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Can the audience sue because of a bad performance?
Old 23rd April 2003
  #1
Lives for gear
 
David R.'s Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Can the audience sue because of a bad performance?

Wow, I just saw this story. The singer of Creed was so f***ed up he could barely do his thing (which is not much, IMHO).

The implications of this are huge. This seems like a case where the audience should get their $$ back, but it sets a precident that is scary. Imagine doing a show and getting sued by someone who didn't like it. This opens the door for someone to abuse it.

What do you think?

Old 24th April 2003
  #2
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C.Lambrechts's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
http://www.joebornstein.com/

I simply LOVE this guy ... cranks me up every single time I visit the US

He has an add on TV : know it by heart

(imagine very deep firm male radio voice with a very firm tone in it)

'call 1-800-WIN-WIN-1 ... tell 'em you mean business ... tell 'em you got Joe Bornstein .... 1-800- WIN - WIN - 1' .... call NOW'

(extra emphasis on the 'win')
Old 24th April 2003
  #3
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
If the band had failed to show up for the concert, there would have been a refund.

It sounds like Stapp did fail to show up, at least mentally. Sounds like maybe it was worse for the audience than a no show. Hmmmm.

It's a grey area in my mind. But I think a judge or jury might tend to side with the plaintiff (i.e, the little people) in order to send a message to the "big time rock stars".

I think the fans will win it based on sympathy, whether or not that is good law, which I don't really know.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 24th April 2003
  #4
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heinz's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by BrianT
It's a grey area in my mind. But I think a judge or jury might tend to side with the plaintiff (i.e, the little people) in order to send a message to the "big time rock stars".
That arena (used to be the Rosemont Horizon I believe) is like over an 18,000 seat capacity house. So this wouldn't be like him passing out at a bar. I imagine it was full of kids who paid $50 or whatever to see this band. Not exactly the kind of gig you want to shoot up for. If you're sick, better to cancel or reschedule. Worse yet is what the show promoters in Chicago will take out of him if this suit has traction heh.
Old 24th April 2003
  #5
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I thought that the Creed guys were all straight edge. Who knew?
Old 24th April 2003
  #6
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doug_hti's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Jay Kahrs
I thought that the Creed guys were all straight edge. Who knew?
yeah....nice christian boys, right? ha

Well I think the issue of this case will be whether or not he was sick from a unforseable(sp) cause, etc. or if he intoxicated himself and created the issue.

The contracts and riders will have things that protect the band if he was just "ill".
I imagine that it's beyond that.
Old 24th April 2003
  #7
Gear Addict
 
mdbeh's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Well, what could be interesting is that, even if he was wasted, if he's subsequently gotten treatment for it (his "resting at home"), it could qualify legally as an illness. I've never heard of it applying to a band, but it's come up before in "normal" employment disputes.

(I'm not a lawyer, but I dated one for a while, and I remember hearing about something similar...)
Old 24th April 2003
  #8
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e-cue's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
If I showed up for a gig too drunk or "medicated" to engineer, I doubt I would be paid for it.
Old 24th April 2003
  #9
Gear Addict
 
mdbeh's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by e-cue
If I showed up for a gig too drunk or "medicated" to engineer, I doubt I would be paid for it.
That's true.

Still, if this actually goes to trial, you can be sure they'll pull out all the stops to keep from paying.
Old 24th April 2003
  #10
Gear Addict
 
cymatics's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Anyone who actually paid money to see Creed play, should be forbidden from breeding.

Please people, let's keep the gene pool clean.

- jon
Old 24th April 2003
  #11
member no 666
 
Fletcher's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
It would be fun to be able to sue for a bad performance... unfortunately, I don't think it would be a 'winable' event as the performer could counter that their performance was an "artistic statement"... even if they were too ****ed up to actually recall the event.
Old 24th April 2003
  #12
Gear Head
 
🎧 15 years
Well at least he made it to the show. I provided a rig for Trust Company a few weeks ago. 20 minutes after soundcheck (also 1 hour to doors) they cancelled because the singers voice wasn't doing so well. 2 hours later the band was at a small bar 75 feet or less from the club playing a blues set. I didn't think anything of it imagining it was just the band playing. That is until I found out the singer was singing with them. Then the next night they played a full show with Sevendust in Denver where the singer sang just fine. Leaves the promoter in a real bind. I still got paid, but the promoter loses all advertising etc... He could sue and get paid, but then would probably never get another show from that booking agent again so loses more in the end by winning.

Also several years ago I did a couple shows for US Bombs where I heard that Epitaph had it in the bands contract that the band would not get payed if Duane (their singer) got drunk or high before the show. Some how he made it through, but two hours after the show he came stumbling through and asked me where the way out of the club was. I pointed to the exit and he went the opposite way straight into a huge cleaning closet. I was there for at least another half hour and never saw him come out
Old 24th April 2003
  #13
Here for the gear
 
🎧 15 years
With all respect for the individual American, whoom I do not know ... where I come from, we find it pretty funny - and sometimes scarry - what kind of trials are going on in US .

Especially when someone gets money enough to cover average expenses for more or less the rest of her life (wasn't it a woman?), for getting burned on the cofee at MC-Donalds. Or that person earning heavy cash from microwaving her cat (poor thing - probably died quick) grudge.

It is just too far out of proportions .

It is like, the chain saw, where the manual tells the owner NOT TO STOP IT WITH HIS HANDS thumbsup.

This thing does exist, and no wonder the company must protect itself against wacky custommers .

Also I realy don't see the need for such a trial. Bad trip - someone used money and didn't get, what they expected .

They (probably) just got a bad experience - more or less the same thing happens, when someone gets a flat tire on his way to work .

And what if some couple mett that day, because they took the whole situation with good humor and just had fun of it - should they pay extra - as allways ... no .

In the end, it will come back to the band such an act rarely makes good advertisement .
Old 24th April 2003
  #14
Here for the gear
 
AlanThomas's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I'm not a lawyer but I do play one on TV...

Seriosly though, I think it would be a tough case and may even be thrown out of court as frivolous.

I think you'd have to sue the promoter, as usually the performers are contracted by them.

I have heard of promoters suing performers before though...
Old 24th April 2003
  #15
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David R.'s Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Two good points from Posterchild and Fletcher: Could Dylan have been sued for going electric? What about fans of the Beatles demanding compensation for being 'Spector-ized.' I've played gigs when I had a cold, could not sing very well (yea, yea. take your pot shots tutt ) was I at risk? Can Prince be sued for not playing Purple Rain?

Could Jimi have been sued for not playing stoned?

Artistic expression v. audience expectation.

A slipery slope I hope we don't have to go down.
Old 24th April 2003
  #16
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Ted Nightshade's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
"Could Jimi have been sued for not playing stoned?"

I would have been very disappointed to see McCartney last time around without the jurisprudential legal minimum of THC in his system- although I bet he played and sang better for it. He needed something to shake him out of his complacency.

A deadhead was approached legally by the post-Jerry Dead legal monkeys for selling a bunch of bootlegs on the internet. He replied that he ought to sue the Dead because Jerry was so out of it at so many shows he paid good money to see.
Old 24th April 2003
  #17
Jax
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
I think alot of people may be looking right past the reason why a group of only four fans might want to sue Creed for the singer's lackluster 'performance.' It's known that Creed are normally good little christian boys, straightedge and all that. Why is no one taking into account that a large part of their fanbase share the same religious/social beliefs? I think that's what's at stake here. These 4 straightedge/X-ian, pissed off fans see him onstage, all drunk and sloppy, and they feel it's an affront to their personal beliefs. Whether or not that has been stated by any of them, I don't know, and didn't read the article past the first paragraph... because it seems like yet another example that abuses and lowers the standard of the American legal system.

Which brings me back to what Immanuel said:

"With all respect for the individual American, whoom I do not know ... where I come from, we find it pretty funny - and sometimes scarry - what kind of trials are going on in US .

Especially when someone gets money enough to cover average expenses for more or less the rest of her life (wasn't it a woman?), for getting burned on the cofee at MC-Donalds. Or that person earning heavy cash from microwaving her cat (poor thing - probably died quick) .

It is just too far out of proportions."


This is another unfortunate side effect of the power of American media. Most people all around the world are paying attention to and watching stations owned and operated by USA juggernauts, namely CNN. It's no surprise then, that what they see is a great deal of news from America. Immanuel, do you really believe frivolous lawsuits and other abuses of the system only happen in America? I think you just don't see it as much in Europe, or wherever you're from, because there is much less of a media presence to tell you about it. Just hoping you don't come to any ill-founded conclusions about America in general. Although I agree that such things are right out of hand here, I don't believe America is an exceptional case.
Old 24th April 2003
  #18
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doug_hti's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
all that they will do is "settle" after Creed's attorneys have a little pissing match and show their stance. I (almost) guarantee you that Creed has better attorneys then the small group of people.
And again, if it goes to court, people will probably just get their money back, as legally, that's probably all that will hold up.
Old 24th April 2003
  #19
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David R.'s Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Jax, lots of articles on the web now about this, none of them mention the irony of good boy gone drunk. I'm sure it shocked some, Maude Flanders is rolling in her grave, but that is not the reason for calling in the sharks.
Old 24th April 2003
  #20
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heinz's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by David R.
Artistic expression v. audience expectation.... A slipery slope I hope we don't have to go down.
No doubt. But I do believe that the fans have an expectation that the live show will be somewhat aligned with the records in terms of performances. If you went to see the Stones and they played polka favorites all night.... well maybe that would be kind of cool actually.

If anything, Stapp should be slapped because he has a little boy, who will learn from his ****ty example.
Old 24th April 2003
  #21
Jax
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by David R.
Jax, lots of articles on the web now about this, none of them mention the irony of good boy gone drunk. I'm sure it shocked some, Maude Flanders is rolling in her grave, but that is not the reason for calling in the sharks.
Maybe not, but what I'm saying is that it sounds a little suspicious given their fanbase. They might not state personal convictions as the reason for filing suit, but I wouldn't doubt that it plays a role if not the role.

For instance, I bet if the singer of a band like Delirious (christian rock) decided to go onstage wasted and give a crap performance, at least four of their fans would suddenly find them morally unsound and use the singer's display as an excuse to exercise moral judgement upon him.
Old 24th April 2003
  #22
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by David R.
Could Dylan have been sued for going electric? ..
According to a friend of mine, the only ones objecting to Dylan going electric were a couple folk music icons that were backstage. The audience only began booing when Dylan started to leave the stage early after hearing the ruckus. The publicity around this incident may have been Albert Grossman's most masterful use of spin in his career.
Old 24th April 2003
  #23
Moderator emeritus
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Immanuel

Especially when someone gets money enough to cover average expenses for more or less the rest of her life (wasn't it a woman?), for getting burned on the cofee at MC-Donalds.
Just to show that I'm not afraid to go off topic, I have a guitar player friend who is a private investigator. He has read the transcripts of the McDonalds case (for a client) and he tells me that the general consensus in the legal field is that the award wasn't so much FOR the woman who sued as it was AGAINST the attorneys for McDonalds, who apparently acted like complete idiots in court. The actual damages weren't that much (though it was more than the woman asked) - the punitive damages against McDonalds were astronomically high (and, by the way, that award was substantially reduced on appeal).
Old 24th April 2003
  #24
Lives for gear
 
Meriphew's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I'm surprised that someone hasn't sued Creed for pain and suffering. I know every time I'm subjected to one of their songs I'm suffering.
Old 24th April 2003
  #25
Jax
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Amen! heh
Old 25th April 2003
  #26
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e-cue's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
When I first heard about this (on some bs tabloid tv show), it sounded like the guy that started this whole thing was a lawyer himself. No doubt, trying to make a name for himself.
Old 25th April 2003
  #27
Lives for gear
 
heinz's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by posterchild
This is off-topic, but that's a great avatar, heinz!
Thanks brother, Best Puppet Band Ever. I of course noticed your muppet image immediately. Henson was one of the greats.
Old 25th April 2003
  #28
Lives for gear
 
pounce's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
i would happily have went with the statler and waldorf avatar if i had thought of it in time. now, i'm happy enough with sorority slut barbie.

however, statler and waldorf in the audience of the creed show would be good.

"this is my favorite part of the show"

"oh yeah, what's that"

"the end"
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