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Future of TMD under X and prices of TDM rigs
Old 14th May 2003
  #1
Lives for gear
 
jeronimo's Avatar
Future of TMD under X and prices of TDM rigs

Hello yall... I've been trying to make a "switch" from PT LE to something a little more powerfull (plugin wise) but I'm finding difficult to forget PT and go with DP or Logic, mostly because of editing and automation... maybe it's just me...
Now, I'm seriously thinking about getting an used TDM mix or mix+ rig w/ a couple of A/D/A converters so I can track 16ch at a time...
How do you guys feel about the future of TDM? Will digi leave it on the upgrades future?
How much should I pay for a Mix + w/ an ADAT bridge?
Old 15th May 2003
  #2
Founder
 
Jules's Avatar
I am just selling / sold (?) my Apogee AD8000SE / 888/24 Mix + / USD / G4 / dual hotswap scsi drive for about Β£8,000 UK pounds..

I am keeping the MAIN rig heh

I can't afford HD but I want it!
Old 15th May 2003
  #3
Gear Head
 
🎧 15 years
wondering more broadly about the "future of tdm," who has seen all the new avid stuff? dna i think its called. its basically firewire - no video boards, no huge amount of pci cards.

if avid is doing it for a very powerful video editing system, what's to say they won't go that way for protools as well? can the dsp load of a fully loaded protools rig really be that much more than a big avid rig?

i could be wrong, but i'm wondering if anyone else has insight here...

meanwhile the decision for me is easy -- all i can afford for my system at home will be an mbox.......

-a-
Old 16th May 2003
  #4
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jeronimo's Avatar
Hey Jules... how much is that in US$?
Have anyone heard about Digi dropping support for TDM?
Old 17th May 2003
  #5
Founder
 
Jules's Avatar
$13,000 USD

Just sold (I think)

Thats popbably a bit high for US prices, PT stuff costs more here in Europe.
Old 17th May 2003
  #6
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jeronimo's Avatar
Uhh... a little out of my range...
Old 18th May 2003
  #7
Here for the gear
 
OvrMyHd's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
if avid is doing it for a very powerful video editing system, what's to say they won't go that way for protools as well?

The simplest answer to this is: ROI...return on investment.

Having edited film/video exclusively on Avid products for the last 13 years, I feel confident in saying that you'll likely see cross-over technology like this if and only if they've recouped their R&D expenses from their Symphony/Composer/DS side first. That's sort of a "duh...of course" observation, but as a company Avid faces quite a dillema: The mid to high-end editing market comprises the bulk of their business, and most of their big profits come from "full system sales" via their reseller chains. Unfortunately, the majority of the market (at least here in the states) already has their products in place, which means Avid must maintain consistent revenue flow from various (and economically less-significant) sources such as software upgrades, maintenance agreements and so on. The purchase of Digidesign and the subsequent advancement of Pro Tools was, in early Avid propoganda, explained as their attempt to do for professional audio what they'd done for film/video editing and that film editors would enjoy the benefits of Digi plugins within their picture editing devices (composer, etc...).

However, and here's the point of my reply really, they never successfully cross-pollenated their audio plug-ins or sub-frame audio editing capabilities with their picture editing platforms. And it's this one example that makes me think Pro Tools won't see parallel advancment with their Composer/Symphony devices. The divisions within Avid are really very seperated and if I wasn't already bitter about their lack-luster advancements in the film/video world for the last 6 years, I might've held out hope that the techs at Avid are swapping ideas at the watercooler...but, I don't think they are.

My 2 cents, FWIW
Old 19th May 2003
  #8
Gear Head
 
🎧 15 years
i, too, have been dissapointed in the lack of audio improvements in avid products. everything here is edited on avids (2 symphonies at the moment) and years ago when avid bought digi i was confident we'd see 24bit audio in the avid soon. finally now the dna stuff has it, but its still unbeleivable that symphony does not. i understand its a hardware issue, but come on!!!

all this being said, i agree with ovrmyhd in the end -- i expect tdm to stick around for quite some time. otherwise digi is admitting that all our money spent on tdm cards wasn't giving us that much advantage after all...

-a-
Old 19th May 2003
  #9
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dave-G's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by africk
i expect tdm to stick around for quite some time. otherwise digi is admitting that all our money spent on tdm cards wasn't giving us that much advantage after all...
I'd be very surprised if digi didn't offer some kind of UBER-DSP process card at some point in the not-too-distant future... Seems like the next logical step; something that will widen the gap even further over host-based rigs, and burn yet another hole in my pocket.

-dave
Old 19th May 2003
  #10
urumita
 
7rojo7's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Right now there's no "professional" audio rig that doesn't use some sort of "outboard" DSP. I could be wrong, and surely someone is doing very very professional work with systems that don't use it. I'm sure that if someone were to return to using only offset editing or fly-ins and slipping that truly professional results can be had.
Someone mentioned R&D and profits and so-on. You won't see any major offerings in this area untill they've soaked everything they can out of this. You might see another company besides the biggies release something shouting out that the Messiah has arrived. Progress makes profits when there is a market.
Who cares if your Granmah can make movies like Spielberg or albums like emminem on her laptop and 2 cents. If you want cutting edge you have to take the risk of not having enough support. In the end a studio owner offers reliabilty with capability, capability without reliability sounds alot like the Titianic.
To explore new possibilities you need to keep a second rig together. For doing commercial work (any client who pays) you need to offer reliable service.
If you have a system that uses TDM DSP now you'll work safely for the next ten years. When Studer made the A827, not everyone with an A80 sold theirs. Work is the answer to this thread, work with whatever you have.
Old 19th May 2003
  #11
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
I'd be very surprised if digi didn't offer some kind of UBER-DSP process card at some point in the not-too-distant future... Seems like the next logical step; something that will widen the gap even further over host-based rigs, and burn yet another hole in my pocket.
This will happen, BUT - digi will wait until the next generation of PCI card technology arrives in new Mac's (probably sooner than we think - July even?). Then they should be able to at least double the speed AND width of data to the cards. After apple switches their motherboards to a new card design (which may be backwards compatible) Digi will make a new 'uber-card' to go into these new slots. Fortunately in the past card upgrades have been cheaper than external hardware upgrades. Also - then hopefully we will be able to run 96khz or 192kHz TDM sessions using Waves Masters and other plug-ins that currently overburden single chips on the current technology.

Here's a somewhat outdated post on MacRumors from last year concerning new card architecture. I haven't seen mention of it lately - but that's because everyone is buzzing about the new 970 processor.


Quote:
PCI Express is the next evolution of PCI technology, which allows internal components of a PC, such as the microprocessor, to communicate with devices (such as graphics cards) attached through expansion slots. PCI-X is a bus technology used within computers to allow chips to exchange data at faster speeds than current PCI technology allows.

According to this older Newsfactor article, Apple is involved with 3GIO, another high speed successor to PCI:

The PCI Special Interest Group (PCI-SIG), of which Apple is a member, is attempting to push the 3GIO standard while retaining support for the still-emerging PCI-X standard. The group is telling users that PCI-X is optimized for high-end applications used on servers and workstations, while 3GIO is targeted toward general-purpose applications that run on desktops and mobile devices.
Old 19th May 2003
  #12
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I expect what happens on the Wintel side will have far more to do with where digi gos than what happens on the Mac side.

Ultimately it'll all revolve around multiple native processors simply because they are lots cheaper to program than DSP chips and the biggest expense is always programming and testing.
Old 19th May 2003
  #13
Here for the gear
 
OvrMyHd's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
I expect what happens on the Wintel side will have far more to do with where digi gos than what happens on the Mac side.

I absolutely agree. It's no secret that Avid has a shaky relationship with Apple (courtesy of their very public statement that they were stopping Mac R&D and tech support for their Composers/Symphonies). Plus, doesn't Apple market/support Logic? I have to imagine that they'd be more inclined to delay new board/processor details to third parties (and competition) until their own product is working on the new technology. Sort of like they've done with Final Cut Pro?

Maybe I've watched too many episodes of the X-Files and am seeing conspiracies that arent' really there. Dunno. But I for one will be joining the Wintel observers on this one.
Old 19th May 2003
  #14
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Zep Dude's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Unfortunately, the same rumors site is now saying that the PCI-X won't happen in the next generation of macs so it will be another year wait. I would love for Digi to release another uber-card soon for the purpose of allowing some of the power hungry plugins like Waves Masters (which I really dig) to run at higher sample rates.

In the short term, TDM is completely necessary. Heck, I can only get a few Altiverbs on my G4 867 before it starts farting.

Zep

majesticmusic.com

ormusic.com
Old 19th May 2003
  #15
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dave-G's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Bob Olhsson
I expect what happens on the Wintel side will have far more to do with where digi gos than what happens on the Mac side.
My god... I really hope you're wrong. Anytime I try to use a wintel machine, I get headaches and mild nausea, just like when I try to read while in a moving car.

-dave
Old 19th May 2003
  #16
Gear Maniac
 
hammer's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
TDM is necessary?
Um, dunno about this one. I know a lot of you guys out there have invested a lot af cash in TDM, so don't take any of this the wrong way. it is not meant to offend. But Digi has already implemented the sucessor to TDM. It's called RTAS. Now b4 you all start laughing have a think about it. RTAS is just waiting in the wing for when DSP stuff can't be devoloped quick enough to keep up with CPU's. It is kinda happening already at the more pedestrian sample rates (44,48k). There are guys out there running 3 ghz P4s or Athlons (macs aren't quite in the running yet, sorry, have to wait untilkl the 970) using protools LE (RTAS only) that have more power than they can dream of. I'm talking here about a LOT of plugs running at very low latency. It;s hard to justify getting a TDM system when you can run a LE system capable of running over 40 good quality plugs at really low latency.
Higher sample rates are a different kettle of fish....at the moment. And the current tools LE offerrings have their limitations (obviously, cause digi wants you to buy TDM systems).
But when the time comes, all digi has to do is switch over to RTAS. Which will benefit everybody, cause it means that everything will be backwards compatible as TDM and RTAS (er kinda ) are now.


All that being said, there are some rocking nuendo, sonar, logic, samplitude, sx rigs out there too. They aren't limited by track count or inputs/outputs either. some of you mac/protools junkies would be surprised by how much grunt these cheap rigs actually have. But then again have you ever tried to take your sonar file into a commercial studio?

peace
H.
Old 20th May 2003
  #17
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Sorry about the Mac-centric reply - BUT - apple will undoubtedly pick the newer high performance PCI standard that both the largest number of PC manufacturers adopt and Digidesign and other companies seem to prefer - just like it was with PCI. Then I believe DIGI will follow suit with new cards. Even those choosing to stay native will need cards if they require massive amounts of I/O. I believe we are still years away from Native processing handling the sort of massive DSP that many want. Espescially to do some of the things in digital we can't yet do - lots of tracks at 192kHz or DSD - and running Waves masters plugs in full TDM mode at 96 much less 192kHz.
Old 20th May 2003
  #18
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Paul Turpin
... I believe we are still years away from Native processing handling the sort of massive DSP that many want.
Depends on what you mean by "native." I agree it will be a long time before it's all running on one chip of a general purpose home computer.

On the other hand, the cost of programming DSP chips is not competitive which makes a move to RISC processing absolutely inevitable. This may take the form of risc chips on a board replacing the use of dsp chips but any way you cut it, the handwriting has been on the wall for over five years.

Myself, I expect to see a move in the direction of workstation/hardware interfaces dedicated to specific production tasks. Most of these may well run native in every sense of the term.
Old 21st May 2003
  #19
Gear Head
 
🎧 15 years
Slightly OT, but someone told me a while back of rumors that Digi were going to shove mac/pc and just build their own machines. So you go any buy 'proTools' and get something complete.

I suppose Apple dont exactly make it easy for them. Lets see, how may slots shall we put in. They're getting better with the space inside, but 4 mix cards, 1 SCSI & 1 fibre, dont go into 4. How about a 6 or 8 slot G4? I know this is an old one, keeps Magma happy though I guess.

It just would be nice not to have to pay another Β£1300 ontop of your computer just to fit everything in. I guess it depends on your budget.

To bring it more on topic, I just miss the flexibility of a TDM system when Im in Logic (ASIO). Half of that though is PT, not just TDM. There are some great sounding TDM plug-ins though, that you just cant get anywhere else, and if you need surround then TDM is a necessary over LE.

just a thought,
all the best
Tom
Old 21st May 2003
  #20
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by hammer
TDM is necessary?

All that being said, there are some rocking nuendo, sonar, logic, samplitude, sx rigs out there too. They aren't limited by track count or inputs/outputs either. some of you mac/protools junkies would be surprised by how much grunt these cheap rigs actually have. But then again have you ever tried to take your sonar file into a commercial studio?

peace
H.
This is my first post on Gearslutz. I would like to preface this by saying Im a hobbyist, not a profession audio egineer but I am a pro PC/Network geek . . .

2 years ago, I mixed an album for a friend's NuMetal band that had ridiculous track count (70+ on some songs) on a Pentium III 1 GHZ PC using Cubase VST/32 and a whole bunch of plugins. Yes, it was recorded at 44.1 KHz and the CPU did have some help (2 Yahmaha DSP Factory cards and some outboard Lexicon reverb) but the results came out pretty damm good considering the corners we obviously cut. A few songs even got airplay on the "Ron and Fez show" on 102.7 in NYC. Of course the singer had to agree to get his scrotum pierced for the songs to get air play . . .

Would I consider this rig professional? Not even close but I built it in 2000. Today's modern CPUs have a sick amout of processing power and they will keep getting faster and faster in the future. The bottom line will be the software and it's features, that will seperate the "pro" form the "semi-pro." The hardware is going to become a moot point.

And you are right about taking a Sonar file to a studio. Whenever I needed to do a transfer or track some drums, I always had to bring my DAW with me!
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