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Hip Hop is taking over
Old 7th June 2003
  #31
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
Hip Hop

"I think the biggest single problem with rock today is that the price of admission is way way too high because it is controlled by 50 year old "hip" gatekeepers who got their jobs during the '60s and '70s "

interesting point... here in the UK its slightly different but with essentially the same detrimental effect. Most of the major label gatekeepers are all 40 yr olds who hit it big signing pop acts in the 80's... they are hopelessly out of touch and have no idea how to develop bands with any longevity past 1 album.

They wouldn't dare 'develop' any artist anyhow incase the initial losses lost them their nice fat paycheck each month... so they either sign nothing or manufacture another fly-by-night teeny pop band.

Burt
Old 8th June 2003
  #32
Mindreader
 
BevvyB's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Beastie Boys
Old 8th June 2003
  #33
Lives for gear
 
littledog's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
No one can force anyone to like a particular kind of music, nor should they want to. For all those who hate hiphop, hey, i'm not real crazy about polkas, although i'm sure at the highest level there are great musicians playing it.

But Ruphus does tend to view things in absolutes, whether art or politics. If he doesn't like it, (or disagrees with it) there's not much room in his universe for it. But he's fun to talk to and good to have around, if for no other reason than to challenge some of our assumptions.

So, does hiphop operate on the same creative and musical level as whatever musical forms Ruphus (or others) prefer? Who knows? But the answer, for me, is hardly a clear cut "no".

This would be based on my own personal engineering experience, which has covered a pretty wide gamut of musical styles. Compared to other styles that come out of my studio, the higher level hiphop projects have not suffered by comparison either artistically or musically. On one recent project an eighteen year-old rapper/producer brought in some very high level jazz and R&B musicians (some of which maybe even Ruphus would know and admire...) to play on top of his sequences and who contributed greatly to the final product. The interesting thing is that the musicians involved were creatively inspired by the project and eager to be a part of it. And I can tell you that in this case it was NOT about the money, as some were doing it for free (or so they thought, although they eventually all did get paid).
Old 8th June 2003
  #34
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Re: Hip Hop

Quote:
Originally posted by Burt
..here in the UK its slightly different but with essentially the same detrimental effect. Most of the major label gatekeepers are all 40 yr olds who hit it big signing pop acts in the 80's...
I'm actually thinking more of the clubowners, the press and the others who bands have to deal with in the beginning. The folks at the labels here seem to be mostly 20s and 30s pretty much like they've always been.

Anyhow, I guess the point I was trying to make is that Hip Hop probably has a bigger, more diverse talent pool to draw from in addition to a more direct connection with the audience much as rock had in the early days.
Old 8th June 2003
  #35
Gear Maniac
 
Cape's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
It's a style rocks a style, in UK BPI (British Phonographic Society) said rock overtook pop and everything else this year with a 31% share of the vote (first time ever in history!!).

Hip ain't hopped global yet, but judging by the amount of baseball caps being worn in my town centre I'd say it's on it's way.
Old 8th June 2003
  #36
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pounce's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
when i think of hip hop, i think of the pt barnum quote that nobody every lost money underestimating the public.

it's popular, it makes money, it has basically no artistic merit...it's lowest common denominator for sure.


one thing that does strike me as a little funny is that rock music that was called "noise music" some years ago has been seen to have some actual musicality and originality when seperated from trends and preceptions of the time. (of course some of it has been shown to be total ****e) anyhow, i know that hip hop is trendy and all, but i'm sure the vast majority of it will not fare well in the test of time.
Old 8th June 2003
  #37
Gear Maniac
 
Cape's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
NWA had the lyrics and the music, now if only Easy E hadn't shagged to many and done everything else.

Public E cool, theres alot of stuff still running underground, but the majority of humans just want a simple tune with someone moaning away to repeated beats that stop and start on key lines............ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Old 8th June 2003
  #38
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
again...

Posterchild...

that was a great link... I agree with most everything in it and I think a clarification has to be made in order to understand my viewpoint.

My point is that there are stupid, crass, repetitive records in all genres. A few on this forum have seemed to judge ALL of hip hop on the kind of rubbish they see on MTV. I repeat - that's like judging 70's rock on The Osmonds.

Gangster rap means nothing to me. Don't relate to it, not interested in it.. the rappers seem to shout rather than have any real lyrical flow, its just trash. The lyrics are distasteful, the imagery negative and sexist.

HOWEVER - there is more to hip hop than this and its not particularly 'underground' either... there are numerous hip hop and r n b artists who are more in the spirit of the socially uplifting black artists of the past (Stevie, Marvin, Curtis, etc)... a perfect example would be Dwele and his track 'Money Don't Mean a Thing'.

Also its hard to say where the 'gangsta rap' mentality came from... certainly its ironic that Hip Hop basically came about as a reaction against the gang culture in The Bronx, Harlem, etc.

(btw talking of vinyl stacks - I just spent months transferring my vinyl collection over to iTunes for some nice crazy playlists (like 3 continuous days worth of Miles Davis) and I think out of 1500 albums maybe less than 50 were from after 1980).

"it has basically no artistic merit.. the vast majority of it will not fare well in the test of time".

that sentance rings true for the whole of the music industry right now - not just hip-hop. But seek and ye shall find...

Burt
Old 8th June 2003
  #39
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pounce's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Re: again...

Quote:
Originally posted by Burt
Posterchild...

"it has basically no artistic merit.. the vast majority of it will not fare well in the test of time".

that sentance rings true for the whole of the music industry right now - not just hip-hop. But seek and ye shall find...

Burt
yes, oddly, i don't find myself liking most of the popular stuff. as in, if it's on clear channel stations, i probably dont' listen to it in my free time. teen pop - whatever, you can have it.

however, there is a matter of percentages. there are a huge percentage of hip hop performers that have all of the bad attributes and they are getting the lions share of the airplay. i could say nice things about beastie boys or dj shadow, but it's still the case that if you tuned into a hip hop radio station, a very large percentage of it's material would have content that i dont' enjoy with little musicality (sure, i liked aerosmith, but eminem sampling it and talking over it doesn't do it for me artistically).

and the formulaic qualities of things like teen pop make it boring for someone who hasn't been a teen for many years. oh well, i'm only chiming in to the thread since i'm bored at work. if you like it, listen to it. i just like things that are actually musical or otherwise entertaining or original. i still can listen to loud, simple, angry, sexy, dancy, etc. music of many sorts just as long and as loud as the best of them, i just know the difference between **** and shinola.
Old 8th June 2003
  #40
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🎧 15 years
your an idiot
Old 8th June 2003
  #41
Gear Maniac
 
Cape's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Yo Burt dude.. I hope you don't think I was dissing Hip Hop artists, as I work with a couple who's home land is the good ole USA.
I would like to say though I've found as many **** rappers as rockers, probably more of the guitar sort.

It's the record companies fault, and I'm not passing the buck this time.
Old 8th June 2003
  #42
Jax
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Wow, there are alot of stiff white-sounding guys n' gals in this thread who think they know more than they do about hip-hop and rap.... or even why it could be good or bad. Growing up in inner city America, with the right blend of cultural exposure and open-mindedness surely would have many of you seeing rap and hip-hop differently.

I don't care if you don't like the aforementioned styles of music.

What's bugging me is that it's being slammed because it is not understood by a bunch of whitey rockers (especially you guys in Europe... if I'm not mistaken, rap was not born there because it had no reason to be!!). Not growing up in the culture makes you an outsider, with only the most watered-down, dumbed-down references (radio and video) to rap and hip-hop at your disposal.

Then again, this thread respresents an extremely minute sampling of views from a particularly non-target audience: people with recording studios, meaning - full on control and live rooms meant for recording live instruments, are probably not the most dead-on source to comment about the genres in question. Chances are, if your life is based around recording live instruments, you didn't get into music to record rap and hip-hop...

Remember that, and then remember that your judgements don't mean **** beyond whether or not you like the music. Beyond that, please shut the **** up.

I agree that as cultural stigmas go, rap has replaced rock n' roll as the offensive and misunderstood bastard child of music. Thank god for that, but there is still plenty of good rock out there, too. Music needed a good stiff crack in the jaw and rap was there to do it.

I'm glad that rap and hip-hop still create as much controversy as this thread shows. That's part of the music's benefit to society.


p.s. - Somehow, Eurpeans claiming to have valid cultural takes on these genres reminds me of that movie with the 4 or 5 Russian Elvis's composing a band on tour in the US. At best, they were caricatures of themselves and certainly of Elvis. Wish I could remember the name.
Old 8th June 2003
  #43
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Jax
p.s. - Somehow, Eurpeans claiming to have valid cultural takes on these genres reminds me of that movie with the 4 or 5 Russian Elvis's composing a band on tour in the US. At best, they were caricatures of themselves and certainly of Elvis. Wish I could remember the name.
Funny thing about your post is that you're same thing, different verse. Hip Hop as we know it today was born after some African American gentlemen went to see some German gentlemen by the name of Kraftwerk perform in NYC. It freaked them out. They went home and went to work trying to put rap on top of the crazy electronica and machine sounds. Afrika Bambaataa went so far as to lift an entire Kraftwerk tune. Great stuff came out of it. The rest is history.

If not for that revolutionary event, then Hip Hop would still be acts like the Sugar Hill Gang rapping over Disco cuts.
Old 8th June 2003
  #44
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Ruphus's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Very interesting what you weave around Jackson, but not inevitably stringent.

I had them when chating over loops came to media and I still have ears. I´m talking about music that´s what I do when it´s supposed to be about such.

I can´t imagine that I would had disliked that genre if it wasn´t too disturbing obviously the heritage of inability ( which get´s on my nerves when being forced to listen to it for longer than a couple of minutes and BTW, it´s just standard knowledge that aggressive monotonous hits push up auditoners pulse and make aggresive, thus only natural ), but if it e.g. had been grounded on inspiring and demanding choir techniques of african traditonal music. Thinking of it I´m sure it would had become a thrilling rhythmic and melodic music style.

Much harder though when it is supposed to be musical sound while sticking to shred lines all the time.

Nevertheless ...

Quote:
by Burt: Gangster rap means nothing to me. Don't relate to it, not interested in it.. the rappers seem to shout rather than have any real lyrical flow, its just trash. The lyrics are distasteful, the imagery negative and sexist.

HOWEVER - there is more to hip hop than this and its not particularly 'underground' either... there are numerous hip hop and r n b artists who are more in the spirit of the socially uplifting black artists of the past (Stevie, Marvin, Curtis, etc)... a perfect example would be Dwele and his track 'Money Don't Mean a Thing'.
I will try to find it and listen to it. Maybe it will be like on the DUC a while ago, where a guy presented his rap kind of creation which after all was made with fantasy and originality.
Old 8th June 2003
  #45
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
again...

"the heritage of inability"

allowing for your poor English - what exactly do you mean by this statement? Cos as I see it Hip Hop is part of a glorious black musical heritage with influences of jazz, Isaac Hayes monologues, James Brown's revolutionary rhythms, etc... and as previously mentioned the ingeneous fusing of other styles such as European electro-pop, etc. Lots of ABILITY.

Sounds like you have a poor grasp of African music too - there's no reason why Hip Hop artists should look 'back' to Africa at all for musical inspiration - they are Americans after all... but African traditional music cannot be judged on the traditional european values for harmony that you seem to imply. Harmony is simply not important in most African music - think horizontal not vertical, think modal not chordal, think melody not harmony... Repetitive, hypnotic, complex poly-rhythms - or maybe it just sounds like 'aggressive monotonous hits' to you - is responsible for such beautiful music as samba, bossa, batucada, afro-cuban, etc, etc.

You really are messed up. dfegad

Go check Common's LP: Like Water for Chocolate - go listen to the 'heritage of inability' on that album.

Burt
Old 8th June 2003
  #46
Lives for gear
 
Ruphus's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Cos as I see it Hip Hop is part of a glorious black musical heritage with influences of jazz, Isaac Hayes monologues, James Brown's revolutionary rhythms, etc...
You have a lot of fanatsy. Don´t you?
This stuff is cycled on the media for years now and never did I hear a piece of rap that had to do with jazz in any way. Rhythm? Go and learn what rhythm means. Musical rhythm has to do with variation. It can´t be the same pattern throughout a song and again and again for twenty years.

You might deny it as much as you want, but you can´t change the facts. It is musical inability when somebody takes other peoples music, cuts a fraction out and makes a line from it to have a song, which cannot be anything else than monotonous. Might be hypnotic for you, to me only degrading the listeners differentiation. This by the way has been scientifically proven with hiphop kids like you, while it hadn´t been necessary, cause it´s just logical.

And excuse my English. How many languages do you speak?
Old 8th June 2003
  #47
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jazzius's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Ruphus
blah blah blah blah
ermm.......you are one ill-informed fellow........

........yes
Old 8th June 2003
  #48
We are lucky to have so many nationalities on Gearslutz.com. Dont forget the internet isnt American, it's the World Wide Web.

Continue fierce intellectual debates on music by all means but skip the language skill criticisms please..

Thanks

Jules

Gearslutz admin
Old 8th June 2003
  #49
Mindreader
 
BevvyB's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Groan
This is starting to sound like the war thread

IMHO

No music is better than another

Some music is more relevant to some people than others

What some people call music, others call noise

It's entirely personal, which is what makes it so great

So don't knock other peoples views for being born where they were or living where they are or thinking like they do. How on earth do you expect them to understand when you're hitting them with the exact small mindedness you're accusing them of?

Simply show them your own viewpoint, musical examples and references and maybe we'll all get somewhere and learn something

Musical axes to grind help only in fixating on one small grievance which in turn deflects the topic from music to personal taste, which, of course, lays the foundations of a slagging match

EVERYBODYS viewpoint is relevant. Otherwise places like Gearslutz might as well fold up and go away. If you want to slag each other off go and do it somewhere else.

If you want to slag ME off however feel free. I don't care.

(Still can't believe that anyone can say that another person has 'no right' to think or say anything about anything)
Old 8th June 2003
  #50
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matucha's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
I respect rock, but don't like it (I don't understand it), I don't like rap, but I like almost every valuable modern electronic jazz and the best combos are with hip hop. Acts on Ninja Tune and DJ Shadow are the best examples. This is a "sidechain" of HipHop, but I thing it is pretty important one.

In the Czech Republic
After rock era in the `90, came (dance) electronic music that is after it's peak just now and most of the kids (around 15) are HipHop and looks like their wave is strong (full clubs/CDs are selling)... what's next?
Old 8th June 2003
  #51
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Ruphus's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
So don't knock other peoples views for being born where they were or living where they are or thinking like they do. How on earth do you expect them to understand when you're hitting them with the exact small mindedness you're accusing them of?
Bevvy,

That´s what I am exactly not doing. You can see that when you check what I said. I am talking about demanding or undemanding, varying or poor music.

I believe that level of culture is very important for intellect which again is the only means to get rid of injustice and exploitation.

So I am thinking the same way in visual arts. I think the fact that undemanding stuff like a couple of lines on a big canvas, photos taken from interenet blured and being sold for 25,000$ a piece and things like that, while capable artists can´t make a bread is a contraproductive status quo.

Indifferentiation is the way into the circumstances like they are now. Progress is rather likely where intellectual demand is supported. This the more demanding cultural products are.

What makes art in my personal eyes is the conjunction of ability with occurence of idea.

For mental development on the other hand it is known that variety and the ability to differentiate variety is what makes it.

I claim that the western level of culture and broad education is constantly sinking in the last decades and that it is not only visible with the latest Pisa study internationally made among pupils. In Germany after already having ridiculously simplified the language rules years ago it ( and weakend the specific strength of it to express most with fewest amount of words ) has even been decided to simplify academic literature, to take text out and put in more pictures as todays students have been found to not being able to concentrate anymore on complex themes.

Do you think the tendency to simplicism is the way to have ghettos change into fair living places?

I don´t and that´s what I was trying to say.
Old 8th June 2003
  #52
Mindreader
 
BevvyB's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
My post was aimed at the mood of this thread, not anyone in particular.
Old 8th June 2003
  #53
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jazzius's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Rufus



you do stuff



people :



a) like it


b) don't like it


c) don't give a ****


it ain't any more complicated than that.
Old 8th June 2003
  #54
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Hip Hop goes way back beyond when it first hit in the popular consciousness with the Sugar Hill Gang. It came out of a very old Southern storytelling tradition of rhythmic talking.
Old 8th June 2003
  #55
Gear Addict
 
mdbeh's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Actually, it's usually linked back to Jamaican toasting---DJ Kool Herc, one of the first (maybe the first) rappers, was a Jamaican immigrant.

It's roots are really all over the place, though--someone's already mentioned Africa Bambaata and Kraftwerk--which is one of the things that I think makes it interesting as a genre.
Old 8th June 2003
  #56
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pounce's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Teacher
your an idiot
well, i sometimes wonder what can be accomplished by a thread like this. not much chance people are going to switch opinions based on some internet comments. i think just about every poster, myself included, has mentioned that you either like it or you don't and you get back to work. of course, the occasional person has to let things degenerate from there into something less productive.

teacher, i'd leave them name calling for the playground. jeez, everyone is a tough guy on the internet.

and if you are going to call someone else an idiot, at least get your own spelling correct.

i am sure with many full time pro's on the list, we have some strong opinions about music (i dont' know that teacher is a pro, the avatar of sonar makes methink not) that will allow for animated discussions about musicality, music history, it's relation to culture, and musical trends. you have to have an opinion and an ear and bring those sensibilities to the studio.

if hip hop makes a person groove, good for them. there's plenty of it out there. it doesn't work for me. no big whoop. does listening to "move bitch get out the way" inspire me musically and lyrically? not really. hell, i have an mpc and many keyboards, but i need more than a 4 bar loop of any kind of music to stay interested. and i prefer lyrics that are a bit more compelling than the typically found money / bitches/ braggadocio on popular hip hop. and things like missy elliot doing fairly sexually explicit songs whose videos have kids on a playground dancing to it is irresponsible. i just dont' dig it. it's their right to make those songs, and other peoples right to listen to it, but my perogative to find it just kinda bad. look, i have to get back to work today, but i hope that regardless of musical tastes people can stick to discussing music and act like adults and professionals, which i presume this group is populated with.
Old 8th June 2003
  #57
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by mdbeh
Actually, it's usually linked back to Jamaican toasting---DJ Kool Herc, one of the first (maybe the first) rappers, was a Jamaican immigrant.
It goes back long before anyone was called "DJ" or "MC." It even goes back before there was electricity.

but, the jamaican toast tradition enters the picture as well.
Old 8th June 2003
  #58
Gear Addict
 
mdbeh's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by ozraves
It goes back long before anyone was called "DJ" or "MC." It even goes back before there was electricity.
Got some evidence for that? Of course, no music is ever truly "new"--it's always coming from somewhere, it's going to reflect existing forms, etc. But the account I mentioned seems to be pretty well accepted.
Old 8th June 2003
  #59
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pounce's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
i'd always thought dj's had as much to do with making music as projectionists had to do with making movies.

i saw a dj at a barmitvah recently, he played some great music like "the electric slide". he is the best musician i've ever met.
Old 8th June 2003
  #60
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Ruphus's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
heh heh heh
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