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Getting the mix to POP techniques - Serban Ghenea
Old 6th July 2010
  #1
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Getting the mix to POP techniques - Serban Ghenea

This is a technical question for the the top pro's on this board to whom I am eternally grateful for what I've learnt here

I've been so impressed with Serban Ghenea's recent mixes, especially Tik Tok.

The chorus REALLY punches in the mix. It's super tight and the topline is driven home with relentless force.
What is your take on what is happening here technically in the mix?

Leave the genre critiques at home kids, if you don't have a clue please don't post

I'm starting with volume automation.....
Old 7th July 2010
  #2
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🎧 10 years
First, I probably don't know $hit...now that is out of the way I am going to say that most of the sounds in the song are samples and synths. I would also say that the chorus really doesn't have much going on and every "instrument" is do it's own thing in its own frequency range(for the most part)...so there are not different elements "fighting" for space. This probably helped in making the mix loud. I would also imagine that the ME smashed the $shit out of it, and being that the song lacks actual recorded instrumentation, and thus less inherent noise, the ME could smash it even more while still maintaining some level of clarity...but, like I said.. I am sure someone will tell me that I don't know what I am talking about, because that is what happens here on GS.

in any case, the song is damn loud

Last edited by lettenmusic; 7th July 2010 at 03:58 AM.. Reason: missed that the OP didn't ask for my opinion on the song genre.
Old 7th July 2010
  #3
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.............sorry not a top pro or even a top amateur lol! he mixes in the box I think, now I don't know if that involves any hardware at all............it might and might not but I think he's been doing the in the box thing for years now and is pretty comfortable with it, anyway equally keen if anyone has any actual info. I imagine he has some tricks up his sleeve and I imagine he might guard some of them closely, then again even if he told you what he did one probably wouldn't be able to compete with his mixes. I always remember Dave Pensado saying something like "...hiding my plug in settings is like Hemmingway hiding his verbs" kind of hit the nail on the head. I wonder how the latter is I understand he had some sort of stroke recently....sorry don't want to de-rail your thread but it came into my mind. Anyway this should hopefully be an interethumbsupsting thread
Old 7th July 2010 | Show parent
  #4
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.....................just had a quick scout around on Google...........noticed he mixed I kissed a girl and California girls...Katy Perry..............both utterly rockin mixes but as another poster mentioned a lot of that is to do with really great arrangments and expert programming................it helps I imagine having great material to mix.
Old 7th July 2010 | Show parent
  #5
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..........aha, found these haven't looked at them yet but you never know maybe some pearls of wisdom.


How To Mix A Hit In 2000 Easy Steps, Dan Daley


Mixer Serban Ghenea Goes Digital
Old 7th July 2010 | Show parent
  #6
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As a non "pro" I would like to just add that I agree completely with the above two (2) replies. Specifically as they relate to how each synth/loop/sample lives in it's own space which allows for each element to potentially have massive impact when needed.

Coupling the actual sonic frequencies with an exceptionally well crafted arrangement is what allows that hook to just jump off the speakers at you the way it does.

Without doubt he is a tremendous MIXER, however I think the combination of Luke's exceptional songwriting (lyrics aside) and arrangement ability for POP songs and Benny's terrific work with synth/electro/loop aspects of the track has a lot to do with what your hearing. That same team including some instances the contribution of Max Martin (who's presence clearly never hurts a hit pop production) is responsible for around five or so (I believe) of the biggest hits in the last year and a half or so.

In no way do I mean to take anything away from Serban and what he contributes to these songs. But to deny the corollary between the first line team and what he does would be a mistake as you would only be seeing one part the equation.

In sum, I think he is getting meticulously crafted sounds and arrangements that are meant to impact as they do in those hooks before he even touches them. These songs were not an accident, they were crafted by the biggest hit makers in the bussiness from start to finish. I would imagine people like Luke, Max, and Benny work a track so the hook has as much impact from the very start.

Note: Sorry for the long response I ramble before I have had enough coffee ; )

-Lex
Old 7th July 2010 | Show parent
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikethedrummer ➑️
If you get curious about CLA type rock/pop mixes, I'd be glad to help though!
I put together an interesting A-B of a Serban Ghenea mix versus a Chris Lord Alge Mix mixing the same artists on the same album (Avril Lavigne).

Avril OTB vs ITB | homerecordingbootcamp.com

I am a bit more partial to CLA myself.
Old 7th July 2010 | Show parent
  #8
Vum
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I think having so many dynamic synth patches helps as well. You'll notice on Tik Tok the envelope of the synths aren't your typical pad sounds and create the effect of motion. When you combine this "motion" with pitch modulation you get a 3-dimensional experience that keeps the mix on its tippy toes. With the vocals so static a more rudimentary synth patch would flatten the song.

The synth programming is very smart but this song is almost identical to "California Girls" in both the music and the mix. Both songs are mixed with the vocals "in" the mix as opposed to "on" the mix - lots of automation surely but also ducking.

*edit* California Gurls is much more flat - check out the static synths and bass. When A/B-ing the tracks Tik Tok makes California Gurls sound sooo lazy.
Old 7th July 2010 | Show parent
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RCM - Ronan ➑️
I put together an interesting A-B of a Serban Ghenea mix versus a Chris Lord Alge Mix mixing the same artists on the same album (Avril Lavigne).

Avril OTB vs ITB | homerecordingbootcamp.com

I am a bit more partial to CLA myself.
They both sound great, and I think the differences are mostly due to the different mix styles. Girlfriend is way scooped compared to the other track.

I was actually pretty sure it was the other way around, due to the amount of midrange on song 2.

Oh well
Old 7th July 2010
  #10
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🎧 20 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinemascope ➑️
This is a technical question for the the top pro's on this board to whom I am eternally grateful for what I've learnt here

I've been so impressed with Serban Ghenea's recent mixes, especially Tik Tok.

The chorus REALLY punches in the mix. It's super tight and the topline is driven home with relentless force.
What is your take on what is happening here technically in the mix?

Leave the genre critiques at home kids, if you don't have a clue please don't post

I'm starting with volume automation.....
3 things:

1) Knowing what to leave alone and not over process especially with compression/limiting.

2) Careful EQ to get things to pop out correctly

3) Getting the lead vocal sound right which he spends a lot of time on
Old 7th July 2010 | Show parent
  #11
TLS
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🎧 15 years
I'd love to know more about Serban's thoughts behind a mix as there's something he does which is extremely musical - he's definitely my favorite mix engineer. From a technical standpoint you can turn the mixes up without them becoming harsh, the drums and vocals have power and cut, there is depth and dimension, and the low end...well... thumbsup
Old 7th July 2010 | Show parent
  #12
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🎧 15 years
My own take on Serban's mixes is that they're optimized for two kinds of systems: those with huge low end like boom cars and club stacks, and small-range things like earbuds and boomboxes.

They are all *heavily* compressed, mid-scooped, and very focused on tightness in the 60-120 octave and the 4k-8k octave. In other words, he nails the boom and sizzle. There is nothing remotely hi-fi about his sound, it has a lot of digital grain and 'artificial' top that I associate with extreme use of plugins and dsp, but that's all part of what makes his mixes pop on small systems which are not remotely hifi to begin with. On my iPod I have a few D'Sound songs he mixed, and I LOVE them in my car and on headphones, but find them unlistenable on my studio monitors because of that hypercompressed top end.

He seems to prefer mixing things up and down on a flat vertical wall and I prefer mixing things forward and back in a 3 dimensional window. He seems to use automation to keep things supertight, whereas I use automation to purposefully break things up as much as possible. No criticism here, just reflections on different aethetics; if I were going for his style, I would keep the above in mind, and I'd spend a lot of time mixing on some choice small speakers at low volume and on really big systems at high spl. Those two approaches will really help you tuck your vox the way he does. Automate every syllable if you have to!

In all, I suspect his success (not just career success but success at nailing his mixes) comes from understanding the medium he's working with and optimizing things to work on the playback systems of his target demographics.


Gregory Scott - ubk
Old 7th July 2010 | Show parent
  #13
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
He seems to prefer mixing things up and down on a flat vertical wall and I prefer mixing things forward and back in a 3 dimensional window.
................yes I think he has probably turned the limitations of digital, which I think everyone struggles with into, if not an advantage, then at least the appearance of a creative decision. I think anyway that the sound of modern pop is the sound of digital, whereas if one was mixing music which has at least some historical precedent or point of reference in analogue, then it's always gong to compare unfavourably. However 4 on the floor kiks, dance synths and autotuned vocals are the perfect ingredients for 21st century digital mixes. Indeed the warmth, depth and real-ness of a good analogue mix might even be a disadvantage in to-days pop landscap. But anyhow I think the ideal product is probably achieved with careful planning through every stage. Concept...buzz word, point of view, story whatever kiks off the origonal idea. All the way through arrangement, tracking, production, mix and master. At each stage nothing is left to chance and everything superflous is removed. There might be 100 layers beneath those vocals, which you might not notice but you will notice if they aren't there. Equally there might be real drums layered in with the programmed ones.....same idea.However I digress back to mix techniques then.
Old 7th July 2010 | Show parent
  #14
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🎧 15 years
Indeed one of the greatest at the moment (whether it's ITB or OTB!)..

What I would really like to know is how much he's using hybrid setup with maybe so hardware compressors or summing boxes f.e..... or is it really plain ITB?
Old 7th July 2010 | Show parent
  #15
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🎧 15 years
Ronan, I went to your link but where the excerpts should be is all blank. Would really like to hear them. Any ideas?
Old 7th July 2010 | Show parent
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aTelecine-Lex ➑️
That same team including some instances the contribution of Max Martin (who's presence clearly never hurts a hit pop production) is responsible for around five or so (I believe) of the biggest hits in the last year and a half or so.

In no way do I mean to take anything away from Serban and what he contributes to these songs. But to deny the corollary between the first line team and what he does would be a mistake as you would only be seeing one part the equation.

In sum, I think he is getting meticulously crafted sounds and arrangements that are meant to impact as they do in those hooks before he even touches them. -Lex
Beautifully stated. It sounds like this guy (and maybe I've been living under a rock - Serban who?) has chosen the best tracks to 'do his stuff with' in much the same way as an artist would 'cover' a great track and get credit.
I still smile when I think of how Gene and Paul took "God Gave Rock and Roll To You" a terrific track recorded by Argent (Russ Ballard), did oh so very little to the arrangement, changed many of the words and gave themselves a writing credit after re-naming it "God Gave Rock and Roll To You II".
Old 7th July 2010 | Show parent
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k ➑️
In all, I suspect his success (not just career success but success at nailing his mixes) comes from understanding the medium he's working with and optimizing things to work on the playback systems of his target demographics.
Some exceptionally cool commentary in this thread.

It sounds like he uses multi-band compression a bit too. Possibly that driving chorus coming from some additional compression engagement during the key catchy choruses.
I wonder if there's a blurring of lines between Mixing and Mastering with some of the modern mix engineers. With so many Mastering tools out there (not a black art so much any more but semi-understood) and within the budgets of most Producers/Mix engineers, maybe some finalising tools are employed during mixing as effects.

Mmmm.. or ... maybe my nightshift talking ...
Old 7th July 2010 | Show parent
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodreb ➑️
Ronan, I went to your link but where the excerpts should be is all blank. Would really like to hear them. Any ideas?
Its there, but the look of the site makes links look very subtle. I tweaked it to be a bit more obvious. Avril OTB vs ITB | homerecordingbootcamp.com
Old 7th July 2010 | Show parent
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RCM - Ronan ➑️
Its there, but the look of the site makes links look very subtle. I tweaked it to be a bit more obvious. Avril OTB vs ITB | homerecordingbootcamp.com
Pretty cool, thanks! It made it hard being two different songs, (both really well composed and arranged,) but I agree, it was the low end that gave it away.

Again to the OP though, when you're not using any real instruments with skins or strings, your sound will only be as good as the samples you are using. Research for some really high end synths and dance samples. Learn how to blend them. Learn how to side chain them to a sine wave or white noise. There is a lot more than what meets the eye in electronic music.
Old 7th July 2010
  #20
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Mixerman's Avatar
 
🎧 20 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinemascope ➑️
This is a technical question for the the top pro's on this board to whom I am eternally grateful for what I've learnt here

I've been so impressed with Serban Ghenea's recent mixes, especially Tik Tok.

The chorus REALLY punches in the mix. It's super tight and the topline is driven home with relentless force.
What is your take on what is happening here technically in the mix?

Leave the genre critiques at home kids, if you don't have a clue please don't post

I'm starting with volume automation.....
Automation is definitely a part of making a mix Pop properly. I go into great detail regarding this in my upcoming book Zen and the Art of Mixing (Coming this Fall on Hal Leonard). The following excerpt is from the book (unedited), in which I discuss making a mix Sing (or Pop).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mixerman from Zen and the Art of Mixing
A mix that Sings is one in which everything works together to generate an undeniable energy. Sometimes I refer to this as a mix that “pops,” since the mix seemingly jumps out of the speakers. This isn’t a function of monitoring volume, as a mix that pops will get your attention and draw you in at any volume. You can use the terms “Sing” and “Pop” interchangeably. They’re the same principle as far as I’m concerned.

Getting a mix to Sing can be the most elusive part of mixing, and probably the most difficult to explain. Whether the mix Sings or not isn’t measurable in any real way, other than by how it makes you feel, but if you find yourself listening to a flat, uninspired mix, it probably has to do with a certain lack in how it gels. This usually has to do with EQ and compression.

If you get too much separation between your instruments your mix won’t gel. Separation in a mix is usually a good thing. We strive for it. Separation allows us to hear all the different parts. There’s a line, however, and if there’s too much overall separation between the instruments your mix won’t gel, which has a negative effect on how the mix Sings. If your mix has such separation that it sounds like five different players as opposed to one single band, then your mix won’t Sing. You want the listener to perceive a unified performance. If the individual parts are only serving to distract the listener, then you’re not manipulating their focus properly.

Your band (whether programmed or otherwise) is supposed to sound as if they’re working together, not as if they’re each doing their own thing. That’s the difference between a band that sounds musical and a band that sounds like they’re playing the same piece of music. With any luck the producer has done her job in this regard. Regardless, it’s part of your job is to create an apparent unity in purpose within your mix. The fact that you’re constantly dealing with individual tracks certainly doesn’t help matters. Neither does the usual recording methodology in which most parts are performed as overdubs. Typically, we’re just creating the illusion that the musicians played together, and this most certainly doesn’t make your job any easier.

How your mix gels has everything to do with how you use your planes of space. For instance, if you have a guitar/vocal production and you pan the vocal hard left and the guitar hard right, your mix isn’t going to gel. I realize I recommend that you make full use of the stereo field, but that includes filling in the middle.

Balance issues can cause gelling problems too. While you most certainly don’t want an overly proportional mix, you can’t get the track to gel if parts are popping out indiscriminately all over the place. It’s inconsistency in balances that destroy the overall integrity of a mix, especially on the bottom. If the kik level is wholly inconsistent and the bass is blowing up the speakers on some notes and virtually disappearing on others, your mix most definitely won’t sing or gel, and it definitely won’t pop. This is what makes compressors and limiters such important mix tools. They allow you to control consistency.

Now, don’t confuse the well-placed dynamic of an accented kik with that of an inconsistent one. The sixteenth pickup before the downbeat is a perfectly natural place for a drummer to put a dynamically lighter kik. This works to accentuate the downbeat and is a musical dynamic, which will only serve to make your mix sing more. Musical accents have been all but eradicated from much of our modern music, but that’s not because it doesn’t mix well. Don’t concern yourself with deliberate and musical inconsistency of a well-placed accent by the consummate professional. It’s the unmusical inconsistency of a lesser player that must be dealt with aggressively.

Compressors have a number of uses. While controlling volume dynamic is the most common purpose, compressors are often used for effect. Depending on how you set your attack and release settings you can make a part breathe. The ultra-aggressive placement of a compressor on a cymbal can completely eradicate the initial attack, allowing the listener to hear only the long slow release of the cymbal increasing in volume. Compressed room mics can create the illusion of a far greater space than might have existed during the recording by extending time of reflection. When implemented in an aggressive manner, you’re basically using compressors to shape tone as much as control dynamic. There are, however, risks involved in too much aggressive compression—you can make your mix small.

I’m not going to argue against aggressive compression techniques. Used well, even ultra-aggressively, compressors are quite handy in shaping the sound of your mix. But if you compress and limit too aggressively across the board, you will surely eradicate all dynamic from your mix, which will result in a small, lifeless mix.

The best way to make your mix sing is through the use of a 2-bus compressor. We’ll discuss this further in the Gear section of this book, but a good analog 2-bus compressor is essential for dealing with balance inconsistencies in your mix. Not only will the 2-bus compressor control the bottom of your mix, it will also serve to gel it. Be careful, though. If you hit your 2-bus compressor too hard, you once again risk making your mix small. If you hit it too lightly, your mix won’t sing due to distracting inconsistencies on the bottom. There’s a sweet spot on your 2-bus compressor, and if you can find that spot, your mix can be both tight on the bottom and big as well. This combination goes a long way towards delivering a mix that jumps out of the speakers. So if your mix isn’t singing, the first place to look is your overall compression. If that doesn’t do it, then you need to examine frequency balance.

How you fill the frequency spectrum can have great influence on how well your mix sings. If your mix is mostly high- and low-end, then you’re missing the aggressiveness that upper midrange offers, and the meat that the lower midrange offers. If your mix is light on the low-end, it won’t appear big. If your mix is too dark, it will seem flat and uninspired.
I go on about this, particularly where automation comes into play, but that should get you started until the book comes out.

Enjoy,

Mixerman
Old 7th July 2010 | Show parent
  #21
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Thanks for keeping it constructive & lucid guys.

Some really insightful & useful ideas here, many of which mirror my own musings

I'm primarily a writer/producer so this kind of discussion is helpful & righteous!

Nice one
Old 7th July 2010
  #22
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Quote:
Some really insightful & useful ideas here, many of which mirror my own musings
....well come on then.......don't be shy, let's hear themheh
Old 7th July 2010 | Show parent
  #23
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikethedrummer ➑️
Pretty cool, thanks! It made it hard being two different songs, (both really well composed and arranged,) but I agree, it was the low end that gave it away.

Again to the OP though, when you're not using any real instruments with skins or strings, your sound will only be as good as the samples you are using. Research for some really high end synths and dance samples. Learn how to blend them. Learn how to side chain them to a sine wave or white noise. There is a lot more than what meets the eye in electronic music.
But the bass guitar is really different in both mixes to me, one is pretty low midrangey it has more growl and attack and the other is much deeper and sustained.

I dont think i can tell any conclusion about ITB vs OTB with this example
Old 8th July 2010 | Show parent
  #24
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Serban Ghenea is the IT guy right now.

There's a clarity and excitement to his mixes that just punches. He did two mixes for me last year that we farmed out to several AList-er's and Serban's were hands down the best.

Old 8th July 2010 | Show parent
  #25
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aTelecine-Lex's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by EFF ➑️
Serban Ghenea is the IT guy right now.

There's a clarity and excitement to his mixes that just punches. He did two mixes for me last year that we farmed out to several AList-er's and Serban's were hands down the best.

Seems he has always been "The Guy" strictly speaking in terms of POP MIXING ITB. (emphasis on POP). I suspect part of the reason for that is the fact that he does a great deal if not all of Max Martin's MIXES. Weather or not you like the music, style, song, or person; Max clearly knows how to just make hit after hit. To work almost exclusively with one mixer through varying forms of pop, and varied artists speaks directly to the point that for lack of a better way of stating it they "get it".

Max Martin is also very partial to his tracks being mixed by Serban. I am fairly sure that when Max did a Bon Jovi track the label had someone aside from Serban mix it (a top mixer - the name is alluding me). Upon hearing the other mixer and unable to convince the label to use Serban's mix, Max went as far as wanting production credit removed. I found this very interesting, for as much as we hear Max's work, we hear VERY little from him about his work methods or anything personal about productions he has done. In today's age of 'star' producers who inject themselves into pop culture (typically without merit) it seemed odd that one of the brightest stars has so gracefully kept to himself... I am sure he has some amazing stories he could share, but respectfully doesn't ; )

It seems Serban is similar to Max in that regard. Maybe one of their secrets of lasting success is they have learned one of the golden rules of production/mixing... Stay out of the way of song as much as possible. I think one way or the other they both deserve a lot of credit in that regard

(The above subject to fact checking - which I cannot do at the moment. I am certain that if not as I stated, some variation of events as extreme did occur.)

-Lex
Old 8th July 2010 | Show parent
  #26
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trident fan's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RCM - Ronan ➑️
Its there, but the look of the site makes links look very subtle. I tweaked it to be a bit more obvious. Avril OTB vs ITB | homerecordingbootcamp.com
the guitar in B had a nice quality the other mix was lacking. an intimacy I guess.
Old 8th July 2010 | Show parent
  #27
TLS
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by EFF ➑️
Serban Ghenea is the IT guy right now.

There's a clarity and excitement to his mixes that just punches. He did two mixes for me last year that we farmed out to several AList-er's and Serban's were hands down the best.

As you knew the source material what did you learn from what he did to your tracks?
Old 8th July 2010 | Show parent
  #28
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🎧 20 years
If the arrangement is poppin then the mix should follow that blueprint.

One technique that I often employ is to adjust my buss compressor to react at maximum to the chorus (assuming this is the biggest part of the song).

Also automating certain key elements within the transition from say, pre-chorus to chorus will help add impact to the chorus.
Just raising the guitars, cymbal crashes, OHs, BVs, etc. can add the impact and give the perception that there is a big moment about to happen.
And no, a reverse cymbal or piano is cheating. Ha!!

It's really about creating (enhancing) contrast among the parts within the arrangement.

Assuming that the song is well arranged, regardless of genre, makes mixing easy and fun.
Most of these mixes can come together in a couple of hours. Sometimes less.
Old 9th July 2010 | Show parent
  #29
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RCM - Ronan's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I am looking to check out more of Serban's work. What do you guys think are his best sounding mixes?
Old 9th July 2010 | Show parent
  #30
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10 Reviews written
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TLS ➑️
As you knew the source material what did you learn from what he did to your tracks?
it's hard to articulate - especially when one of the songs was mixed by three other top mixers (four A List mixers total).

so we listened to all the mixes and serban's was out in front... more "alive", but also more "clarity and punch". he was just coming off circus when we went to him - so we wanted some of that, and he gave it us.

another mixer was a not to distant second, and had if I had not heard serban's mix I probably would have thought it was fine.

The second song we gave Serban was being mixed by very well know producers who mix a lot of their own stuff (and we had used some of their mixes on other songs). But this one song in particular we needed to punch it up, and really give it more lift, and more excitement.

Again Serban did exactly what we needed. He just "gets it" in a way that others don't at the moment.

If I wish I could tell you technically what he did, but honestly part of the process is still a little magical. It's not like the other mixes were in any way bad - it's just that serbans were that much better.
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