Yes I understand and have been through all that. I know you think that the tuning will not translate with just raw HD800s but just for kicks try it! (if you didn't already) You may be right. I thought that too but now I am not so sure. My LCDX are not at all linear, I thought correction cross-feed would help but no the best translation comes without it. There is a little too much high and the bass is light in the cans BUT the mixes come out great. I have just spent the best part of a year messing with correction/crossfeed etc. Weird! I was soooo convinced I needed it. Maybe not.

OK I get what you're saying.
Don't forget that our headphones are different, so it perhaps also makes sense that our preferences as far as EQ treatment/crossfeed is also different.
Obviously after buying my HD800, first I tried it without any treatment but the peak at 6kHz and the lack of sub-bass annoyed me a bit (was way off from the sound in my head, the sound that I get when I listen to my KH310s). So after a short period of "dissatisfaction" I looked for some solution, and a slight bit of Sonarworks+Canopener treatment sorted out my translation problems. Now I'm happy, and for work I prefer this headphone sound compared to any other I've heard (including earlier versions of your LCD-X). Perhaps with your 2021 LCD-X I wouldn't use any correction neither

Well lets see how I get on mixing naked for a bit lol. It maybe that any correction I need is just very very subtle. Normally I need a load of bass and the top to be rolled off a bit to sound like my ATCs and sub. OK now for some very critical listening...

True, although "nobody" is quite a stretch. Neumann is known for mics, not headphones, and highly respected companies known for a product who assumed people would buy another product with their name just because of their name have found out more than once that it doesn't necessarily work. Personally I'd rather stick to the company that is known for whatever. Like if I want fried chicken, I'm not going to Hardees, I'm going to KFC.

i've been having great luck and getting great results mixing on my audeze lcd2 headphones. i drive them with a little labs monotor and sometimes my mcintosh mha100 headphone amp that also drives my ns10 monitors.

i usually check balances on the ns10's super quiet, and i have proac 100's that i use when tracking...but these days so much of my mixing is done on the audeze headphones. partially out of necessity as my current room at home isn't treated nor an ideal space, and partially because i'm just really enjoying it.

Since Neumann's parent company is Sennheiser, I would say there is not much reason to doubt Neumann's expertise when it comes to headphone design and product development. Sennheiser is probably the biggest/most successful headphone company, with headphone development knowhow going back to the 1940s. They made the world's very first open headphones (HD414 in 1968); they were the first to use electrostatic transducers in headphones (late 70s) and the whole concept of "high end"/"ultra high end" headphones comes from them (think HD800, Orpheus...).
So there is not much reason to "doubt headphones with the Neumann Badge". If there are some companies with enough knowhow to potentially develop something new and interesting in the crowded professional headphone market than I think Neumann is one of them.
+
(I've tested their NDH 20. I found it to be interesting but not as special as I expected. I wasn't too keen on it's tuning + it was pretty uncomfortable compared to it's competition. But it's definitively not a bad headphone, I know loads of people who love it, it just wasn't for me. I never heard their latest NDH30, perhaps it's great, or perhaps it sucks, I don't have a clue. But one thing is sure: the people who developed it are not rookies, so I'm curious)

That doesn't mean Sennheiser is designing or building Neumann headphones, or even providing the parts.

To each their own. They're probably fine headphones, but I'll pass. Esp since being Neumann means they're probably way overpriced anyway.

Have you ever seen/heard the Sennheiser HD630vb? It was released 4 years prior to the Neumann NDH20 but it's yoke system, it's headband, it's closed cup etc. is pretty much exactly the same. (see attached pics)
So it's 100% sure Sennheiser provides parts. + If you take them apart you see some huge design overlaps. The Neumann is a real tank, there are not many headphones - not even in the over $1500 category - that are as insanely overengineered as the Neumanns. It is clearly designed to last forever.

If you're interested, watch this "look inside the Neumann NDH 20" video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13cCq26SmxU

The video's conclusion:
"...So overall NICE. It looks like whoever designed the NDH20 didn't talk to the guy who have to pay for it because they clearly massively overengineered almost every part of the headphone..."

I completely disagree. For example Neumann speakers (KH80, KH120, KH310, KH420...) are all extremely competitively priced in their own category. When I look at the price/performance/reliability ratio than Neumann's speakers/monitors are some of the very best value out there.

But I'm not talking about things like headbands, I'm talking the guts of the headphones themselves. PS I'm not saying they are or aren't the same parts or design, but it appears unclear and again just because Sennheiser owns them doesn't mean they share the same headphone greatness. That said, being Neumann I don't doubt they're at least respectable and possibly much more. I just wouldn't assume it.


But we're not talking about speakers, we're talking about headphones, and as far as I can see, Neumanns START around $400-500 and you can easily spend much more. To each their own but IMO any headphones that expensive are quite overpriced.

Sorry, but clearly you have never heard good headphones then. They get MUCH better than anything in even that price range that you think is by definition overpriced. That's like saying any guitar that costs more than $300 is overpriced. Do you also consider anything pricier than McDonalds overpriced? Personal budget and priorities are one thing. Judging the greater landscape as off the scale is a bit myopic.

Sorry, but you have no idea what you're talking about and your analogies are absurd. And if you really think you have to spend at least $400-500 for a good set of headphones, you're leading the pack on myopia.

Not only, after many years of direct experience, do I think his analogies are very relevant, but I have also read his very detailed reviews and analysis of headphones of all prices, and while I don't know him personally, I know he has put in more than enough work to be qualified to make these statements. Even very reputable software developers, who make very advanced headphone correction and calibration software, have corroborated this many times. Even a company like Dsoniq, who sells an inexpensive pair of headphones specifically for their software, recommends headphones in the $400-$600 range over even their own when it comes to accuracy in mix translation. That doesn't mean that there cannot be a less expensive set that will beat out a more expensive one, or that some expensive ones won't be bad, but at least with regard to headphones that have already been produced, $400 is not even remotely a lot of money, relatively speaking, for a professional engineer who will be using them for mixing and/or mastering. Do you have relevant experience in this field to back up your claim?

'Overpriced' is a very subjective assessment, everyone could be equally right in this regard. I tend to agree with the opinion that the 6000$ of some modern TOTL headphones is a crazy price, probably not correlated with work, parts used, research, quality control or any other objective parameter; but if someone is willing to pay those $ to have a specific sound, why not... better than taking drugs.
My experience with pricey headphones is limited to my new Hifiman Arya Stealth: they are excellent but not perfect (and I prefer to equalize it, both for mixing and listening), and a 350$ HD650 still has something to say against it: it loses on some things, wins on other things. If you equalize both, a 350$ Austrian Audio Hi-X65 is 90% of a 1500$ Aria Stealth for mixing purposes (and even for listening), in my opinion. Without EQ, the Aria wins over the X65, for me. And so on... Whether the Arya SE is "worth it" for the price, is highly subjective.
I also have edition XS and a LTS V2 that are in the middle in regard to price point. But are they in the middle regarding performance? I'm not really sure. I always just observe strong points and weak points in any of the good cans I own: no 'better' in absolute terms (better for every and each aspect), and no 'best' either.

If someone with a doctorate in mathematics told you 2 + 2 = 27, would you believe them? Apparently you would. But FYI having expertise in something doesn't mean whatever that "expert" says is correct.

If you or others want to be enslaved to the "you get what you pay for" mindset, knock yourselves out. But in this day and age especially, it's a fool's errand. I have heard high-priced headphones which sounded great. I've heard less expensive ones which sounded great. I'm not saying there's never a difference or spending more is never worth it, but $400+ is far - far - from a bottom line for good headphones. And if you look around, I'm sure you can find many people with as much or more experience and expertise than your "expert" above who would agree.

PS and btw you moved the goalposts. piedpiper said you have to spend at least $400 to get good headphones. You're saying $400 isn't at all a lot of money for a professional engineer to spend on headphones. Given it's his or her profession, they're likely to err on the side of caution and spend more. But that doesn't mean they had to. And regardless, not everyone here is a professional engineer.

Anyway, robertom made a good point: there's no small amount of subjectivity with this, as it is with most things musically related. To each their own. But what bothers me about such statements are that someone with little to no experience or knowledge of headphones or music production will read that thinking "holy hell I better spend at least $400-500 or I won't have good headphones!" which is nowhere near reality.

You're putting words in my mouth, though understandably. "Good" is relative. Your words were not. You said, "...IMO any headphones that expensive[$400] are quite overpriced." It is inappropriate to make such a generalization outside of your own budget and priorities, as I made clear in my original response, which I stand by completely. At least you said, "IMO". Perhaps that excuses what comes after it and does indeed place it in "your own budget and priorities" but that's not how I read it. Sounds to me like you're saying that anything more than much less than $400 is categorically a waste of money for anyone under any circumstances. Then you come back and say, "I'm not saying there's never a difference or spending more is never worth it... " but that is actually what seem to have said before.

I rely on headphones in my workflow, though not exclusively. Maybe you don't. That's an important point. Bottom line for me is you and anyone else are welcome to draw the line wherever you want or need to on what you are willing to spend on headphones. Personally, I look for high value at various price points for different contexts. But for serious reference headphones I am willing to pay a hell of a lot more than a couple hundred bucks if I find something that does what I want it to do better than anything else. The cheapest headphones that begin to approach my standards are in the $350 range, and I have listened to dozens of headphones below that price range, not to mention above it. They all had issues I was not willing to live with. For reference, most of the cans that are typically touted as in the running at all start around that price. So you're basically flying solo here and relegating yourself to the dregs. If that serves you, fine. But indicting everyone who lives above that range as fools is a strange position to take. Even my $1000 cans have issues I wish were not there and I have yet to hear anything for half again as much that even begins to compete.

Re: professionals erring on the side of caution, but not needing to, you speak as if professionals don't audition anything and have no actual experience on which to base their decisions, which is absurd. Makes me wonder if you are not professional yourself and have little basis for most of what you're saying. There is nothing wrong with being nonprofessional, unless you are speaking for us.

I'm one of those enslaved "headphoneoholic" My experience is that (with very clear diminishing returns above a certain price, but) mostly "you get what you pay for".

OK, let's try to (as objectively as possible) actually figure out what is a good bottom line price for a good pair of professional cans. Obviously first we have to define what do we mean by "good".

Let's just forget price/value for a minute.

Most professionals would think along the following lines when judging headphones:
1. Frequency response/tuning;
2. Reliability/Build quality/Durability;
3. Comfort;
4. Detail presentation (how easy it is to hear recording mistakes, piano bench squeaks, accidental mic stand kicks etc. How easy it is to hear the smallest setting changes on compressors, EQs, Reverbs etc.)
5. Spatial presentation/Soundstage/Panning precision;
6. Timbre quality (natural or metallic/veiled...)
7. ...
(+ How hard it is to drive)

These qualities will dictate how easy and fast it is to achieve good mixing results; how well mixes will translate to the real world.

A headphone can be considered good enough if it doesn't fail on any of the above categories. A headphone can be considered "better" if it starts to score higher in some of these categories, and a headphone is objectively in the category of "THE BEST" if it gets very high scores in all/most of these categories.

In "THE BEST" category you won't find anything below $1500. You'll find headphones like the Audeze MM500 or MX4, like the Sennheiser HD800S, the ZMF Auteur, the HEDDphone, the Focal Utopia or Clear... and even these headphones are not perfect in all categories. The HD800S without EQ lacks a bit of bass and has got a slight peak at 6kHz, the HEDDphone is way too bulky and heavy... but as far as overall performance these are clearly much better than their cheaper counterparts.

BUT: how much better? 2x, 3x or 4x better or only 5% or 20% or 50% better? Now this is where value/price comes into the picture and that makes everything way more complicated.

In his last post Piedpiper said: "the cheapest Headphones that begin to approach my standards are in the $350 range." I completely agree, it's roughly around the $350-$500 mark from where above the diminishing return just doesn't worth it for most.
+ With EQ/Sonarworks lot of the tuning weaknesses of a headphone can be tamed.

In my experience (as far as price/quality) the best value options are the following:

- Sennheiser HD600/HD650/HD660 (lacks some bass and a bit veiled sounding)
- Ollo Audio S4X (lovely tuning but not very detail focused and the cups are a bit small)
- Shure SRH 1840 (extremely flat tuning but if you mix very loud or you mix a lot of bass heavy music it's not ideal as it's not that hard to drive this can into distortion in the bass)
- Audio-Technica ATH-R70X (very small soundstage. It feels like all instruments are on your ears, as if the sound is not around, but more like inside your head )
- Beyerdynamic DT1990 (very good detail presentation but it's partly a result of it's elevated highs)
- Beyerdynamic DT880 (with EQ/Sonarworks it's probably the cheapest path getting an exceptional sound; without EQ it's way-way too bright for me + it lacks bass)
- Austrian Audio Hi-x60/Hi-x65 (a bit weird tuning but thanks to it's exceptionally low THD it's very easy to EQ + it has got more detail than pretty much any headphones I've ever heard - except my HD800 and the Focal Clear -. As far as detail, nothing is even close in the sub $1000 price range)

This is the competition Neumann sends in his NDH30 to compete with. I haven't heard it yet, but I've seen it's frequency response, I've seen how a gutted NDH20 looks like in the inside, how reliable/overengineered it is ... so based on this (and the competition) IMO Neumann priced it pretty much spot on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13cCq26SmxU

postscript:
Well experienced professionals can adapt/learn pretty much any cans/speakers. Usually their knowledge/ears are at a level where they can compensate for most flaws/weaknesses in headphones and monitor systems. A great example is Andrew Sheps, who gets great mix results from some cheapo $79 Sony MDR-7506 cans. But that doesn't make an MDR-7506 "better" than an HD800S. I would even argue, that Sheps wouldn't be able to compensate for the "bad sound" of the MDR-7506 without the incalculable amount of hours he spent in front of some great sound systems, listening to an objectively "good/correct/natural sound". First learning/internalizing how "good/correct/natural sound" actually sounds is essential to develop the skill to be able to compensate for any situation where the audio equipment gives you less than ideal/compromised sound. This learning process is the easier the better monitors/headphones you use. So from this perspective, spending $400 or way more for a good pair of headphones (as long as it speeds up the learning/internalizing process of what "correct/natural/neutral" sound actually sounds like) can be a great investment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xI1iSw0mbLY

Sorry for the length,

Excellent suggestions from Ozonepaul. I just want to add an almost unknown developer out there, ETA headphones, a 'one man band' that knows very well his stuff; He has begun by modding headphones and developing an incredible ability in tuning, and now he as some headphone that he developed from scratch. I have his Mini C, a closed headphone that has one of the flattest FR that I have heard, and where the bass quantity is easily tuned by closing/opening a single hole in the baffle and changing at least 5 different compatible pads. It is a strange headphone in many ways: It looks pretty rough (sort of an home made headphone), it has a very inside your head, narrow soundstage (if you think that the soundstage on he HD600 is narrow listen to this) and is not very confortable since it uses MDR7506 compatible pads (too small for my ears, maybe for someone they are confortable). But for me they are the only headphone that I don't see the need to equalize for mixing, they are very balanced on all the spectrum and the 'mid' of the mix (lead vocal for example) is placed inside your head, absolutely centered, full and clear. The polar opposite is the Sennheiser HD560/HD400pro, where the attempt to recreate a large sounstage completely messes the imaging and soundstage for me (and I really miss the phantom center).
Pretty incredible that this developer is only known in a single audiophile forum (SBAF), while this headphones are quite the opposite of my idea of 'audiophile' headphones and an excellent studio HP instead: no hi frequency emphasis, no expansive soundstage, not fancy looking. They even have a sort of universal headband with the "studio monitor" label on it.
I have recently bought different new headphones, so I still don't know them all from the inside out, but the Mini C could possibly be the one where mixes translates better on my PMC speakers. They are 500$ anyway, not cheap.
I agree about the 350$ price range and the law of diminuishing returns from this point on.

I've never heard of them so I instantly googled them, thanks

Link to etaheadphones:
https://www.etaheadphones.com/

An interview with Tommy (the "T" in ETA) to find out what they're all about:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wJZdQlAp00

ETA on head-fi, superbestaudio:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/eta-...dphone.962380/

https://www.superbestaudiofriends.or...-thread.11855/

Ozonepaul, that was one of the best nutshell posts I've ever seen here. Thanks for taking the time to be so comprehensively articulate, not to mention accurate in your assessment.

And thanks for the additional input, Robertom!

I have Audeze LCD XC headphones and can’t find anything cheaper that sounds like them. They are large and the drivers are farther from my ears, making them sound a lot more like speakers than my other headphones. For me, $1300 was worthwhile and they should last a lifetime. My Audio Technica M50’s sound shrill in comparison and nothing like speakers. I have tried a lot of headphones and thus quality of sounding like speakers with exceptional low end and translation has been hard to find for me.

I got the Audeze MM500 headphones and I think these will be used more than my LCD-XC’s. They are a bit less bright but very punchy and great clarity in the mids. Low end is punchy but a bit less very low than the XC’s. The difference is there is an overall tightness in all frequencies . I have had the XC’s for 5 years , so my first inclination was to add top and bottom with EQ. As I adjust to them I think are perfect the way they are. They are kind of like NS10’s combined with nice mastering speakers.

I wonder if NDH30 can be better than corrected HD800S... As far as I understand, NDH30 looks like it is built around 120 ohm version of HD600\650 capsule, and frequency response itself looks promising. I can't find any other measurement though.

I agree that Sonarworks or full oratory correction smears, and manual EQ at a few points works much better in my experience. Harman curve is based on the average shape of ears, and everyone has different ear shape and different correction curve, so those small amount of corrections at too many points at higher frequency is more harm than good. Audiophiles and hobbyists don't have enough experiences nor don't know how to use EQ correctly, so I understand that they have to rely on Harman curve, but how I can trust a professional engineer who can't manually correct the frequency response of his headphones just using his ears and EQ with reference tracks. There is no difference correcting headphones and correcting frequency response of music...

Ollo S4X are for me the best choice. I have a few high quality of headphones and those ones are the best for mixing without a doubt.
I use for live shows the S4R close version.

Has anyone got an opinion on AiAiAi TMA-2's?

Fancy trying them out. Going to custom them with the detailed driver and the over ear leather pads, so closed, as I want them mostly for recording to see where they make me position myself to the mic. But also interested in them as an additional mix reference which should go well to my middle focused, modded Fostex TR50P's

I've not heard yet the NDH-30 (just the NDH-20) but I highly doubt the NDH-30 will be "better". Perhaps it will have flatter (more bass, less 6kHz peak) frequency response etc so it's easily possible that there will be areas where the NDH-30 is "better" than the HD800. There are already quiet a few "better" headphones out there as far as out of the box frequency response. BUT:

There are 3 qualities where hardly anything (even in the + £1500 price range) comes even close to the HD800/HD800S, and I happen to heavily prioritize these qualities over others:

1. Detail (I mean picking up small noises or mistakes in recordings like piano bench squeaks, microphone stand kicks, breath noises etc; how small setting changes on compressors, reverbs etc are audible). No other headphone I've ever heard come even close to the detail performance of the HD800. (The only ones that are not far off are the Focal Clear and the Austrian Audio Hi-x60/x65.)

2. Soundstage
Same story, I've heard many many high-end headphones from ZMF Auteur to the HEDDphone, from the MEZE Empyrean to the Audeze LCD-X... non gave me the same stage size/panning precision experience. (The NDH-20s soundstage is very small in every comparison, it's smaller than the HD650s. It being a closed can it's forgivable, but I really hope the NDH30 improved a lot in this regard)

3. Comfort
I find the HD800 way more comfortable than most other "high-end" headphones. It's earcups are spacious; my ears are not sweating even after 4 hours of work; it's extremely light... for me it's way better than the NDH-20. So if the comfort is not massively improved on the new Neumann model than... the NDH-30 won't be a "better" headphone for me.

Anyway, will see, I don't want to judge a headphone I haven't heard yet.
Every time a new "pro" aimed can comes out, my nerdy headphone maniac personality takes control...
On the subject: have you seen that Ollo Audio will release it's new S5X cans soon?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UM4yawCH49s

I don't need any more headphones but my addiction... I need to put my greasy hands on both of these to try them

Just to tickle your curiosity:
In a few days Ollo Audio will release it's new S5X!

If you're interested, here is some nerd talk with Rok (the founder of Ollo) about the new cans:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UM4yawCH49s

I already order my S5X.
Next week I’ll be enjoying them. ❤️

Thank you. I'm a basically a speaker guy, but I also have been using Sennheiser for about 30 years; 580, 600, 650 then went back to 600. I'm so accustomed to 600, so my concern about 800S is if it sounds too different from 600 and it would not be suitable for mixing. It seems NDH-30 is closer to 600. hmm...

Anyway, I would like to hear your opinion about NDH-30 someday.

"I'm so accustomed to 600, so my concern about 800S is if it sounds too different from 600"

As far as price/value/sound quality/"EQ-ability"... HD600/HD650 both are phenomenal headphones for critical listening/for some aspects of mixing. But if you can, just test the HD800s. Yes it sounds different, but not vastly different. Same rolled off bass, same(-ish) mids + (without EQ) way more pronounced highs, way more sheen, less "veiled". But I promise you, you are not going to believe how much more detail you can hear on the HD800. You can hear mixing and recording edits (eg. chopped/cut breath sounds at "punch-in" recording edits; reverb tails that were cut too early etc) you just can't hear on any other cans or monitors. + It's panning/spatial precision and scale is also a huge improvement over the bit claustrophobic HD600. Try them if you can.