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Gain-staging and plug-ins
Old 5th April 2011 | Show parent
  #211
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
You're getting way ahead of yourself. Nobody cares about a specific RMS level, and people only care about how loud the final song is in the very final stage of mastering.

While you are recording and mixing, there will be tons of headroom with a very low RMS. It can be a huge problem if anything is too hot before the very end of the mastering process.

So put meters and numbers out of your head and just record and mix. If something really is too dynamic, it will present itself as sounding perhaps too sparse, or too percussive. You will hear the problem and it will be corrected in the normal course of mixing.
Old 5th April 2011 | Show parent
  #212
Gear Guru
 
12ax7's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edzeppelin ➡️

right now my rms is -24 and the peak is -6...so if I boost the rms to -18, then I'll be peaking right at 0. Most of you said that the dynamic range I am recording is fine. But if I want the RMS higher, then compression and limiting is the answer? Thanks.
Well, yeah. A compressor/limiter will typically raise the RMS.

...However, I would recommend using compressors to get the sound you want, and then measure the RMS LATER (if you're curious about it).

.
Old 5th April 2011 | Show parent
  #213
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Hardtoe's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I care about individual tracks RMS all the time when I am mixing - drums too pokey? Bass fading in and out?

I think he is just asking about evening tracks out which are too dynamic to mix properly.

After you have tracked using your available headroom to capture the source as desired and without distortion, one certainly may start compressing and/or limiting to get things sitting right in the mix.
Old 5th April 2011 | Show parent
  #214
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardtoe ➡️
I care about individual tracks RMS all the time when I am mixing - drums too pokey? Bass fading in and out?

I think he is just asking about evening tracks out which are too dynamic to mix properly.

After you have tracked using your available headroom to capture the source as desired and without distortion, one certainly may start compressing and/or limiting to get things sitting right in the mix.

Exactly, Hardtoe...I'm just referring to individual tracks when recording. Some are too dynamic when coming in. Any tips for minimizing dynamics when recording tracks? Don't want to kill dynamics because they are good, but just minimizing slightly. Player performance? Mic positioning? Preamp selection? Sometimes distorted guitars are peaking at -10 or -12, and the RMS is down at -30. Unless you all think that sounds about right? Thanks again.

Last edited by Edzeppelin; 5th April 2011 at 09:57 PM..
Old 5th April 2011 | Show parent
  #215
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardtoe ➡️
I care about individual tracks RMS all the time when I am mixing - drums too pokey? Bass fading in and out?
Well, now I'm venturing into picky semantics, but that's what I meant. When mixing you care about pokey drums. You care about a disappearing bass.

So you use your compressor to fix the pokey drums and you program a fader ride to keep the bass in the mix. Both of those tasks are just normal mixing procedures. You were thinking "less pokey", not thinking at all about RMS.

So the RMS works itself out entirely by the end of the process, and yet you never actually thought about RMS itself.
Old 5th April 2011 | Show parent
  #216
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Hardtoe's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheebs Goat ➡️
So the RMS works itself out entirely by the end of the process, and yet you never actually thought about RMS itself.

Actually I do - you apparently don't
Old 5th April 2011 | Show parent
  #217
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Huh.

Now I'm curious. To what end? I can't imagine numbers being involved in the mix process. How does your thinking go?
Old 5th April 2011 | Show parent
  #218
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Hardtoe's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edzeppelin ➡️
Exactly, Hardtoe...I'm just referring to individual tracks when recording. Some are too dynamic when coming in. Any tips for minimizing dynamics when recording tracks? Don't want to kill dynamics because they are good, but just minimizing slightly. Player performance? Mic positioning? Preamp selection? Sometimes distorted guitars are peaking at -10 or -12, and the RMS is down at -30. Unless you all think that sounds about right? Thanks again.

I don't actually think about it in terms of exact levels - I just make sure that there is enough headroom to avoid issues - If I track something a little hot or weak, I just trim it up before I start mixing.

You can try micing from further away, which helps even out quick transients.

Also, It can save a lot of time to get some kind of nice hardware comp for tracking - this way you get the tone/action of the comp on the way in, which helps even everything out and leaves less to do with plugins, which works much better for me when going for maximum sonic quality (along with all the other tips in this thread about ITB gainstaging).
Old 5th April 2011 | Show parent
  #219
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Hardtoe's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheebs Goat ➡️
Huh.

Now I'm curious. To what end? I can't imagine numbers being involved in the mix process. How does your thinking go?
"Uh, this is part too pokey - I gotta massage it out so the rms is more even throughout the track."

Or something like that....
Old 5th April 2011 | Show parent
  #220
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Ah so it is just semantics. Sounds like our thought processes are similar but the word itself is simply different in my head. I think "fix pokey".
Old 7th April 2011
  #221
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
You can try micing from further away, which helps even out quick transients.

Also, It can save a lot of time to get some kind of nice hardware comp
Makes sense to mic further away.

How would I hook up a hardware compressor to my board which just has a single 1/4" insert on each channel? Use a y-cable? The board is a zed r16.

Thanks
Old 26th December 2014 | Show parent
  #222
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedsMoreFuzz ➡️
Mellotronic - I'm an artist as well as an engineer ---- if you have a read at my recent posts, I've been really rather against all these trim plugins (unless I'm mixing something tracked by someone else, and the tracks are too hot) ---- like I have now said several times, imo, if you're tracking it right in the first place, you don't need them.
Your posts all make sense in this thread apart from you're causing confusing for many people by constantly assuming that every project is "tracked" - consdering their are electronic music genres, urban music, in fact over 50% of music released has no "tracking" stage at all. Many are using samples, soft synths, sound generation sources in the box.

Maschine outputs at 0dbfs, Kontakt too, most libraries at maximised in volume, most sample packs are. So you do indeed need the trim plugin for these.

I totally understand what you're saying "I'm against using a trim" because you're referring to people recording a band and they should be hitting -18dbfs during tracking - but you're not specifying this, you're just saying "I don't agree with trim plugins" so the EDM producer is reading this and not understanding why he can't use a trim plugin when everyone is telling him to turn down his Sylenth to -18dbfs because when he's hitting Slate Digital VCC collection at 0dbfs he's overloading their modelling circuit.

Again Ethan earlier in the thread talks about nulling against a digital EQ - yes very good, it does, but again its confusing people trying to learn. Lots and lots of analog emulation plugins expect -18dbfs at the input stage these days, so to throw reckless abandon out there and tell people "its ok its all 32bit float anyway, all plugins are digital, don't clip the master out" isn't fair.

Put simply anyone writing, producing and mixing as they go modern music without a tracking stage (or one that simply records vocals and an instrument or two) wants to be either trimming their audio plugin sources or at the least tuning down their output stage so they don't go over -18dbfs for their analog emulation plugin chains.
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