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pro tools studio/sound
Old 28th August 2002
  #1
Lives for gear
 
catfish11's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
pro tools studio/sound

hey eneryone-
was in NYC now i'm back on a rock in the pacific, married .....whew!
statement-
seriously looking at pro tools hd
question-
will i be happy with the sound if i mix in pro tools?
i have been told that digi "fixed" the mixer, with more fixes on the way.
i have searched hi and low for an unbiased point of view and it is very hard to get it.
i would be extremly bummed if i put out 20,000.00 for pro tools and i ended up sounding worse than a 7,000.00 nuendo set up,
though i realize just the pro tools name is definetly worth some dough as far as geting business.

i will post my proposed set up-
pro tools hd2 w/192 i/o
control24
dual g4 mac
cranesong spider
millinea origin stt-1
2 disstressors
ksp8
plugs-
waves platinium
reverb1
autotune
mcdsp comp bank

mics-
neuman m149
2 neuman k184
neuman 103
royer 121
monitors-
genelec 1031

plus what i got now

i figure i can use the conversion on the spider if i want and
summ/mix through it if necessary into my other pc daw or loop back to pro tools, though i would like to mix in pro tools
any comments on this system ould be mightily appreciatd
i'm going into some heavy debt to have some fun...
i just want to make sure it's good, clean sounding fun------thanks to all and to all a good night!

P.S..... for all you native PC fans, my giant athlon machine is again at the computer fix-it place the 2 cd drives magically dissappeared
3 mobos later, 5 reloads of the operating system later, $4,000 later
that list represents about 40k american- would you want a dfegadbill gates/microsoft product to be the bedrock on which to place that kind of investment?
just asking.
yuktyy
Old 28th August 2002
  #2
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
The Pro Tools mix bus has been improving and Jules really likes the Dangerous 2-buss with a 16 output mix system. Forget about reverb plug-ins with the possible exception of Altiverb. Even then, you might want to use a dedicated computer for it.

I'd seriously consider one alternative approach. That would be to get the Digi 002 system instead of the HD system. Now invest the $18,000 you just saved in better monitors (check out Dynaudio, Quested and Adam,) a high-end D to A converter for monitoring such as the DB systems modular, a Manley Slam, some better mikes, a Quantec Yardstick reverb, a second great outboard reverb unit and a killer headphone system. You also should get a Z-systems router to tie all the digital gear together. If you can get along with 32 tracks, this system should seriously trounce a HD system and yet be totally compatible.
Old 28th August 2002
  #3
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
I like Bob's idea alot. The cue system is a good call, one of the most unrecognized tools that can help the quality of your albums. Or toss the money into room treatment. Or into lounge facilities. Or backline gear. Or diversifying the mic cabinet or outboard. All this stuff probably matters more than the diff between Digi002 and HD.

Bear
Old 29th August 2002
  #4
Lives for gear
 
e-cue's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
There's a slight settling in period, after that you should be fine. If you tell people you mix in protools, they'll swear they can tell. If you tell them you mix on analog, they use buzzwords like "warm", and "Depth". It IS different, so you have to change mindsets a bit, but I think you'll do fine once you get over the learning curve. Plus, if you can charge rentals on this, you'll make your money back on the investment anyway.
Old 29th August 2002
  #5
Founder
 
Jules's Avatar
Bobs idea is great,

If you are tracking many inputs at once (like a kit) you will not be able to send into PT 8 ch from the Spider above 48k.. the damn light pipe doesnt go higher on the 002. (you are golden at 96k for individual mono / stereo overdubs but then a Spider would be a waste of $$$ you could just get a Hedd or DB tech as Bob suggested)

However the 32 tracks of 48k Spider audio might be fine for you. You could work on outside created 96k sessions and use the Spider at 96k I suppose.

So how many sound sources will you record at one time on average?


002
ADAM SA3A's
Sony Oxford plug in EQ + GML option (total must for PT)
Very fancy stereo 96k a/d + d/a converters
Old 29th August 2002
  #6
Gear Guru
 
thethrillfactor's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Don't know if you'll like it or not(that is a personal choice). But in my opinion, it is a definite improvement. I am as picky and anal when it comes to sound as the next guy, and I was totally impressed. I did my first mix the other day in it(70 tracks), and i was blown away how well it came together. That nasty 2 dimensional sound is now gone, and instead you get something much bigger and realistic. Now just to quantify my opinion, I rarely use that many plug ins(I think used a couple of the digi EQ's) and I use a lot of analog gear(I own racks and racks of stuff like everybody else), also I compress the two buss in the analog realm(Crane Song 192 through compressor). But I was doing this before on the "old Mix Plus". The only two things that made me go hmmm were 1) I know in the new architecture when you split from 32 voices to 64 and up, the processing remains the same, but I thought I heard a difference when I was experimenting. It was veru slight, but maybe its just me looking for something. 2) With the new 192 interfaces the delays going from analog/digital and back are twice as long. And the book's numbers are not quite as accurate(found this out the hard way). So you are still doing all kinds of ****ing of sample delays(rats!!!). But other than that, Digi has hit a home run with this system.
Old 29th August 2002
  #7
Gear Guru
 
thethrillfactor's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
So you are still doing all kinds of ****ing of sample delays(rats!!!). But other than that, Digi has hit a home run with this system.

Sorry i meant to write shifting of sample delays. Don't want anyone to try the other.lolgrggt
Old 29th August 2002
  #8
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Unfortunately 002 is still not out yet. The one question I have is what "gotchas" may arise when running outboard converters with it.

Still, great reverb and great monitors make a huge difference. The "right" settings on cheaper gear will beat the wrong settings on the "high priced spread" every time.
Old 30th August 2002
  #9
Lives for gear
 
catfish11's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
thanks for all the input
in have decided on pro tools hd, finally.
i admit i am shallow and taken in by gimmicks
besides the fact of the name, the software's abilities (i.e. beat detective) i think the control24 looks cool- very important in today's marketplace to look cool! much more important than substance it would appear ...................just kidding:-)
besides the faders might actually work, as opposed to that midi/usb B.S.
they also have greater accuracy, so i am told- a personal peeve i have always had with any software i've used
i am betting that digi wants to remain top dog and will do what is neccessary to stay there, (i.e. the mixing buss)
i have heard rumours that there will be further improvements
i currently have alot of backside gear and will be getting more-
this purchase is for the BIG stuff-
my rooms are a different budget altogether
i am curious about other monitors however, i am limited on what i can hear out here, i've been told there are better choices than genelcs for the money
i like the look of the adams sr3's (?)
but i am also intrigued by the sundholm's....
any and all opinions appreciated

hopefully in 3-4 months i will have a pretty cool space so let me know if any of you folks are coming to maui, and feel like track'n on the all new, all bitch'n........ PROTOOLS HD.....neath the gently swaying palms of beautiful hawaii
Old 30th August 2002
  #10
Founder
 
Jules's Avatar
Aloha!
Old 2nd September 2002
  #11
Gear Addict
 
Greg Heimbecker's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
catfish- good luck with the journey!

Thrill- what are you clocking the HD system with?

Finally got our HD system up and running friday after waiting for 10 weeks for Digi to build the 192s. I'm rather amazed that they " didn't anticipate the demand" at the end of the trade up deadline. I tried to be prudent in scheduling 6 weeks between ordering and control room rebuild but still had to wait another month for Digi's hardware. At least I had the presence of mind to leave the Mix+ rig on the patchbay until HD arrived.

We're in the process of changing over from what was a 56x8 Mackie/32trk Adat/16 I/O Mix+/Aardsync II) rig to Control 24/HD 2 with a bunch of great pres and channel strips driving 2 192s and 2 Mtytek 8x96 ADCs. I'm delighted to have 32 ch of great sounding converter inputs at 96K, enough for a big band or chamber orchestra.

This weekend I've been doing a lot of listening to older sessions, CDs and Jam files of past mixes to get a bead on what my monitoring environment is like now. I patched the CD into HD via Spdif and heard way more info than I've gotten from our dual 15" Tannoys in the past, very nice, a big smile crept across my face. Better extension at the ends of the frequency spectrum, tighter bottom, better imaging, a more "relaxed" feel to everything. I'd meant to get some work done but I just listened to a ton of stuff instead.

Saturday I went back in to get some stuff done and started listening again. I started moving the Myteks into the converter rack in the control room from their previous home in the machine room and just for grins tried clocking the 192s from one via Tdif. HOLY ****!!! More detail, imaging in much sharper focus and soundstage depth got about 3 times deeper, warmth in the low mids without obscuring detail in any way. What I previously had to "live with" from the Tannoys has very quickly turned into one of my favorite listening environments (the A room at Airshow is pretty amazing...). I'd not had a great DAC in here previously and I'm pleasantly surprised at what our 215 DMT IIs are capable of after listening to them for 7 years!

So what are you guys using as your clock for your HD rigs?

...and since this is GEARSLUTZ... our front end now consists of:
6ch of API 512c (and a pair of 550a)
10ch of Millenia HV3
2ch Great River MP2-NV
2ch Millenia Orign (pretty huge w/the Tele tubes)
1ch Manley Voxbox
3ch Avalon 737
2ch DW Fearn VT-2
2ch Avalon 2022
4ch Focusrite Red1

and for quick and stupid gigs like HS big bands there are always the 16ch of Focusrite on the control 24.

We also added a Massive Passive and are awaiting a Hedd-192.

So after what should have been a relaxed 2.5 week changeover turned into a 5 week(crossing fingers/knocking on wood) adventure I'm almost ready to get down to some work. It would sure help if TC would get done with rewriting Megaverb(which I quite like and depend on) and BF would finish their stuff... Oh well, by the beginning of next year everyone will be on board... I just don't want to have to go back to using the PCM 70 as my primary verb for months. I'll post some pics later if anyone is interested.

650' of Mogami 8 pr later,
Greg Heimbecker
University of Northern Colorado Recording Studio
Old 2nd September 2002
  #12
Lives for gear
 
adam_w's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
UNC ? UNC ?!! Ahh..I remember visting a friend up there and him getting alcohol poisoning and eating charcoal busicuits in Greeley in 1987. It used to smell of death. Does it still ? Well, I think you''ll really like HD, and there is NO problem mixing in the box. If you can't, you need to try harder. I personally think you university kids should be recording on wax cylinder or up there, maybe cow pats (well..they are disc shaped), like we used to back in the day, but you'll like HD. It sounds really nice, and the extra DSP is handy, although perversely you'll need less as the stuff sounds better. Now be a good boy, n' send people over to Avalanche or Sound Set in Denver !


Old 3rd September 2002
  #13
Founder
 
Jules's Avatar
Cool news Greg!

I may go HD soon

Jules

rollz
Old 3rd September 2002
  #14
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
if you live in hawaii and get married... where do you go for a honeymoon?
Old 3rd September 2002
  #15
Old 3rd September 2002
  #16
Gear Addict
 
Greg Heimbecker's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Adam,

At 44 I don't quite qualify as "you university kids" and Avalanche disappeared many years ago...
Colorado Sound along with Rocky Mtn Recorders are still going strong and there's lots of interesting new stuff going on. A new mix room at Airshow and 2 more cool little rooms in that same building along with Wind Over the Earth. One of which is Gus Skinas of Sony's SACD program, oh to paw through old masters with great gear.

I spent some more time playing clock games with HD this afternoon and found the Aardsync to offer yet another version of reality yielding a thicker, "tougher" bass than the Mytek clock while the Mytek had a tremendous liquid midrange and up. Very interesting... can't wait for the Hedd-192 to get here to add to the fun!

Greg Heimbecker

ps. and yes it still smells like death, at least on tuesdays when they burn the blood!
Old 3rd September 2002
  #17
Gear Guru
 
thethrillfactor's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Hi Greg, congrats on the HD and the front end!!! Right now I am digging the Lucid 192, the best outboard clock around. I actually retired my Aardvark(sigh!!!), but it actually sounds better to my ears. But you know what clocks are a funny a thing, according to Digi their own clock is the most stable around(according to their tests) and they said that each outboard clock they tried amplified jitter. So in the digital world, its actually the type of jitter and what it does to the sound, that determines what is musical to our ears. Kinda like the analog world and how different units color the sound.
Old 3rd September 2002
  #18
Gear Guru
 
thethrillfactor's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Oh yeah Greg, one last thing. If you want to improve the sound of your DMT215's there are (3) things that help:1) Change the wires inside the speakers 2)You can have some one reconfigure the crossover inside the speaker 3) The amplifier is really important if you want them to fire properly. I like a Mark Levinson ML20 amplifier with them. Good Luck!!
Old 3rd September 2002
  #19
Lives for gear
 
e-cue's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by thethrillfactor
Hi Greg, congrats on the HD and the front end!!! Right now I am digging the Lucid 192, the best outboard clock around. I actually retired my Aardvark(sigh!!!), but it actually sounds better to my ears. But you know what clocks are a funny a thing, according to Digi their own clock is the most stable around(according to their tests) and they said that each outboard clock they tried amplified jitter. So in the digital world, its actually the type of jitter and what it does to the sound, that determines what is musical to our ears. Kinda like the analog world and how different units color the sound.
The jitter you get from these boxes (Aardsync, etc) basically introduces super top end distortion (in the form of samples), which tricks the human ear into thinking there's more stuff going on up there. Next time you clock to one of these boxes, hit an E string, and let it ring out... You'll hear a bunch of weird 'steps' as it fades out. I can't vouche for the Lucid192 because I haven't done tests with it, but everyone I talk to that uses it seems to dig it.
Old 7th September 2002
  #20
Registered User
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Greg Heimbecker

University of Northern Colorado Recording Studio
Hi Greg -

I'm in the Denver/Boulder area. I'm an old school analog guy from NYC. I got out of the biz a few years ago to startup a Dot com and am now taking on some sessions again. What's your take on the Colorado scene? I'm considering setting up a small HD room. I'm just curious as if the room's sustainable here in Colorado.

That's assuming I can get over my phobias of not sitting behind a big Neve or SSL driving a 2" Studer (the world I'm used to).

Thanks,

Thomas
Old 11th September 2002
  #21
Bob
Gear Head
 
🎧 15 years
I guess Bob's idea would also work starting with a protools mix3 system instead of the digi002?

Another Bob.
Old 11th September 2002
  #22
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Hey, other Bob. I would be cautious about getting a Mix system at this point in the game due to the uncertainty of future support by Digi and their developers. If you're already using one, you might want to stick w/ the investement you have already made, but I'd worry about buying an obsolete product at this point in the game. Not speaking of the relative virtues of the system, just support. Then again, my studio is 100% obsolete, so who am I to talk.

Bear
Old 12th September 2002
  #23
Bob
Gear Head
 
🎧 15 years
Hello Bear,

I've already got a mix system, and you are quite right this is no time to invest in it further. However, it has always served me well and I'd like to hang on to it for a while. I do like the idea though of investing more in outboard stuff rather than HD which I am sure will also be obsolete in 2 years. At least good outboard stuff does have a somewhat longer lifespan. My problem however is the sentence "the protools mixbus has improved" in Bob's first message. This has not improved in mix3 of course and I was wondering if it is better in a digi002. That might be a reason why Bob's suggestion would make sence in the digi002 setup and not so much in my mix3 setup.

Thanks for your thougths.

Cheers, Bob.

PS Are you a friendly bear?
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