any midi data as well to trigger Ben Smith's kit. The midi kits are not an exact match sonically, but, with a bit of processing, you can get close. It's highly useful for adding single hits here and there such as an extra kick or a cymbal crash or adding 16th notes to an 8th note hihat pattern. It's less useful (because of the sonic differences) for transitioning from a pure audio loop top a pure midi triggered loop ... the ambience and other sonic properties will be slightly different. Again, processing can overcome some of the differences.

I use DC pretty much exclusively as a midi instrument. In other words, I basically don't use the audio loop content. The midi kits sound great. The only bummer is that the audio fills are not duplicated as midi fills. Only the main loops are provided in both formats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tone Laborer
Does it have midi songs with verse 1, fill to chorus, bridge, etc.?
DC, at least DC 1.5, is not really set up that way. It is one of the things I wish it had. Then again, do you necessarily need someone to tell you that the ride substituted for the hihat should be the chorus? It's debatable. But it would be nice to have more variations ... more choices are better in these kinds of situations!

Having said that, DC 2 is now shipping. It might be different. We'll know in a week or so.

One of the exciting things in DC 2 is separate outputs for the midi instrument kits. This should facilitate matching the midi kits to the audio loops since you will now be able to, for example, add compression and reverb only to the snare if that's what it takes to get a close match between the drummer's midi kit and his recorded audio loop.
Old 9th June 2006 | Show parent
  #19
Lives for gear
 
fuzzface777's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I bought drumtrax but when I drag a midi loop in PT it creates a MILLION markers! How do I fix this MESS??
Old 9th June 2006 | Show parent
  #20
Lives for gear
 
DAWgEAR's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
With Drumtrax, are you using 1-trk_type0?

There might be some cleaning up you need to do.
Old 10th June 2006 | Show parent
  #21
Lives for gear
 
fuzzface777's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
what do you mean? that is a folder name you typed....
Old 10th June 2006 | Show parent
  #22
Lives for gear
 
Tone Laborer's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Dawgear, thanks for the information. I listened to the loops on the Drumcore site. It seems like it'd be worth the price just for the Sly Dunbar stuff, and the drummie from Santana.

But...Some of the loops seemed busy. I think you had mentioned about how the midi grooves are sparse, the loops didn't seem that way. Of course, I was just listening to the few demos on their site.

So many drum loops put the kick on the one and 3and. Giving it a hip hop, modern rock, syncopated feel, which is cool, just don't do it on every loop. It's hard to find straight grooves. Drums on Demand are bad about this.

For instance, the Lonnie Wilson demo loops sounded nothing like country, WAY too syncopated. I guess that's why they expanded his stuff in version2.

It looks like a cool product overall, I'd like to hear more of the loops. Let us know how you like the improvements in DC2. Thanks.
Old 10th June 2006 | Show parent
  #23
Lives for gear
 
DAWgEAR's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tone Laborer
But...Some of the loops seemed busy. I think you had mentioned about how the midi grooves are sparse, the loops didn't seem that way. Of course, I was just listening to the few demos on their site.Let us know how you like the improvements in DC2. Thanks.
I guess busy vs. sparse is a subjective thing.

For example, while I greatly admire amd respect Terry Bozzio, there are two samples at DC's website that, as a songwriter, I would find so busy as to be unusable. Some of the Bozzio content will ship with DC 2 and there will be a Bozzio expansion pack, but if those two samples are representative, I will pass on the expansion pack.

Also, when you listen to the samples, some of them are fills (but you probably knew that). Most of the others do not sound overly busy to me, but YMMV.

Also, keep in mind that the audio content was re-recorded over and over at 5 to 10 bpm increments ... that "redundancy" makes up a good chunk of the 8GB of content and that's one of their big selling points: that the same drummer playing the same groove is going to sound different at 90 bpm than he would at 140 bpm. So if you hear a Sly Dunbar loop at 100bpm, it might sound quite different at 80bpm.

Like I said, I don't really use the audio loops, so that doesn't really benefit me. But for others, that might be a plus.

The midi loops pretty much parallel the audio loops, although this is not a perfect correlation (for example, a small number of audio loops have NO asociated midi loop, and of course none of the fills do). So, if you find the audiop loops too busy, you will probably feel the same way about the midi loops. Having said that, the beauty of midi is that you can go in and edit out the "busy" elements when you don't want them.

Also, the 700 or so "song loops" (these are independent of any of the "name" drummers) are pretty basic. But, again, that's my perception ... you might feel they are too busy as well. It's subjective.

For me, Drumcore really shines when you combine its midi kits, library functionality, and included midi loops with added extra third party midi content. In descending order of preference, I like Drumtrax, Beatboy, Groove Monkee, and SmartLoops. Of course that adds to the cost. But the midi loop products I mentioned average maybe $30 or $40, so it's still a pretty good deal.

I hope Submersible come out with a midi-only expansion pack. Hopefully with lots of fills, intros, and endings, and maybe other song construction elements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tone Laborer
Let us know how you like the improvements in DC2. Thanks.
Will do.

I'm watching for the UPS guy every day ... LOL!
Old 10th June 2006 | Show parent
  #24
Lives for gear
 
DAWgEAR's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Hey, Tone Laborer,

Regarding your comment that Lonnie Wilson's demo loops sounded nothing like country, it just occurred to me ... were you listening to (presumably) Lonnie's DC 2 included content sample demos

http://www.drumcore.com/TemplateDrum...x?contentId=49

or his drummer pack sample demos

http://www.drumcore.com/TemplateMain.aspx?contentId=47

or both?

I tend to agree on the former. Not sure on the latter. But I'm not really knowledgable when it comes to country.
Old 11th June 2006 | Show parent
  #25
Lives for gear
 
fuzzface777's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Hey Daw, why don't you help me out a little on this drumtrax and using it PT. Your suggestion is the reason I bought it!! :(
Old 11th June 2006 | Show parent
  #26
Lives for gear
 
DAWgEAR's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzface777
Hey Daw, why don't you help me out a little on this drumtrax and using it PT. Your suggestion is the reason I bought it!! :(
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAWgEAR
With Drumtrax, are you using 1-trk_type0?

There might be some cleaning up you need to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzface777
what do you mean? that is a folder name you typed....
You didn't order the Cakewalk version, did you?

Type 1 midi files have each channel's data on separate tracks, type 0 files have all channels' data on one track. If your are overwhelmed by the amount of tracks generated when you inport, you probably want the type 0 version. The note assignments correspond to the general midi standard.

Beyond that, you will get all of the bars for each "song" in one file. By "cleaning up", I mean that you can open the file in your midi editor and chop it up into 1 or 2 bar chunks ... or chunks that define a certain song element such as intro, verse, chorus. These break points are probably where the "markers" you are describing are. You can subsequently delete the markers ... I don't know how Pro Tools works, but in Cubase you select them all and hit the Del key ... no big deal.

If you want, you can slice up the files, save them as type 0, name them (e.g 120_Hard Rock_Verse_01.mid). It's a bit of work to do them all, about an afternoon's worth. Personally, I only did this for the fills.

Alternatively, what I do in Cubase is import the whole long files in to a few adjacent tracks (from Drumcore, but that doesn't matter) and then use the Range tool to highlight/select a section and copy/drag that to a single new track where I am compiling my final drum track. I take a bit from here, a bit from there ... When I'm done, I just delete all the "temporary" tracks that were storing the data I pulled from.

As I have told you, I do not use Pro Tools, so I do not know the specifics of its midi functionality and the terminology. But I am sure that there is some way to do what I have described.

We've had a few exchanges on this forum and via PMs. No offense, but it sounds like you might benefit from brushing up on what midi is and how it works. I sent you the name of a good book and there are many good free resources on the web: just google "midi tutorial" or "midi type 0", etc. A quick search turned up these (there may be some redundancy):


http://www.harmony-central.com/MIDI/Doc/tutorial.html
http://www.midi.org/about-midi/tutorial/tutor.shtml

http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip...midtutrl1.html

http://www.knowledgehound.com/topics/midi.htm

http://www.synthzone.com/synthhelp.htm

Also make sure you understand your DAW's manual as it relates to midi functionality -- a lot can be learned there.

Hope this helps. Good luck!
Old 11th June 2006 | Show parent
  #27
Lives for gear
 
dudleys100's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I have had both discrete drums and I have all of the drums on demand sets other than the new dry one. I personally prefer DOD. They are basically mixed from the get go and sound GREAT!!! They are a great price also.

They are organised very well also which makes it very fast to build your songs.
Old 12th June 2006 | Show parent
  #28
Lives for gear
 
Tone Laborer's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Regarding Lonnie Wilson, there were just 2 loops on their website. I'm not sure which set they were from. I have some beatboy midi files with Eddie Bayers. It's agout the best country I have. Waltzes, trains, slow 4/4, hard to program stuff. Actually it's impossible to me to program.

I'm looking for country, AC, americana, jazz, so I'm not the typical user.

A I understood, DC were putting more country grooves with Wilson in the Ver 2 set.

I'd probably use midi more, I don't like being locked into the mix of loops, but they can be convenient.
Old 12th June 2006 | Show parent
  #29
Lives for gear
 
DAWgEAR's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tone Laborer
Regarding Lonnie Wilson, there were just 2 loops on their website. I'm not sure which set they were from.
That was the page with demos of the new content in DC 2. There is another page with demos from LW's add-on drummer pack at

http://www.drumcore.com/TemplateMain.aspx?contentId=47

although, given what kind of country you describe, that might not be appropriate either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tone Laborer
I'm looking for country, AC, americana, jazz, so I'm not the typical user.
Not Drumcore's strong areas ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tone Laborer
I have some beatboy midi files with Eddie Bayers. It's agout the best country I have. Waltzes, trains, slow 4/4, hard to program stuff. Actually it's impossible to me to program.
I was recently turned on to Beatboy and bought their Rod Morgenstein and Nigel Olsson material. Good stuff! I'll have to look into Eddie Bayers.
Old 12th June 2006 | Show parent
  #30
Lives for gear
 
fuzzface777's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
THANKS DAWGEAR! It is was only the marker tabs that I was referring to. When I saw that, I basically got frustrated with it, but I just used it and seems to be ok!
I know that I can hide the marker ruler so not a big deal. BTW does anyone how to quickly remove markers in PT? Some of these drumtrax midi drum tracks litereally have 100 markers crammed together, while some markers are great, others are not needed.
πŸ“ Reply

Similar Threads

Thread / Thread Starter Replies / Views Last Post
replies: 4616 views: 615338
Avatar for smoke
smoke 7th May 2021
replies: 55 views: 32334
Avatar for IM WHO YOU THINK
IM WHO YOU THINK 13th October 2020
replies: 98 views: 39177
Avatar for dfghdhr
dfghdhr 5th June 2021
replies: 1296 views: 181786
Avatar for heraldo_jones
heraldo_jones 1st February 2016
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearspace Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…

Forum Jump
Forum Jump