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David Lucas Burge's Perfect Pitch Course, what other courses like it?
Old 30th August 2009
  #1
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🎧 15 years
David Lucas Burge's Perfect Pitch Course, what other courses like it?

I've been doing pretty well on with my Davis Lucas Burge's perfect pitch course. However, as the course progresses the exercises become impractical. I was wondering what other courses are as famous and good as the relative pitch course? I tried the relative pitch and it was straightforward since you can just sit there and he plays the notes for you. You do 20 you pass, move on to the next. Looking for the same for training perfect pitch. Thanks.

EDIT: I decided to edit my original post after I read Henry's question below. I can see how a lot of you see not much use in acquiring perfect pitch because I felt that way at first. Now that I've been doing it for a few weeks it has helped me listen much more critically and clearly. This might sound funny to some of you and it is hard to explain but now I automatically hear colors and a certain emotion from each note. Is hard to describe the 'emotions' behind each note like A being passion, B being sadness but in terms of hearing colors if I hear an A I automatically feel is red, F purple, G orange, E yellow, C brown, etc. This way of hearing has really helped my songwriting/compositions tremendously. Besides that I'm now singing in tune or much better than before the course, I automatically pick up what strings on my guitars are out of tune and be able to tune them back (I couldn't do that before).

Being able to name the right notes or tune my guitar without a tuner are just bonuses. Being able to hear much more critically and compose better plus more importantly the improvement I've made in singing is why im doing it.

I do have to agree, however, that relative pitch is more important than perfect pitch.

But hey... whatever works for you best is all it matters.
Old 30th August 2009
  #2
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🎧 15 years
You can take ear training courses at colleges which teach it as part of their music degree program.
Old 30th August 2009 | Show parent
  #3
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JoeyM's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
When I told them I had perfect pitch, they laughed at me in A 440 heh
Old 30th August 2009 | Show parent
  #4
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🎧 15 years
Relative pitch is easy, just memorize (the ingenious part is you already have it memorized, you need to practice identifying/labeling it) a tune with the interval in it. A sixth is the first two notes of N-B-C.... Now wasn't that easy. A perfect fourth is Here Comes the bride..... I have a theory book written for my student with explanation and examples of the whole topic. Pm me and I will send you a word file.
Old 30th August 2009 | Show parent
  #5
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🎧 15 years
I've been seeing this geek's ads in the back of International Musician (the Musician's Unions monthly pub.) for years.

What kind of special guy wears a black leather overcoat and hat to tout his "perfect pitch" method?
Old 30th August 2009 | Show parent
  #6
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doorknocker's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 20 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Curtis ➡️
I've been seeing this geek's ads in the back of International Musician (the Musician's Unions monthly pub.) for years.
It's been in 'Guitar Player' for decades.....

I fail to see how perfect pitch would really be a benefit, assuming his method would really work.

Ear training/relative pitch, no that's another matter. Ever since I got an iPhone, I've been working with the 'Karajan' app. I think it's just fabtastic and it's perfect for the iPhone because it lets you practice whenever you got some time to kill or spare.

KARAJAN - Music & Eartrainer for iPhone & iPodTouch
Old 30th August 2009 | Show parent
  #7
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by doorknocker ➡️
It's been in 'Guitar Player' for decades.....

I fail to see how perfect pitch would really be a benefit, assuming his method would really work.
I know a few, genuine "perfect pitch" people (and about the same number of fake PP folks), and they tend to be the most annoying person in the room.

As a musician, I practice relative pitch all day long. And you tend to be able to identify pitches that someone else is playing on your instrument from the timbre.

The only guys that really, really NEED PP are oboe players (tuning note for the Orch.) and timpani players. I knew a timpanist who got o many jobs because he never had to use a pitch pipe to change his timp's pitches during a piece. And they were always perfectly in tune.

The rest of us can get by with a tuner on the stand if need be.

Greg

.
Old 30th August 2009 | Show parent
  #8
Registered User
 
🎧 15 years
Yes C to A is a sixth, but in the context of the "N B C" melody the second pitch is really a 3rd because the melody is basically V - III - I.
If you start the melody on a C you have an F major chord.

You are starting that melody on the V.

It is pretty obvious that the whole thing resolves to a major chord.

I am saying this only because it might confuse some people.

Of course this can be twisted all around and you can name the chord formed by the intervals a lot of things but in the most easily conveyed form it is a major chord with the inversion where the V is the bottom note.
Old 30th August 2009 | Show parent
  #9
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doorknocker's Avatar
 
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🎧 20 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Curtis ➡️
I And you tend to be able to identify pitches that someone else is playing on your instrument from the timbre.
Exactly! And because eartraining is often piano-centric I guess that's why some folks mistake that for PP.

BTW, I like the fact that you change sounds on the Karajan iPhone app, it's especially useful for chords.
Old 30th August 2009 | Show parent
  #10
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Dale Turner's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbbubba ➡️
Yes C to A is a sixth, but in the context of the "N B C" melody the second pitch is really a 3rd because the melody is basically V - III - I.
If you start the melody on a C you have an F major chord.

You are starting that melody on the V.

It is pretty obvious that the whole thing resolves to a major chord.

I am saying this only because it might confuse some people.

Of course this can be twisted all around and you can name the chord formed by the intervals a lot of things but in the most easily conveyed form it is a major chord with the inversion where the V is the bottom note.
EXACTLY!

Yeah, that messes up people, because you want to (first) try to learn how each note in a (for instance) major scale sounds when played (above and) after the tonic. ("My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean" does the same thing, opening with a Major 6th spacing, but: 5 (below tonic) then up to (above tonic) 3-2-1, etc. I try training people to use that "Happy Trails" backing vocal riff ("bom-ba-dee-da" = 1-5-6-5), among other things. Or a blues boogie pattern 1-5-1-6-1 type thing. (Over time, I try training them to hear a "6" as a whole step above a "5," and a "b6" as 1/2 step above a 5.)

Same problem with "Here Comes the Bride": The *distance* between its first two notes is a Perfect 4th, but the melody is from the "5," going UP to the tonic. Messes people up too. The Doors' "Rider's on the Storm" is good for 1-4 in a minor key. The riff to Scorpions "China White," or something... which hardly anyone knows, sadly.... The riff to "I'm a Man," or "Bad to the Bone..." Actually, that newish (*gasp*) Taylor Swift song: "Romeo take me..." goes 1-4. Eventually you'll hear 1-4 as a suspension, melodically. The 4 usually drops to "3" or "b3," or ascends to "5."

Others that mess people up, once they realize they need to hear these intervals in a "major or minor-specific" tonal context:

Minor 3rd, if you use "Brahm's Lullaby," it's really going from the 3 up to 5 of the major scale (minor 3rd spacing, but not 1-b3 of a minor scale).

Minor 7th, "Somewhere," is really going from the 5 (below tonic) up to 4 of major scale (minor 7th spacing, but not 1-b7 of a minor scale).

Major 2nd (usually don't need a tune, but...), "War Pigs," or "If 6 was 9," they're really going from the b7 (below tonic) up to tonic (major 2nd spacing, but not 1-2 of a major scale).

Etc.

OP: Don't waste your time trying to "learn" perfect pitch if you're over four years old. RELATIVE PITCH is totally attainable though. Put all your eggs in that basket!
Old 30th August 2009 | Show parent
  #11
Gear Guru
 
theblue1's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
There's free online ear training among the nifty set of tools in Eddie Boston's Chorderator Chord Generator complex of free online tools: Guitarator » Interval Quiz (Audio)
Old 30th August 2009 | Show parent
  #12
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henryrobinett's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I also don't really see the usefulness of perfect pitch. If you're using pitch correction to correct individual pitches, OK. But more often than not I think people tend to think it's some short cut to understanding and creating music. If they can hear perfect pitch they can more readily decipher what they're hearing without actually knowing what they're doing. Ultimately I don't think it really works that way. There is no short cut. You still gotta know what you're doing.

The short cut actually is to learn music and increase your ears awareness and comprehension by both ear training and music theory. But perfect pitch? I don't know. Why?
Old 30th August 2009 | Show parent
  #13
Registered User
 
🎧 15 years
Henry is correct.

It is handy to be able to identify pitches it doesn't do much for you as a player.

The real trick is to be able to identify chord progressions and melodies by what has been already played.
In other words, knowing the history or stylistic background of what you are hearing.
A good player can almost always anticipate what the next chord will be unless the piece in question has a a big accidental inserted for effect.

I was somewhat amused at the earlier post about Stevie Winwood being able to sit with a pen and pad and notate the song as he was hearing it.
That is common stuff.
If you have a decent and trained ear it is easy to do that.
Unless a piece is very sophisticated I can easily do that.

In fact, the whole Nashville "number system" of notation is pretty well based on the whole ability to know your intervals.
After you know the intervals you have to know the rules that tell you what he chord will most likely be.
(eg. The II is a minor)


This stuff isn't a mystery.
There is a theory behind it and most western music (especially well written pop music) follows these "rules."
It does two things... one is to make music sound familiar and comfortable and the second is to give a standard to work off of that allows things to sound different.
Old 30th August 2009 | Show parent
  #14
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
I understand their relationship in the context of the songs, in fact I have performed Treulich geführt. However the purpose of using these tunes is so that when you hear the interval, it IMMEDIATELY registers in your mind that is a fourth etc. In fact you are better off finding a song you are intimately familiar with, as the sound is so well "implanted" in your brain, it becomes easy to recall it. Take your favorite songs, analyze them, analyze birds chirping, engines, repeat process, repeat, repeat...... die. Welcome to the life of a musician.
Old 31st August 2009 | Show parent
  #15
Registered User
 
🎧 15 years
Like a lot of you are saying, I completely agree that relative pitch is much more important than perfect pitch. However, perfect pitch has helped me beyond being able to just identify a note. Otherwise, no way I would try to do this! Especially when David Lucas Burge gets on my nerves so badly.

I edited my original post and elaborated further on that plus hopefully answered Henry's question from my perspective.
Old 31st August 2009 | Show parent
  #16
Registered User
 
🎧 15 years
Ricci Adams' Musictheory.net has a free interval trainer that is pretty cool. It also has a chord trainer and some other useful stuff.

If you are serious about developing your ear it would probably be the best bang for your buck to take a college class. I did that and it helped a lot.
Old 31st August 2009 | Show parent
  #17
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DAWgEAR's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I can't help with perfect pitch, but if you are interested in relative pitch, google Bruce Arnold. In a nutshell, his method has you learn to identify degrees against a tonic rather than intervals.

Why is this more practical? C to E is a major third regardless of key, but C and E have a different function in the key of A than they do in the key of C or F or ... you get the picture.

Burge's Relative Pitch course is very comprehensive.

I have used both Arnold and Burge's methods. I can enthusiastically recommend both.
Old 31st August 2009 | Show parent
  #18
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1 Review written
🎧 20 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbbubba ➡️
It is handy to be able to identify pitches it doesn't do much for you as a player.

The real trick is to be able to identify chord progressions and melodies by what has been already played.
I once took an ear training course and the teacher was very helpful. A lot of kids incl. myself were very insecure when it came to 'theory' but when somebody couldn't name an interval he simply said 'sing it'....practically everybody COULD sing it and so he said 'if you can sing it this means that you can HEAR it so it's just a matter of naming it'. This was very helpful for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbbubba ➡️
In fact, the whole Nashville "number system" of notation is pretty well based on the whole ability to know your intervals.
After you know the intervals you have to know the rules that tell you what he chord will most likely be. (eg. The II is a minor)
I think it's mainly a matter of practice. Once you know a few hundred songs it simply will fall inot place, no matter whether you can read or write music or not. So much has to do with genre.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbbubba ➡️
This stuff isn't a mystery.
There is a theory behind it and most western music (especially well written pop music) follows these "rules."
The rules always came after the fact say that classical music it was voice leading doesn't 'allow' paralell fifths even though you often will find it anyway. Thankfully Ray Davies didn't know this when writing 'You really got me'!

There's no better example than the Beatles really (I assume they qualify for 'well-written pop music') They took a lot of information from early rock and roll but also Tin Pan Alley stuff and came up with the most amazing melodies and pregressions WITHOUT having the theoretical knowledge behind it. Naturally George Martin was very influental as well so basically it was a great combo of 'ignorant bliss' and schooled craft but the most important and elusive element was inspiration which unfortunately can't be taught in school or bought online.

I'd say just find your own way to do it. Training your ears is very important, you might learn Beatles tunes by ear or you might work with books. In the end it's not a question of how much you know but rather how well you are using that information.
Old 31st August 2009 | Show parent
  #19
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weezul's Avatar
 
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🎧 15 years
if you really want to enahnce your relative pitch.. read this book "Hearing and Writing Music "

Hearing and Writing Music: Professional Training for Today's Musician: Amazon.co.uk: Ron Gorow: Books

full of great exercises!!
Old 31st August 2009 | Show parent
  #20
Registered User
 
🎧 15 years
Sitting around and curiously listening to notes being played for 15 minutes a day couldn't be bad for ya, i figure...
Old 31st August 2009 | Show parent
  #21
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🎧 10 years
Perfect pitch can be handy -- tuning timpani was a breeze back in my orchestral percussion college days -- but good relative pitch is more useful and more worth the investment of ear-training time. Relative pitch enables you to tune your guitar....perfect pitch will get you the first note. The latter is far less important.

PP is a good problem solving tool. It's not really a musical skill, and definitely not a talent. Just a trait. I'm glad to have it -- it does have its uses -- but it can also be a nuisance or a distraction. Playing a C on an alto sax and hearing an Eb coming out of the horn might confound me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Curtis ➡️
I know a few, genuine "perfect pitch" people (and about the same number of fake PP folks), and they tend to be the most annoying person in the room.
Maybe it makes me annoying too....but I try not to parade it around. heh

And while I agree with the OP that different musical keys tend to have distinct emotional qualities, I don't think that's a perception that only PP folks have.
Old 31st August 2009 | Show parent
  #22
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
I pitched in with a few friends in college andwe bought his CD's and shared them. The thing that was most useful about them was learning how to label the sounds in your mind. Hearing a sound is pretty abstract and by attaching other senses to it, it becomes more tactile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale Turner ➡️
EXACTLY!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale Turner ➡️

Yeah, that messes up people, because you want to (first) try to learn how each note in a (for instance) major scale sounds when played (above and) after the tonic. ("My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean" does the same thing, opening with a Major 6th spacing, but: 5 (below tonic) then up to (above tonic) 3-2-1, etc. I try training people to use that "Happy Trails" backing vocal riff ("bom-ba-dee-da" = 1-5-6-5), among other things. Or a blues boogie pattern 1-5-1-6-1 type thing. (Over time, I try training them to hear a "6" as a whole step above a "5," and a "b6" as 1/2 step above a 5.)
Pairing intervals to common melodies is helpful, but only in the most remedial sense of ear training. To me it is much more beneficial to learn the nuances of each of the scale degrees, chords, and chord progressions, and how they relate to the key. The way that I think of ear training is, it is like understanding language.

Writing English is just a collection of single characters(letters) used to form words, those words form sentences, and those sentences for paragraphs, then those paragraphs are form into larger works such as novels, plays, and essays. Those characters only have the meaning that we have placed on them. Everyone has a favorite phrase they say a lot, just like the Eagles made millions which the various permutations of G, C, and D. Learning to speak and comprehend music is the same as learning how to speak and comprehend language.

Single notes are formed into chords or melodies, those chords are formed into chord progressions, those chord progressions are combined with the melodies and formed into songs. Therefore it is important to learn the notes first, like learning your ABC’s. Then you learn how to play all of your scales and major/minor triads, which I would liken to learning one and two syllable words. You then learn more advanced chords, chord progressions, non diatonic chords/melodies, and modulation, which would be like the writing many of us did in junior high/high school. And finally you learn how to use melodies and progressions to invoke different feelings and images in the listener, or to convey difficult processes or operations, much like using mastered writing skills to write poetry, or an engineering textbook. At this level of writing, one is neither hindered by rules or their own ignorance.

I have taken the approach to ear training to hear things as grouped sounds. When I hear a major sixth it sounds like a simple word to me, I don’t have any word in particular, but it hits my brain that way. I hear the interval and my brain just says, “Major Sixth!” Chords like Cmaj9, D#m7b5 sound like words too, just more advanced vocabulary, and chords like C7#9b13 sound like words you would be tested on the SAT’s. Some may know what the jist of the word is, but only someone really experienced and knowledgeable can truly use that word appropriately, and in many different contexts.

Ear training in my opinion is the best thing any musician can study. For myself as a piano player, I can get impatient playing in a group with someone that needs me to tell them what the chords to a song are, I should just be able to play the chords and that musician goes, “Oh, okay. Got it.” There is nothing better than playing in a small group where you can just play and go wherever you want and everyone is right there with you, changing keys, chord progressions, whatever, all in real time without saying a word.
Old 2nd September 2009 | Show parent
  #23
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
I was lucky enough to be born with incredibly good relative pitch. However, having that without working at it actually set me back in some ways; as I always breezed through learning guitar songs by ear, I had an very hard time learning to read music. As such, I am a great improviser but playing songs note-for-note has never been easy. Relative pitch IS amazing for writing songs though, or playing along with other musicians. Of course, good rhythm skills are just as important, if not more so. I still have to work plenty on that

I would think perfect pitch would be wonderful for songwriters. One thing that always gets me when I have a song brewing in my head (or something I've been humming, I've always been a prodigious hummster) is finding that first note on the guitar or keyboard. Relative pitch just doesn't do that for me, so I'd love to see (hear?) if the Burge course or other courses can help with that.

What would be really cool is to have perfect frequency identification, not just for A-G but all across the audible spectrum. Now that, I'd think, would be great. I think "Mixing With Your Mind" has some exercises on that sort of thing which I've been meaning to try out one of these days.
Old 2nd September 2009 | Show parent
  #24
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
I've been singing professionally a very, very long time(since I was 11, when my voice changed from boy choir soprano to freakishly low bass), and I have never met anyone that "learned" perfect pitch.

its one of those inborn traits..some just dont know they have it..


Great *relative* pitch, however, can be learned.

those ads in guitar magazines remind me of those snake oil pimps doing "sing like a rock star" workshops or "rock singer 101" classes..

pure , unadulterated shlock.
Old 21st November 2016
  #25
Registered User
 
🎧 5 years
Mnemonics for Perfect Pitch

Hello.

I've been using Mnemonics for Perfect Pitch. It's an easy option.
Old 15th December 2016
  #26
Gear Guru
 
henryrobinett's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Interesting renewing this post after so many years. I'm glad you did a follow up. I've heard that colors, wavelengths play a part. I STILL think it's more important to understand the structure of music. It's more relevant.
Old 21st January 2020
  #27
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Mnemonics

I've been learning a lot with Mnemonics for Perfect Pitch.
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