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Yamaha 02R The Legend for Summing
Old 29th January 2010
  #1
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🎧 10 years
Yamaha 02R The Legend for Summing

Hey Slutz

Let's talk about Yamaha 02Rs.
I have one that I currently use as for monitoring my synths.
However....., I am thinking of maybe mixing with this guy again...and almost using it as a summing mixer!!
This is my thought.. I currently use an RME Fireface 800 which has 8outputs and adat. Question I have is if I send 8 analog outs (almost as a summing box....) into the 02R and an additional 8 through my adat into the 02R and then use some of the functions on the 02R (especially the famous compressor) and then send the stereo buss back into my DAW through the adat lite pipe. I understand it isn't technically Analog summing as such, but would it not give more space and depth to a ITB mix no matter what? I also understand it's 20bit....

What are your thoughts on this?
Old 29th January 2010
  #2
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The MPCist's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
What kind of DAW are you using? I'm sure it would work but equally good results can be had inside the DAW as well. The 02R is basically a 'daw in a box with only mixing capabilities' so you might not get the space and depth that analog would give... but best way is just to try and see if it works for you or not.
Old 29th January 2010 | Show parent
  #3
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John Eppstein's Avatar
 
58 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Why would you ever want to use a digital mixer as a summing box? It would be much better to do it ITB - unless you want faders. The conversion on the Yammie is inferior to any modern computer interface.

Most people use external summing mixers to try to add a bit of analog goodness to a digital mix. Thje 02R won't do that.
Old 29th January 2010 | Show parent
  #4
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein ➑️
Why would you ever want to use a digital mixer as a summing box? It would be much better to do it ITB - unless you want faders. The conversion on the Yammie is inferior to any modern computer interface.

Most people use external summing mixers to try to add a bit of analog goodness to a digital mix. Thje 02R won't do that.
But this statement is not at all true and is a great example of the miscommunication between digital audio and the hybrid extension into analog.

For computers to remarkably sum in a way that relates to pleasant human perception, the rules of digital audio need to be completely rewritten, and such a task is too tall an order for an industry that is already working like a well oiled machine.


And the interface is a common myth, almost like the great lie, as for pointing to the instigator of infavorable results when perceiving the shortcomings of digital summing.
tutt

The problem lies more in an auditory explorative theory, one which the industry cannot possibly fathom at such a state in its existence. It is comparable to how the earliest analog to digital audio converters for the modern DAW always sound better than the current day highest end equivalents, because they were made before the notion and commonplace rule of standard calculations for conversion were written as they are accepted now by the consumer.
Old 29th January 2010 | Show parent
  #5
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CJ1973's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Is there anyone out there using it for a similar set up or likewise?
Old 29th January 2010
  #6
nkf
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ1973 ➑️
Hey Slutz

Let's talk about Yamaha 02Rs.
I have one that I currently use as for monitoring my synths.
However....., I am thinking of maybe mixing with this guy again...and almost using it as a summing mixer!!
This is my thought.. I currently use an RME Fireface 800 which has 8outputs and adat. Question I have is if I send 8 analog outs (almost as a summing box....) into the 02R and an additional 8 through my adat into the 02R and then use some of the functions on the 02R (especially the famous compressor) and then send the stereo buss back into my DAW through the adat lite pipe. I understand it isn't technically Analog summing as such, but would it not give more space and depth to a ITB mix no matter what? I also understand it's 20bit....

What are your thoughts on this?
The 02Rs summing sounds not good IMO, especially when using more than 8 Channels at once it becomes somewhat pale sounding very easily. I had two 02Rs many years ago as a kind of sub mixers for synths and samplers via ADAT lightpipe. There were ADAT cards available with 24 bit I/O. The internal DA of the 02R sounds bat too - 'flat' with bad stereo imaging. Generally I would avoid AD/DA of the 02R.
The idea to combine DAWs with digital mixers is very worthwhile though. This is what I do for a long time and have no plans to change this. A digital mixer is a matrix, mixer, FX box and a control surface. I don't like to call mixing 'summing' as this is a marketing nonsense to sell mixing devices without any EQ etc. as 'summing boxes'. That's just generalized term for adding signals, a thing every mixer does, no matter what capabilities it has beyond 'summing'.
Old 29th January 2010 | Show parent
  #7
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CJ1973's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nkf ➑️
The 02Rs summing sounds not good IMO, especially when using more than 8 Channels at once it becomes somewhat pale sounding very easily. I had two 02Rs many years ago as a kind of sub mixers for synths and samplers via ADAT lightpipe. There were ADAT cards available with 24 bit I/O. The internal DA of the 02R sounds bat too - 'flat' with bad stereo imaging. .
Hi
Thanks. Well i was thinking of the following options for mixing (and assuming 'summing' to get depth and spread)... How much quality would I use if I did the following:
1. 8 analog out to 8 analog in from RME Fireface 800 to 02R
2. 8 digital out through adat CD8-AT on 02R into RME Fireface adat

That gives me a total of 16 channels to mix on the 02R. Lets assume the stems are created on the DAW (Cubase). Let's also assume I will use RME's word clock as master.

I can route the mix back into daw through adat....

How bad of a set up would this be (or good?)? Thanks!!
Old 29th January 2010 | Show parent
  #8
Gear Guru
 
John Eppstein's Avatar
 
58 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by sergei_ilyayev ➑️
But this statement is not at all true and is a great example of the miscommunication between digital audio and the hybrid extension into analog.

For computers to remarkably sum in a way that relates to pleasant human perception, the rules of digital audio need to be completely rewritten, and such a task is too tall an order for an industry that is already working like a well oiled machine.


And the interface is a common myth, almost like the great lie, as for pointing to the instigator of infavorable results when perceiving the shortcomings of digital summing.
tutt

The problem lies more in an auditory explorative theory, one which the industry cannot possibly fathom at such a state in its existence. It is comparable to how the earliest analog to digital audio converters for the modern DAW always sound better than the current day highest end equivalents, because they were made before the notion and commonplace rule of standard calculations for conversion were written as they are accepted now by the consumer.
And your point is?????
Old 29th January 2010 | Show parent
  #9
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
Just give it a try and see... I had an 02R several years ago and while the converters are pretty harsh, the summing is way better than what I can achieve in Pro Tools.
Old 29th January 2010 | Show parent
  #10
nkf
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ1973 ➑️
Hi
Thanks. Well i was thinking of the following options for mixing (and assuming 'summing' to get depth and spread)... How much quality would I use if I did the following:
1. 8 analog out to 8 analog in from RME Fireface 800 to 02R
2. 8 digital out through adat CD8-AT on 02R into RME Fireface adat

That gives me a total of 16 channels to mix on the 02R. Lets assume the stems are created on the DAW (Cubase). Let's also assume I will use RME's word clock as master.

I can route the mix back into daw through adat....

How bad of a set up would this be (or good?)? Thanks!!
Hm ... if you won't let go the 02R I would use it as a sub mixer into the FireFace. The FF is probably much better sounding than the 02R. I also work with Cubase (and Nuendo) and I would prefer the clean mixing ('summing' if you insist) within these programs over the mixing 'sound' of the 02R any day. Mixing within Cubase sounds absolutely fine to me. I would use the FF800 DA for monitoring if possible in your situation.
The best would be stepping up to one of the newer Yamaha mixers, DM1000, 02R96 or DM2000, maybe even 01V96. I have the DM2000 and DM1000 and mix the stems coming from Cubase/Nuendo with them to have more (external) FX options and routing for stereo and surround productions, etc. Won't miss these mixers even if they're now quite old.
Old 29th January 2010 | Show parent
  #11
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🎧 10 years
You can try it, but my first thought was why?

You're adding in two extra conversion stages (the AD/DA conversion in the 02R is awful, along with the preamps), and just doing maths inside a silver box with Yamaha written on it as opposed to your computer.

Digital summing is just maths, and 2+2 inside a Yamaha mixer is exactly the same as 2+2 inside a computer (the Yamaha IS a computer).

Absolutely no point whatsoever. I'd use the 02R as a control surface.
Old 29th January 2010 | Show parent
  #12
Gear Guru
 
🎧 15 years
I never knew the 02R was a "Legend" for summing.

I never knew that mystical considerations made the 20-bit technology of yesteryear superior to what we have now.

You learn something new every day!
Old 29th January 2010 | Show parent
  #13
nkf
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexK ➑️
Digital summing is just maths, and 2+2 inside a Yamaha mixer is exactly the same as 2+2 inside a computer (the Yamaha IS a computer).
That's only true if the same math (algorithm) is implemented. Yamaha mixers are fixed point devices vs. floating point in most DAWs. That's just one difference ...
Old 29th January 2010
  #14
11413
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ1973 ➑️
What are your thoughts on this?
some kind of perverse april fools joke
Old 30th January 2010 | Show parent
  #15
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein ➑️
And your point is?????
My point is that you probably did not attempt to understand what I said. I already said it once, why say it twice?

The biggest factor here is what I call "delusion of authenticity." It is not simply enough to believe what you are saying. It is only valuable to know what you are saying.
Old 1st February 2010 | Show parent
  #16
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by sergei_ilyayev ➑️
My point is that you probably did not attempt to understand what I said. I already said it once, why say it twice?

The biggest factor here is what I call "delusion of authenticity." It is not simply enough to believe what you are saying. It is only valuable to know what you are saying.
Hi,
if I can be of any help-I work every day on DM2000, mostly classical and Jazz projects, and it works nice. When in need to push things more(like Funk, Pop/Rock etc.) I simply go to SSL plugs, API plugs etc.But, what comes in, that goes out-if not processed aditionally.That is a beauty with Yamaha digi-desks.If You need more "color", you need other weapon(analog?).
Have a nice day all...

Mladen
Zagreb-Croatia
Old 2nd February 2010 | Show parent
  #17
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AlexK's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
But that's simply not the case with the Yamahas, assuming you don't use the ADAT (which would be silly to say the least). The conversion in the early Yamahas (02R, 01V etc...) is really about as poor as it has ever been in 'pro' kit...
Old 4th February 2010 | Show parent
  #18
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexK ➑️
But that's simply not the case with the Yamahas, assuming you don't use the ADAT (which would be silly to say the least). The conversion in the early Yamahas (02R, 01V etc...) is really about as poor as it has ever been in 'pro' kit...
Yeah,
my first desk was Soundcraft-nice british sound!!, but, second was 02R-and that was more than 10 years ago.
As far as I know , DM2000 is completely rebuilded from scratch-in cooperation with Deutche Gr. Company.New converters and new mic preamps.Not a big deal but however-better than 02R...
Sincerely,

Mladen
Zagreb
Old 4th February 2010 | Show parent
  #19
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
I think the value of doing what you are proposing depends on your expectations. I have used an RME multiface to run stems out of my DAW into 8 channels of my 02R. I felt I was able to get better mixes with this approach despite the the less than ideal conversion. I was going from an all "prosumer" rig so it was a huge jump up for me because of the level of control and finesse I gained. The 02R was a $10,000 board new and you can feel it in the resolution of the faders, quality of the analog input and output stages, flexibility of the routing, etc. For me it made for stronger, clearer mixes.
I do hear the failings of the 02R's 10 year old conversion and processing when compared to a new 24/96 rig, but I don't think it makes or breaks a mix as much as many people on this forum do. Depending on the style of music and budget you are working with, I think that mixing through the 02R can give you more than you lose.
Try it, you might like it.
That said, if you can afford a newer 24/96 board that has the many of the same features as the 02R you will be much happier with the sonics.
Old 4th February 2010 | Show parent
  #20
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cl-audio's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
My setup is PT HD3 accel.I go 24 ch digital (AES) to Yamaha DM2000. I just use the Yamaha as a digital summing mixer and as a control surface. Works very well for me, def better then summing ITB. 99% of my work is mixing, and I'm lucky enough to still have tons of major label work. I have worked on projects where we mixed part of the album on a SSL 9000K (producer preference) and the rest on my setup (label pref because of $, lol), and at the end of the day there's no difference between the mixes.
Of course part of that is because I know my room well enough.
It's like being a carpenter, it should not matter what kind of hammer you use to nail in a nail, as long as you know how to use it

Claudio
Old 6th February 2010 | Show parent
  #21
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
Ive been using the O2r since 1997. I started with adats and moved to DAWs in 2000. I use it with an RME DIGI96 adat lightpipe into the computer. It gets the job done and sounds great. Adding the Big Ben WC master improved the imaging and depth noticeably. I use it for 8 channels in/out of DAW. I even use the built in SPX1000 for delays and flangers. Could the sound be improved by adding high end converters? Maybe...probably. It works for me as is. Labels have chosen mixes I've done on it compared to ones we did in a major studio with A-list engineers. Go figure.

I know it's limitations. It's ****ing harsh on the high end if you boost with the built in eq among other things. I just run my mixes though a re-tubed Peavey (don't laugh) VC/L 2, a very underrated (IMO) tube compressor/limiter, and the harshness goes. In a perfect world I would love the SSL Matrix, but can't really justify the purchase when my current setup gets the job done and me getting checks. I'm a producer who mixes his own stuff by the way, for what I would consider the "demo" but, sometimes gets used/chosen for the final mix.
Old 6th February 2010 | Show parent
  #22
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GearBit's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I know this isn't very gearslutz but....

If your music is amazing or memorable in any way then no one is going to give a fvck if your synths were summed through an 02R.
Old 6th February 2010 | Show parent
  #23
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dcrigger's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by cl-audio ➑️
My setup is PT HD3 accel.I go 24 ch digital (AES) to Yamaha DM2000. I just use the Yamaha as a digital summing mixer and as a control surface. Works very well for me, def better then summing ITB. 99% of my work is mixing, and I'm lucky enough to still have tons of major label work. I have worked on projects where we mixed part of the album on a SSL 9000K (producer preference) and the rest on my setup (label pref because of $, lol), and at the end of the day there's no difference between the mixes.
Of course part of that is because I know my room well enough.
It's like being a carpenter, it should not matter what kind of hammer you use to nail in a nail, as long as you know how to use it

Claudio

Yes, but unlike the original poster, you're going digitally from HD to the DM2000 (at 24 bit, and maybe as high 96k). Some might that your actually ITB - you've just expanded to a bigger, more evolved box. :-)

But the original poster is suggesting converting back to analog, then re-converting back to digital through the 02R's converters (lobbing off 4bits in the process), all to sum digitally using the 02R's state of the art circa 1995 prosumer architecture. I don't see how this equates to your rig at all?

Overall, I can't imagine how this could be a great idea. I really don't remember hearing anyone EVER touting 02R's as having their favorite A to D converters, so some how it might be good, to run every track unnecessarily through those converters just so it will LOOK like your summing analog - even though you'll still be summing digitally - is beyond me.

I thought the whole controversy of ITB vs OTB (besides the expense) is whether the advantages of the alleged superiority of a good analog summing circuit, is worth the hit of taking everything through an extra trip through the D to A's.

David
Old 6th February 2010 | Show parent
  #24
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cl-audio's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcrigger ➑️
Yes, but unlike the original poster, you're going digitally from HD to the DM2000 (at 24 bit, and maybe as high 96k). Some might that your actually ITB - you've just expanded to a bigger, more evolved box. :-)

But the original poster is suggesting converting back to analog, then re-converting back to digital through the 02R's converters (lobbing off 4bits in the process), all to sum digitally using the 02R's state of the art circa 1995 prosumer architecture. I don't see how this equates to your rig at all?

Overall, I can't imagine how this could be a great idea. I really don't remember hearing anyone EVER touting 02R's as having their favorite A to D converters, so some how it might be good, to run every track unnecessarily through those converters just so it will LOOK like your summing analog - even though you'll still be summing digitally - is beyond me.

I thought the whole controversy of ITB vs OTB (besides the expense) is whether the advantages of the alleged superiority of a good analog summing circuit, is worth the hit of taking everything through an extra trip through the D to A's.

David
Hi David,

point taken.

I think what I was trying to illustrate is that its ok to stray from the norm and just use whatever works for you. I agree with you that if you just look at the specs, this could not possibly sound good. On the other hand, I still think he should try it, never know, it might just be the magic combination for him.

As far as the 02r, I mixed plenty of songs that where tracked thru the 02r, some of them very big name artist, and at the end of the day, after it was mixed, they sounded just as good as the songs that where tracked at ocean way.
I know one big name producer that I used to joke with that the 02r will be the first sought after "vintage" digital board (although I really doubt that, lol).
thanks,

Claudio
Old 6th February 2010 | Show parent
  #25
Gear Guru
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcrigger ➑️
Overall, I can't imagine how this could be a great idea. I really don't remember hearing anyone EVER touting 02R's as having their favorite A to D converters,
I am with you, but actually someone did make something quite close to that claim in this very thread, though his posts seem to have vanished.

maybe having something to do with the "T" word.

anyway, it survives in a quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by sergei_ilyayev
It is comparable to how the earliest analog to digital audio converters for the modern DAW always sound better than the current day highest end equivalents, because they were made before the notion and commonplace rule of standard calculations for conversion were written as they are accepted now by the consumer.
Alas sergei disappeared before he could share with us the specific mathematical distinctions between the original "good" calculations, and today's "bad" calculations, but I take this as a claim that the Ancients (circa 1985) knew more about conversion than we do today.
Old 7th February 2010 | Show parent
  #26
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CJ1973's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by cl-audio ➑️
some of them very big name artist,
Totally. Madonna's 'Music' was done by Mirwais with an 02R. He even mentioned about using the 02R compressor to get that snap on the snare.
Madonna Mirwais....
COVERT Operation
as one of the posts mentioned, the 02R was used a significant time after it was 'out-dated'....
I understand it's different to the idea of 'summing' but its still mixed right?
What if I used the RME Fireface 800's word clock with the 02R as well? would that improve it somewhat?
Old 10th June 2011 | Show parent
  #27
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
People get too hung up about gear. There's so much gear snobbery. To be honest , regardless of what it says on paper, just trust your ears. In my experience, mixing through the o2r sounds much better, wider more depth than mixing solely in the box. Don't know why- it just does, and many producers I know personally, or have read about , feel the same, which is why it's the last piece of gear I'd ever want to get rid of. The current prices make it an absolute bargain, and IMHO this console is very under rated. I remember when it came out, several well known Producers at that time, were quoted as saying things like ' it sounds just like a Harrison' .
Old 10th June 2011 | Show parent
  #28
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiomm ➑️
Yeah,
my first desk was Soundcraft-nice british sound!!, but, second was 02R-and that was more than 10 years ago.
As far as I know , DM2000 is completely rebuilded from scratch-in cooperation with Deutche Gr. Company.New converters and new mic preamps.Not a big deal but however-better than 02R...
Sincerely,

Mladen
Zagreb

I'm sorry for the hi-jack, but -

Dobrodosao u GearSlutz! I was born in Zagreb, go back reasonably often, it's a great city!

Ivan
Old 10th June 2011 | Show parent
  #29
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chrisrnps's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by sergei_ilyayev ➑️
My point is that you probably did not attempt to understand what I said. I already said it once, why say it twice?

The biggest factor here is what I call "delusion of authenticity." It is not simply enough to believe what you are saying. It is only valuable to know what you are saying.


Quote:
It is comparable to how the earliest analog to digital audio converters for the modern DAW always sound better than the current day highest end equivalents...
Old 10th June 2011 | Show parent
  #30
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Llitsor's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooli ➑️
People get too hung up about gear. There's so much gear snobbery. To be honest , regardless of what it says on paper, just trust your ears. In my experience, mixing through the o2r sounds much better, wider more depth than mixing solely in the box. Don't know why- it just does, and many producers I know personally, or have read about , feel the same, which is why it's the last piece of gear I'd ever want to get rid of. The current prices make it an absolute bargain, and IMHO this console is very under rated. I remember when it came out, several well known Producers at that time, were quoted as saying things like ' it sounds just like a Harrison' .
You are over a year late to this thread. Not to mention talking out of your derrière. Are you pimping it because you have one to sell somewhere?? You wouldn't be the first to try that on.

Yamaha made, and still do make some fantastic kit. And those digital desks were pretty ok at the time. But, even at that time, I thought they sounded bloody awful. I knew within 5 minutes of turning mine on that I wasn't going to get along with it. No mojo, no depth, no, nothing. Nice features, but nearly everything that emerged from the outputs sounded like it was coming from a cheap CD player.
One of the few bits of kit I sold, and I don't miss it for a moment.

(Im talking about 02R's and 03D's, I expect and hope later digi desks were better)
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