The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
Using pink noise to burn in speakers?
Old 3rd November 2010
  #1
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
Using pink noise to burn in speakers?

My new Adam A8X's just arrived, and on Adam's website they recommend at least one week for burn-in, using music of different kinds at different levels (with a broad frequency spectrum).

I was wondering if it'd make any sense to use pink noise for the task?
Old 3rd November 2010
  #2
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Klein and Hummel advise a recommended burn-in period of 72 hours with pink noise @ 85dB.

ns
Old 3rd November 2010 | Show parent
  #3
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightscope ➑️
Klein and Hummel advise a recommended burn-in period of 72 hours with pink noise @ 85dB.

ns
Would it be possible to, say, place the speakers in my sofa and cover them with something. I have a feeling my neighbours will not appreciate 72 hours of screaming-level noise (neither will I, think I'll be camping out at my girlfriend's over the weekend ;P ). The ventilation will of course be the issue, so I'll have to find some way to make sure that the speakers don't overheat.
Old 3rd November 2010 | Show parent
  #4
Gear Guru
 
John Willett's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightscope ➑️
Klein and Hummel advise a recommended burn-in period of 72 hours with pink noise @ 85dB.
Where did you read this?

When I last spoke to the Neumann/K+H Product Manager about this, he said they did not need running in at all and any difference over a very long period is less than 0.5dB.

Just curious...
Old 3rd November 2010 | Show parent
  #5
Lives for gear
 
sound_music's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightscope ➑️
Klein and Hummel advise a recommended burn-in period of 72 hours with pink noise @ 85dB.

ns
i'd be interested to see documentation on this too, i've always thought a playing varied source material at differing levels as much as you can in the first week or 2 (as suggested by ADAM) was the best way to go about it. it does take a week or two though.

maybe this pink noise thing is a good shortcut? dunno...
Old 3rd November 2010 | Show parent
  #6
Gear Guru
 
John Willett's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by sound_music ➑️
maybe this pink noise thing is a good shortcut? dunno...
Pink noise contains all frequencies.
Old 3rd November 2010 | Show parent
  #7
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sargaroth ➑️
Would it be possible to, say, place the speakers in my sofa and cover them with something. I have a feeling my neighbours will not appreciate 72 hours of screaming-level noise (neither will I, think I'll be camping out at my girlfriend's over the weekend ;P ). The ventilation will of course be the issue, so I'll have to find some way to make sure that the speakers don't overheat.
Don't know. Sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett ➑️
Where did you read this?

When I last spoke to the Neumann/K+H Product Manager about this, he said they did not need running in at all and any difference over a very long period is less than 0.5dB.

Just curious...
Hi, J.

Over here.

Klein + Hummel O 300 D 3-Way Active Studio Monitors, Monte Vallier

ns
Old 3rd November 2010
  #8
Gear Guru
 
🎧 20 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sargaroth ➑️
My new Adam A8X's just arrived, and on Adam's website they recommend at least one week for burn-in, using music of different kinds at different levels (with a broad frequency spectrum).

I was wondering if it'd make any sense to use pink noise for the task?
pink noise has no loud transients, which I would imagine would be something actually loosens up the drivers, if that's something they need.

Unless your studio only records flutes, playing 'various kinds of music at various levels with a broad frequency spectrum' strikes me as exactly equivalent to "using" the damn speakers

It makes me wonder what is really being burned in here- the speakers or the new owner's ears?
Old 3rd November 2010 | Show parent
  #9
Gear Guru
 
John Willett's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett ➑️
Where did you read this?

When I last spoke to the Neumann/K+H Product Manager about this, he said they did not need running in at all and any difference over a very long period is less than 0.5dB.

Just curious...
Quote:
Interesting.....

The link says:-
Quote:
After putting the speakers through a recommended burn-in period (pink noise @ 85dB for 72 hours)
He does not say that K+H recommended it, just that someone did.

And, after reading the O300D Owners Manual, I notice it makes no mention at all about burning-in the monitors.

Maybe, someone recommended it to him and he just uses it for all monitors.
Old 3rd November 2010 | Show parent
  #10
Lives for gear
 
O.F.F.'s Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Speaker drivers are the one item were 'burn in' actually can make sense.
The mechanical suspension does need some time of operating for it to soften. Fresh out of a box a bass driver will not reach as low as specced.
Some speaker/monitor manufacturers run them in as part of the testing, others don't.
A few hours within the speakers operating margin will do, no speaker will need 72hrs.

If you want to do it yourself to ensure operation to spec place the speakers facing each other as close as possible and invert the signal to one of them to avoid annoying you or the neighbours.
Old 3rd November 2010 | Show parent
  #11
Lives for gear
 
riffwraith's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Guys - shouldn't one follow the manufacturer's reccomendation? And might it not vary?

When I bougth my B&W speakers years ago, I called them about break-in. I forget what the time frame that they gave me was, but they said it was in fact a good idea, and that I should just run music through them at a decent level.

Pro monitors designed for studio use might be different, but again, if it were me, I would contact the manufacturer.

Cheers.
Old 3rd November 2010 | Show parent
  #12
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Some speakers break in more than other and it may well take many hours before they settle.

This is a real phenomena which is easily shown with measurements.

Spiders, surrounds, glue joints and the cone/dome itself always changes to some degree.


If you are worried about disturbing your neighbour.. place the speakers close to eachother face to face and and flip the polarity to one.. ;-)

Take it easy, in some cases you may see increased distortion if you push the speakers to hard initially.


/Peter
Old 3rd November 2010 | Show parent
  #13
Gear Guru
 
theblue1's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett ➑️
Pink noise contains all frequencies.
But, if the break-in concept is similar to why you break-in the piston assemblies of a car -- and the analogies are almost irresistable, both pistons, etc -- then pink noise would probably be contraindicated, since it seems like you would want to break in the pistons (speakers) using a variety of throws and frequencies -- not one big noise soup that mixes everything up until its a steady state stream of pink noise.

But I'm just thinkin' out loud.
Old 3rd November 2010 | Show parent
  #14
Lives for gear
 
PlatinumSamples's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightscope ➑️
Klein and Hummel advise a recommended burn-in period of 72 hours with pink noise @ 85dB.

ns
I would be very concerned that the heat build up would damage the coils.

Rail
Old 3rd November 2010 | Show parent
  #15
Lives for gear
 
sound_music's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq ➑️
pink noise has no loud transients, which I would imagine would be something actually loosens up the drivers, if that's something they need.
that what i was thinking/wondering too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett ➑️
Pink noise contains all frequencies.
true, but it doesn't really address the transient issue, which i think is probably the important part.
Old 3rd November 2010 | Show parent
  #16
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett ➑️
Maybe, someone recommended it to him and he just uses it for all monitors.
Yeah. False alarm, folks. Stand down.

Anway, with mah 0300D's I just didn't turn 'em up too loud for a coupla weeks.

ns
Old 3rd November 2010 | Show parent
  #17
Gear Addict
 
bringmewater's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Break em in with nickelback darkhorse.
Old 4th November 2010 | Show parent
  #18
Lives for gear
 
plexisys's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Friends of mine at JBL always told me to just play a variety of styles music with a good variety of dynamics and frequencies for 2 or 3 days at a moderate volume. Don't crank it.

Pink noise doesn't have any real dynamics that will cause the changes that the speaker needs to break in.
Old 4th November 2010 | Show parent
  #19
Lives for gear
 
andrew montreal's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Be careful when you do your burning-in by facing the two together and putting one out of phase... although alot cancels out, some doesn't... and consider how close they are together, there's going to be funny stuff happening in the highs. Maybe I'm paranoid... well, maybe my paranoia spreads to this issue as well, but I always put earplugs on when I go near my monitors while they're doing their burn-in time.

If you want to add transient action to this, could can simply add another pink noise track that only spurts out little bits. Never tried it but it might help.

Andrew
Old 4th November 2010 | Show parent
  #20
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlatinumSamples ➑️
I would be very concerned that the heat build up would damage the coils.

Rail
A decent speaker takes 1/2 W to reach 85dB @ 1 meter.

They can handle this for all eternity and the power is divided between the drivers in a multiway speaker.

My latest woofer purchase is the alu 10" woofers from Scan Speak. They test them with 170W RMS noise for 100 hours (IEC).

Tweeters obviously has poor thermal capacity compared to woofers and big midrange drivers though so be careful with the spectrum of program material when testing speakers or breaking them in.


/Peter
Old 4th November 2010 | Show parent
  #21
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
When will people stop with this garbage, you CAN NOT burn in speakers any more than you can fall off the edge of the flat world.

It's been proven scientifically in I don't know how many tests, obviously the manufacturers will tell you it's a good idea as it gives you enough time to become habituated to there product so you don't notice any flaws.


Anyway, until next time somebody asks about breaking in speakers or digital cables or putting magic stones on there cd player............
Old 5th November 2010 | Show parent
  #22
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
Oh, and I was just preparing to go on holiday to Italy for 10 days and leaving my speakers on at 85 dB with the whole of my iTunes playlist going.
Old 5th November 2010 | Show parent
  #23
Gear Guru
 
theblue1's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majestikc ➑️
When will people stop with this garbage, you CAN NOT burn in speakers any more than you can fall off the edge of the flat world.

It's been proven scientifically in I don't know how many tests,
obviously the manufacturers will tell you it's a good idea as it gives you enough time to become habituated to there product so you don't notice any flaws.


Anyway, until next time somebody asks about breaking in speakers or digital cables or putting magic stones on there cd player............
I'm always glad to find someone even more cynical than me. heh

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sargaroth ➑️
Oh, and I was just preparing to go on holiday to Italy for 10 days and leaving my speakers on at 85 dB with the whole of my iTunes playlist going.
Be careful you don't come home to find that the neighbors have all surreptitiously banded together and hired one of the local juvenile delinquents to remove the provocation... heh
Old 5th November 2010 | Show parent
  #24
Gear Guru
 
FFTT's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Buy or rent the DVD "Peter Gabriel Still Growing Up Live and Unwrapped".

Play "Red Rain" and see how they hold up to Tony Levin's punch.
Old 5th November 2010 | Show parent
  #25
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majestikc ➑️
When will people stop with this garbage, you CAN NOT burn in speakers any more than you can fall off the edge of the flat world.

It's been proven scientifically in I don't know how many tests, obviously the manufacturers will tell you it's a good idea as it gives you enough time to become habituated to there product so you don't notice any flaws.


Anyway, until next time somebody asks about breaking in speakers or digital cables or putting magic stones on there cd player............
A speaker driver with a certain motor has an output that depends on moving mass and compliance (basically suspension stifness). Obviously the baffle and (if used) box will influence greatly as well.

If you increase moving mass you change the frequency response. In the mass controlled area above system resonance you decrease sensitivity and lower, around resonance, you increase output. The reason for increased output around resonance is that the damping of the system - the Q - changes.

If you measure the T/S (Thiele and Small) parameters of a driver you find some values that are called Fs (free air resonance), VAS (equivalent volume of air) and Q (sum of electrical and mechanical damping of the moving system).

The frequency response depends on these parameters/values. Change on parameter and you change frequency response.


Now, breaking in a speaker obviously does not change moving mass but you do change the properties of the spider, surround and flexible cones/domes.

To what degree these parts changes depends on what they are made of but you will always see some change and sometimes it's very big. Big enough to cause changes of several dB in some range.

If you add mass (as mentioned above) you also change Fs, it creeps down lower in frequency.

If you replace the motor with a stronger or weaker magnet you se an effect on Bl (force factor) which also have an effect on frequency response.


Or the short story: you are talking out of your behind.


/Peter
Old 5th November 2010 | Show parent
  #26
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Whatever, keep on spreading the garbage.

All that stuff you mentioned has been shown to fluctuate......within less of a second from signal being sent to the driver, and it has also been shown that it fluctuates again when stopped and returns to normal.

So yes speaker burn in does occur, for about the first second of use.

Anyway, at the end of the day does it really matter, if your using your speakers or headphones they will get "burned" in anyway, and if speeding up the so called process makes you feel better then do it.
Old 5th November 2010 | Show parent
  #27
Lives for gear
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Then old running in of speakers myth - this is what I wrote about this some time ago and I see no reason to change my opinion -

Many years ago, all car engines had to be run in for about 1,000 miles. At the end of this period, the customer brought the car to the dealer and there the various bolts were tightened up and the oil was changed.

This arrangement was far from ideal, some people were more careful than others and some dealers did a better job than others, so one engine manufacturer used a computer programme to run the engines against dummy hydraulic loads to simulate 1,000 miles of perfect running in driving. Then the engines were put into the cars and no running in was required.

Customers complained and were mystified. How can a car already be run in? That does not make any sense!

So this particular manufacturer did a test. They told a group of customers that they had to run in the engines with religious care and they were even given totally over-the-top instructions on what to do. There was of course absolutely no point to it, they were perfectly run-in already.

Another group was told to just drive. They were told the truth, there was no need to run them in, a computer programme had already done a far better job than any customer could have achieved.

These two test groups were revisited over the next few years and there future choice of cars and overall behaviour as customers was observed. The results were really surprising - not only did the run-in cars have slightly fewer faults than the non-run-in cars, but the customers expressed greater satisfaction with them and were significantly more likely to buy the same brand the next time.

The testers came to the conclusion that by actively involving the customer in the care of the car right at the beginning, an emotional bond had been created. This in turn, meant that they took greater care of the vehicle, drove more carefully and enjoyed the experience more.

Monitors are high quality (we hope!) hi-fi speakers. In the main, all monitor manufacturers are also manufacturers of hi-fi speakers and put exactly the same drivers in both types. The only differences are marketing and sometimes that the studio monitors also contain amps and crossovers to make them active.

With one or two minor exceptions, all driver cones are made of materials that, to all intents and purposes, do not fatigue. For example KEF and B&W use glass-fibre and most paper cones are impregnated with various substances, such as epoxy resins and UV resins that prevent warping and bending and also counteract the effects of fatigue that paper alone would otherwise be subject to.

I have fatigue tested and repaired many, many speakers in my lifetime and the only places where a speaker driver gets damaged is on the suspension and on the coil. Over time, the suspension can wear down (paper) or rot and crack (rubber). A change in the sound only takes place when the suspension is badly damaged. Even a cracked rubber surround is not audible until that crack goes all the way through the material, from front to rear, in which case the speaker will start to buzz at certain frequencies.

Some manufacturers actually tell their customers that by running in their speakers, they are making them more pliant. In the case of glass fibre and epoxy resin impregnated cones (and remember that is nearly all of them) there is no bending and they are carefully constructed to avoid bending anywhere other than at the suspension. A driver is suspended at the throat and at the outer edge of the cone. In a hi-fi or monitor driver, both are extremely soft and pliant, so that the only effective resistance to movement is air. This is done to improve the response rate (the ability to mirror the incoming signal accurately).

All hi-fi and monitor drivers for mid and bass have soft suspensions such as a rubber surround or a cloth surround that allows the driver to move forward and back fully and completely, like a piston. The main factors that decide the sound of a speaker is the mass and size of the cone and the compliance of the air mass to the front and to the rear. All these are a given. You could drive that speaker for 100 years and the air, the diameter and the weight of the cone will be the same. The same rules apply to the tweeter, which works as a fully enclosed system.

There is one type and one type only of speaker that I have seen that changes its characteristics over time and that is the stiff-suspension guitar cab driver.

In these, the suspension used to be made of the same materials as the cone, i.e. paper and with time, the whole cone and suspension would become softer texture when the fibres separated as the whole thing vibrated.

The changes are slight. We tested the changes that occurred over time with a stroboscope, so that we could see the bending take place. A stiff-suspension causes the driver to bend the cone into patterns at higher frequencies and in some cases, a worn cone would create slightly different patterns at given frequencies, when compared with a newer sibling, but these changes are enough to give the final sound more harmonic distortion, not unlike that of a valve (tube).

It is this creation of patterns that causes some of the sound that a certain guitar cabinet to produce a type of distortion that the musician is looking for, so picking the right driver for the cab is important.

On the other hand, the main resistive load for a monitor driver in a closed box with soft suspension (rubber or silicon) is the air it has to move and the air in the box in particular. Modern polymers as are used by all (as far as I am aware) driver manufacturers are very elastic (ability to return to original form) and very 'un-plastic.'

This is not true for paper cones that alter their mechanical characteristics significantly over time.

For that reason, guitar amp drivers that have been on the road for a few years have more overtones than a brand new driver. Both the suspensions and the cone itself are made of thick paper that loosens its structure with age and use and the resonant frequency of such a driver can drop significantly. Paper cones loosen their structure and therefore reproduce certain frequencies and harmonic combinations differently as they get older.

Paper cone guitar speakers rely on the stiffness of the suspension for a large part of their resistive load. This can vary between 20% and 60%, depending on a whole host of factors, including volume, stiffness and construction of the surrounding cabinet.

The stiffness of the suspension of a studio monitor is kept fairly low and at the same time, the cones are made as stiff as possible, all by use of modern materials such as polymers and complex glass fibre and polymer combinations.

Also, studio monitors are not supposed to be used to the full extent of the travel of the cone. Put simply, they are (or at least should be) used at lower volumes, so as to avoid mechanical distortion.

These are built into either fully enclosed or deeply ported cabinets and the resistive load of the air is therefore far greater than for an open guitar cab.

Those two factors combined, mean that the mechanical resistance of the suspension accounts for less than 20% of the total resistance. At low volumes, less than 10%.

Given that modern materials only marginally alter their elasticity and plasticity and that tiny change effects a factor that makes up just 10% or less of the overall compliance of the driver, we are talking about something that might alter a fraction of a percentage of the mechanical compliance of the driver.

Headphone membranes are usually made of biaxially-oriented polyethylene terephthalate, which is a pre-stressed (drawn) version of the same stuff that is used to make pop bottles (aka PET bottles). This stuff behaves in a very similar fashion to modern studio monitor cones.

In short, run in the speakers on the your guitar stacks. The older and 'fluffier' the paper, the more harmonics they will create - a bit like old valves really.

But the drivers in your high quality studio monitors use air as their resistive load and last I heard, you can't run in air.
Old 5th November 2010 | Show parent
  #28
Lives for gear
 
recordinghopkins's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
snake oil, I say. Any new set of monitors should meet the manufacturer's specs right out of the box, although it may take the amps a few minutes to warm up to their steady state and reach peak performance. If you feel you must buy in to this idea, the for pete's sake, why would you play pink noise for three days straight? Just turn on some music at a moderate level and get to know your new speakers.
Old 5th November 2010 | Show parent
  #29
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
The latest posts is full of ignorance and misunderstandings and almost nothing is correct.

I'll sort it out later when I have time.

What I have written is fact and proovable science.


/Peter
Old 6th November 2010 | Show parent
  #30
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majestikc ➑️
Whatever, keep on spreading the garbage.

All that stuff you mentioned has been shown to fluctuate......within less of a second from signal being sent to the driver, and it has also been shown that it fluctuates again when stopped and returns to normal.

So yes speaker burn in does occur, for about the first second of use.

Anyway, at the end of the day does it really matter, if your using your speakers or headphones they will get "burned" in anyway, and if speeding up the so called process makes you feel better then do it.
I'm not the one spreading garbage in this thread though there is a whole lot of it being spread.

Yes, there are short term fluctuation of small signal parameters as well in loudspeakers and that has been known for decades. This does not change any of the FACTS that I have presented about the subject.

And of course the speakers will break in no matter what and music at low to medium levels for a weak or so before cranking them is a good idea.


/Peter
πŸ“ Reply

Similar Threads

Thread / Thread Starter Replies / Views Last Post
replies: 111 views: 8664
Avatar for zenmastering
zenmastering 4th April 2007
replies: 99 views: 26525
Avatar for elambo
elambo 18th November 2009
replies: 199 views: 65297
Avatar for Screamer
Screamer 21st January 2022
replies: 56 views: 17366
Avatar for CustomStudios
CustomStudios 21st January 2022
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearspace Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…

Forum Jump
Forum Jump