Quantcast
23rd june ... new Macs - Page 3 - Gearspace.com
The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
23rd june ... new Macs
Old 19th June 2003
  #61
Lives for gear
 
dave-G's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Johnny B
I as I understand the AD/DA converter issue, with a 24-bit word you effectively only get to use 18 bits. In the past there has been a lot of IAM distortion, jitter, and some bad math and bad code going on. A bigger word, say 32-bit, could help get these issues behind us once and for all.
Not to take too big a tangent, but how exactly would a "bigger word" get jitter, intermodulation (IAM?) distortion and "bad math" behind us once and for all??! Increased wordlength may yield more processing headroom and bigger dynamic range, but AFAIK, it has nothing to do with the issues you've mentioned. Plus, at a recording format of 24bits, we're pretty well up against analog electronics' (front-end's) inherent noise-floor and natural dynamic range limitations obscuring any perceptible improvement that say, 32 bit tracks might theoretically provide anyway...

Then again, I've got nothing against more = better... that's part of the gearslut's pledge of allegiance, ain't it?

Back to the Mac forecast!!!!
-dave
Old 19th June 2003
  #62
Lives for gear
 
andre tchmil's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
The NOISSSSSSEEEE, what about the noise with these computers ?
Old 19th June 2003
  #63
Lives for gear
 
Johnny B's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Dave

A bigger word has everything to do with it. Yeah, you can ony get 130 to 133db out of analog, but it is not just the effective dynamic range or meeting Nyquist's theorem (which, incidently may have a few problems with it which have yet to be fully understood) or how much you need to cover the frequency spectrum. Think about it this way, if you only got 18 effective bits out of 24, it tells you some of the other bits are needed to make the thing work and communicate. If I understand it correctly, which is questionable, that is the part where the bad math and errors in C coding has occurred in the past. We are going to need a few more bits is all I'm saying.

But a 32-bit word should be able to be processed by all the other 64-bit compaitble chips. As far as the extra unneeded bits that will be there, don't worry, the coders will figure out how to use them. Whenever you give them the extra capacity, the coders always figure a way to use it up.

I could even see some being used for routing between rooms, computers, processers or even buildings, but that would mean that some new definitions of the data package will have to be widely adopted.

To be honest I don't know how this will all shake out. I do know that there have been problems with the way converters have operated for years which are only now being addressed. And every time they deal with the problems it seems that they need to increase the capacity of the chips, so I expect to see more of the same here.

The new Apple could be huge step in the right direction. We'll see. And even more importantly, we'll hear!

In any event, the big Apple day is rapidly approaching. Does anyone have any more news?
Old 19th June 2003
  #64
Mindreader
 
BevvyB's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
The actual enclosure seen by anonymous sources is not square-edged, retains the trademark handles (though altered) and sports what is said to be a aluminum mesh/honeycomb/cheesegrater panel on the front face of the machine. The FireWire and USB ports on this front panel are also said to be accompanied by a sound port, which was not previously mentioned. Our little birdie was also eager to mention that the actual Power Macintosh G5 is "extremely more attractive" than the one that appeared in Tuesday's anonymous submission.
Old 20th June 2003
  #65
Lives for gear
 
dave-G's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Johnny B
Dave

A bigger word has everything to do with it. Yeah, you can ony get 130 to 133db out of analog, but it is not just the effective dynamic range or meeting Nyquist's theorem (which, incidently may have a few problems with it which have yet to be fully understood) or how much you need to cover the frequency spectrum. Think about it this way, if you only got 18 effective bits out of 24, it tells you some of the other bits are needed to make the thing work and communicate.
I don't think so -- it just means you've got a converter that's passing 24 bits, but with only 18 of them doing anything meaningful--only 18 actually "describing" the signal ... It can still work and communicate just fine. Kinda like recording a 16 bit AES signal at 24 bits--just some extra zeros at the end of the word.
Quote:
If I understand it correctly, which is questionable, that is the part where the bad math and errors in C coding has occurred in the past. We are going to need a few more bits is all I'm saying.
Need? I dunno.. Want? I guess, whenever it gets cheap enough to not care about the redundancy, and integrated enough to actually use. In the meantime, you might still just have 18 out of 32 effective bits.

Yet, you know what? In looking forward to new Macs, we're still not even talking about anything that would affect the issues you bring up ... Rather, these new Macs just mean we'll be getting better, faster computers.. not A/D converters outputting 32bit words.
Quote:
But a 32-bit word should be able to be processed by all the other 64-bit compaitble chips. As far as the extra unneeded bits that will be there, don't worry, the coders will figure out how to use them. Whenever you give them the extra capacity, the coders always figure a way to use it up.
You can do 64 bit processing on a 24 bit signal, too. As to what the "coders" will do.. I dunno.. It's math. Addition/multiplication can occur whether a signal says 011011011101101101000000 (with 6 empty bits) or 011011011101101101100101
Quote:
To be honest I don't know how this will all shake out. I do know that there have been problems with the way converters have operated for years which are only now being addressed. And every time they deal with the problems it seems that they need to increase the capacity of the chips, so I expect to see more of the same here.
I'm not sure what you're talking about. Much of the evolution in converter technology has centered around filters, clocking and analog front-end circuitry (which is why 2 converters built around the same converter IC can sound so different). The wordlength "capacity" of the chips has nothing to do with these advances, nor with the issues you mentioned in your first post: jitter (clock), intermodulation distortion, coding, etc.

And again, let's remember we're talking about an increase in the data inrastructure of a Macintosh CPU/microprocessor. This is not A/D conversion, nor is it a recording file-format, nor an audio-DSP format. The ways that native DAW manufacturers take advantage (or not) of the increased processing power of the new 970 chips remains to be seen, but I seriously doubt that any of the processing, whether 32 bit float, or 48 or 64 bit fixed will be occuring on anything greater than 24 bit files for a good-long while.

I'm sorry to keep hammering this tangent in this thread, and Johnny, I don't mean to pick, but your posts just seem a little askew in reference to some basic concepts of digital audio. Otherwise, I'm just as eager as you to get more-more-better-better performance, and to see what actual benefits these new Macs will bring to the equation.

Regards,
-dave
Old 20th June 2003
  #66
Lives for gear
 
dave-G's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
From appleturns.com:

Speaking of Apple retail stores, more and more sources are climbing on board with reports that Apple's own outlets and third party resellers alike have received Big, Mysterious Boxes labeled "Do Not Open Until Monday Or We'll Wear Your Entrails As A Grisly Feather Boa-Like Thingy (Only Without The Feathers)."


-dave
Old 20th June 2003
  #67
Lives for gear
 
Johnny B's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Dave

I'm glad you know a lot about the converter technology, but if you were really right about everything, then no one would have started using 24/192. In theory, you do not need that much, and yet, it is being used. I'm going to go out on a limb but I predict that within the next 3 to 5 years the original premises upon which Nyquist based these great math calculations will be shown to be lacking in several areas. In addition, there are other good reasons to increase the word-size in any computer application. On the other hand, you can do what Sony did, reduce the size and dramatically increase the speed. And I hear that the DSOTM album from Pink Floyd in SACD will knock your socks off.

You are also right that much work has gone into the filters, IAM, and the analog front end, but some folks still have trouble explaining the phenomena of "time smear." Julian Dunn was working on this before he passed away. Here's a link to some of his white papers you can download:

http://www.nanophon.com

We are in a continually evolving field regarding the technology of digital sound and it is certain that more will be revealed as we advance with the new technology. I believe Apple's new 64-bit box will help move us along this winding road to achieve excellent digital sound.

We'll see.
Old 20th June 2003
  #68
tee
Gear Nut
 
tee's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
oops!

Apparently there was a gaff on Apple's site this evening where they put up the G5 specs under the G4 page in the Apple store. Here's a link to the screen shot someone took before the store was closed for an hour (presumably to beat the **** out of the person responsible) and the page changed to "current" G4 specs. Sounds pretty ****ing cool!

http://www.garyschechter.com/G5/g5.html
Old 20th June 2003
  #69
Mindreader
 
BevvyB's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Apple inadvertently posted specifications for its forthcoming Power Mac G5 to the Apple online store late Thursday night. The accidental posting was first discovered about 11:45 PM EST, and was removed well within an hour.

An image on the Power Mac page reflected specifications for the new models, which are expected to be announced at next week's Worldwide Developers Conference. The image was the only changed page element -- photos, model breakdowns, prices, and ship dates were not posted.

The specifications confirm many of the details that had been circulating the web, but exceeded expectations in other areas. The new Power Macs were advertised as "the world's fastest personal computer," with the following options: 1.6GHz, 1.8GHz, or Dual 2GHz PowerPC G5 processors; up to 1GHz processor bus; up to 8GB of DDR SDRAM; Fast Serial ATA hard drives; AGP 8X Pro graphics options from NVIDIA or ATI; three PCI or PCI-X expansion slots; three USB 2.0 ports; one FireWire 800, two FireWire 400 ports; Bluetooth and AirPort Extreme ready; optical and analog audio in and out.
Old 20th June 2003
  #70
Mindreader
 
BevvyB's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
just in case
Attached Thumbnails
23rd june ... new Macs-step1bullet1powermac.gif  
Old 5th December 2019
  #71
Here for the gear
da tosu sa yayu mara kwanyonu https://bestextremestuff.com/ da esara accept ko
Old 5th December 2019
  #72
Here for the gear
da tosu sa yayu mara kwanyonu https://www.bestextremestuff.com/ da esara accept ko
πŸ“ Reply

Similar Threads

Thread / Thread Starter Replies / Views Last Post
replies: 55 views: 30648
Avatar for IM WHO YOU THINK
IM WHO YOU THINK 13th October 2020
replies: 15929 views: 1528860
Avatar for Ragan
Ragan 11th January 2019
replies: 1296 views: 178602
Avatar for heraldo_jones
heraldo_jones 1st February 2016
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearspace Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…

Forum Jump
Forum Jump