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John McLaughlin Live Setup: Cheap but effective
Old 12th May 2010 | Show parent
  #61
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett ➑️
And I would add to that that the emotional performance abilities of the player is part and parcel of the above. But I don't see the emotional abilities of the player as NECESSARILY or primarily falling in the domain of the amplification. I think it lies in the fingers, heart, soul and mind of the player. The sound that moves me mostly, comes directly from the player, whether it's being played on an old beat up no name acoustic guitar or with a Dumble on a suped up Strat.
I completely undertand what you mean, the feeling come from the player and his fingers and spirit. BUT for me and I know LOTS of other folks, sound within itself is just as powerful of a force and I feel it's a mistake to think it's second place.

Think about Pat Metheny for example, Metheny would be and IS incredible with just an acoustic guitar. But when he gets that tone from his synthisizer effects pedal like his sounds on "Secret Story" and other similiar type albulms, it's THE SOUND that enchants people, that's what sends the chill up your spine (yes, easy target opportunity for PM haters here). But a child could have bumped into the guitar and it would sound beautiful, only becasue of it's sound.

Also, without sound shaping tools, yes Jimi Hendrix would still be an amazing spirit (he's my FAV!) but it was the tone of the fuzz, the phaser, the distortion, and his WAH "sound" that filled people's soul with joy, not so much JUST notes. It was everything.

Sonic youth? Those Fender Jaguars with fuzz boxes, or just open ringing chords.......it wouldn't be the same on an acoustic .

So to me , yes the notes are oviously what constructs the song, but sound is just as important.

Play a 6 note melody on an acoustic guitar, and then play it on a childs $5 toy vibrophone set.........guess which one will make people smile ear to ear and which one will make people wait for you to impress them?

Sound and tone IS everything. The notes help to.heh
Old 12th May 2010 | Show parent
  #62
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🎧 15 years
He needs to get a Axe FX Ultra. He's on the right track, just the wrong road.
Old 23rd August 2010 | Show parent
  #63
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🎧 15 years
I'd love to see him playing a steel-string with Remember Shakti as he did with the original Shakti. He could manhandle a steel-string like no one else.

His recent electric tones are as lame as his Remember Shakti tone. No dynamics and no life. I'd love to see him play electrically with a classic electric guitar plugged into an amp, no processing, no wimpy tone.
Old 24th August 2010 | Show parent
  #64
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2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
you can play on the crappiest gear and still sound musical as long as you have a great touch, an impeccable timing and great dynamics.
Old 24th August 2010 | Show parent
  #65
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Musiclab's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett ➑️
I really don't think music IS sound. To me music is a concept that uses sound. For me music, the western music I love primarily and try to excel at, uses twelve notes, with some variation, and time/rhythms, various subdivisions of those rhythms, and a harmonic system based on variation of the 12 notes, plus the aesthetic creativity, mainly, of an artist(s).

For me, you could simply write the notes down and I could like them or not. They could be performed in various ways, by various musicians, under various conditions, with various instruments and sound systems, and I would like it probably just about the same, depending primarily on the performance skills of the artist, as opposed to the performance of an amplifier.

But people are different. As I said I'm not arguing that one way is better ot worse than another. I'm just pointing out a distinction.
If that's the case why do composers use different instruments in their compositions, why is a trumpet the right color for a part or a guitar, why do you sometimes want a clean sound and sometimes want a sound with some hair on it? Sure you can look at the notes and say nice line but sound is used to help convey emotion.
Old 24th August 2010 | Show parent
  #66
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Musiclab ➑️
If that's the case why do composers use different instruments in their compositions, why is a trumpet the right color for a part or a guitar, why do you sometimes want a clean sound and sometimes want a sound with some hair on it? Sure you can look at the notes and say nice line but sound is used to help convey emotion.
Well that is "orchestration." Many notes can be interchanged. One moment the trumpet can take the melody then the next 8 bars it passes to the violins, or the guitar. Sound IS used to convey timbre. Mostly the emotion is conveyed by the player and the dynamics, and might best be exemplified by a certain instrument. But the music is what lies underneath.

I recently fired my sax player, who was playing a lot of my melodies. He didn't have to. They work just as well being played by myself, or a piano player, or any instrument.
Old 24th August 2010 | Show parent
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett ➑️
Well that is "orchestration." Many notes can be interchanged. One moment the trumpet can take the melody then the next 8 bars it passes to the violins, or the guitar. Sound IS used to convey timbre. Mostly the emotion is conveyed by the player and the dynamics, and might best be exemplified by a certain instrument. But the music is what lies underneath.

I recently fired my sax player, who was playing a lot of my melodies. He didn't have to. They work just as well being played by myself, or a piano player, or any instrument.
MY point Henry is it's ALL part of music, orchestration, emotion, the melody or solo and the sound.
Old 24th August 2010 | Show parent
  #68
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🎧 15 years
Yes Lou. I've never argued against that point. Except that MUSIC is something else, in addition to the sound, orchestration and even emotion. It's both very specific and very open and general. But it is NOT sound only. Not even close.
Old 25th August 2010 | Show parent
  #69
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🎧 10 years
When John played with Miles he used a Fender Mustang. It almost makes me want to get one :-). Sometimes I wish he would go back to that. His subsequent speed stuff leaves me cold.
Old 25th August 2010
  #70
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🎧 15 years
John McLaughlin Live Setup: Cheap but effective

Well my favorite Mahavishnu was the first, Inner Mounting Flame. It was so new and so fresh and he played passionately. But I also loved his playing on Miroslav Vitous' Mountain in the Clouds. And Shakti.

For me it's not his speed that leaves me cold. It's his coldness. His sense if timing is funny to me and his articulation is stiff. Too much picking and not enough legato. Too much sameness in his phrasing and his lines are too scale like.

But still he's a great player who has done more for advancing guitar than almost anybody.
Old 25th August 2010 | Show parent
  #71
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett ➑️

For me it's not his speed that leaves me cold. It's his coldness. His sense if timing is funny to me and his articulation is stiff. Too much picking and not enough legato. Too much sameness in his phrasing and his lines are too scale like.
Right. The Miles/Tony Williams stuff isn't like that at all. I wish he'd give up on all those exercises. I think it makes his playing mechanical and he'd be better off without it. BUT, he did get famous doing the speed thing (I think he changed the whole course of rock guitar, for better or worse) so I guess he'd be silly to change it.

By the way, I think he played that Mustang largely because he was poor. He had to rent that Les Paul Custom for Inner Mounting Flame. Shows how little Miles paid.

The compositions on Inner Mounting Flame are the best ever outside of classical music. So original and effective with the power of simplicity. Check out the Radio String Quartet Vienna doing this stuff. A better direction than tone row.

Ever notice how much that solo on Birds of Fire sounds like Jimmy Page? JP did the doubleneck thing first, I'm almost certain.

To his credit John's still making some of the best fusion going. Love that stuff with drummer Mark Mondesir.
Old 25th August 2010 | Show parent
  #72
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BasHermus's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Cheap?????

What I don't get from the original post is that this set up is cheap...

That is at least $1800 of stuff, just to get a sound that is inferior to many (way cheaper) tube amps.
And even a tube amp is less likely to crash than a MacBook on the road..
Old 25th August 2010 | Show parent
  #73
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Batchainpuller78's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad John ➑️
I guess there would be a huge tonal difference between a Blistering Marshal amp on "11" vs a Roland cube!

"Jack Johnson" is another raw favorite, as well as "Live Evil!"
yeah there you go, I love him in the Miles period, Silent Way, Jack Johnson, On the corner, Big fun, Bitches Brew etc...
I also dug the Trio mentioned earlier with Trilok Gurtu & Kai Eckhardt
not so much thrilled by his other solo stuff or other bands, Same with Zappa, so many great musicians under his wing doing great stuff but I mean George Duke or Ed Mann or Vai solo is just yucky in my opinion.

It baffles me that Mclaughlin would use a software setup although I'm quite sure no matter what he plays on it will be fantastic to a certain degree, it's not about the gear in the end is it? heh
Old 25th August 2010 | Show parent
  #74
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frisbieinstein ➑️

Ever notice how much that solo on Birds of Fire sounds like Jimmy Page? JP did the doubleneck thing first, I'm almost certain.
Jimmy Page was JM's student for a while, or he gave him a few lessons I believe...
Old 25th August 2010
  #75
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henryrobinett's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
John McLaughlin Live Setup: Cheap but effective

No. I never thought then nor now that his Birds of Fire solo sounds anything like Page.
Old 25th August 2010
  #76
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henryrobinett's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
John McLaughlin Live Setup: Cheap but effective

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frisbieinstein



By the way, I think he played that Mustang largely because he was poor. He had to rent that Les Paul Custom for Inner Mounting Flame. Shows how little Miles paid.
McLaughlin was never in Miles' touring band. He had an open invitation to come and sit in, but he never toured, to the best if my knowledge. He basically just recorded. That record Live/Evil was him sitting in.
Old 25th August 2010 | Show parent
  #77
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🎧 15 years
all i know is that mclaughlin sounded so great on those 70s Miles records using a raw tube set up. It sounded dangerous. When he would bend a note it would snarl and whine.

....and he sounds much more blah, computerized, and scale oriented now.

he was and is a masterful player.....but his tone was much more exciting in the 70s.
Old 25th August 2010 | Show parent
  #78
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Musiclab's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett ➑️
Yes Lou. I've never argued against that point. Except that MUSIC is something else, in addition to the sound, orchestration and even emotion. It's both very specific and very open and general. But it is NOT sound only. Not even close.
of course not, that being said, I still hate JM's guitar sound thru a computer rig
Old 25th August 2010 | Show parent
  #79
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Musiclab's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frisbieinstein ➑️

Ever notice how much that solo on Birds of Fire sounds like Jimmy Page? JP did the doubleneck thing first, I'm almost certain.
.
absolutely not, and I like Jimmy Page on record
Old 3rd November 2010 | Show parent
  #80
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🎧 10 years
not sure

Not sure, But I believe Jimmy did do the Doubleneck thing first... But, I'll have to go and see if I can find more information on it... Info on things like that are sketchy at best...
Old 6th July 2013 | Show parent
  #81
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett ➑️
Well my favorite Mahavishnu was the first, Inner Mounting Flame. It was so new and so fresh and he played passionately. But I also loved his playing on Miroslav Vitous' Mountain in the Clouds. And Shakti.

For me it's not his speed that leaves me cold. It's his coldness. His sense if timing is funny to me and his articulation is stiff. Too much picking and not enough legato. Too much sameness in his phrasing and his lines are too scale like.

But still he's a great player who has done more for advancing guitar than almost anybody.
Henry, have you downloaded all of the sound board recordings and listen to them? Just curious. Even during his MO days, his style changed drastically.

The thing about McLaughlin's scales is that they don't sound cliche like these metal players are doing. Those guys get boring, same goes for about 99.9% of the "fusion" players. I can honestly say that most fusion players don't know jazz as well as McLaughlin, certainly don't understand classical or classical indian as well as McLaughlin, and even in a way the depth of knowledge in blues as McLaughlin. He can rip blues that's intense, but he doesn't do the traditional, cliche blues playing, but he can if he wants to. He understands improvisation more so than most players these days, and he got his training with Miles and not many guitar players could impress Miles like McLaughlin.

I don't hear scale playing in McLaughlin as much as you seem to indicate. A lot of times, he throws in subtle pitch bends and other abstract melody lines. The stuff McLaughlin is putting out since the Trio w/Trilok isn't floating my boat as much as his early years. I saw him with Remember Shakti and he was playing his Godin through a MacBook at the time, which is what he was into. I like him just plugging into a real amp like a Mesa or Marshall, cranking it up and going for it, or dragging out one of his custom acoustic guitars. That's what I prefer, but listening to him rarely get tiring. his music is pretty fresh even after 40 years and still puts just about every other "fusion" guitar player to shame. He's in a class by himself.
Old 8th July 2013
  #82
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by drblank ➑️
He's in a class by himself.
He certainly is...

McLaughlin has been my 'hero' since I was a teenager. Not because of his flawless technique, which as-you-say transcends the predictable scale shredding of one dimensional modern guitarists.

McLaughlin has developed a musical language (just like so many of the greatest musicians) that communicates profoundly on many levels.

He is able to articulate emotions, moods and musical worlds that I did not know existed - his speed is merely one aspect of his ability and it serves a purpose when needed.

Equally eloquent on acoustic or electric, his initial appearance on the music scene was powerfully disruptive. The dude is God.

I could go on and on!...
Old 8th July 2013 | Show parent
  #83
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
it's a bit hard to listen to a great fusion guitarist through roland cube,
dry no fx, crappy solid state tone. . .

bop jazz players have been doing this for years.

the antithesis of great tone / blowin great world class jazz.

its zero Gearslutness.

killer musician, killer chops, killer solos.
not killer tone.


i still go to see any jazz heavy through a cube any day of the week.
it offends my tone bone.
Old 8th July 2013
  #84
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🎧 10 years
For those that don't know.

For the better (subjective) quality Soundboard recordings, there is Rock memorabilia, Concert Posters, Concert Photos, Rock T-shirts, Apparel and more. and for a ton of other soundboard recordings, go to :: JazzFusion.TV - official website ::. HUGE Audio collection that will keep you busy for decades.

I personally prefer (probably because I'm used to it) his early work up through his Trilok Gurtu days. Since that, I like him, but I don't listen to as much. I know his tone has changed drastically and going through a laptop, roland cube or a pre amp stomp box is not as COOL as three Marshall Stacks or a couple of Boogies, but The guy's 70. What are you and everyone else going to do when they hit 60+. Actually, he doesn't use the Roland Cube anymore. He's always had pretty simple rigs, which I liked, usually used just a volume pedal and phase shifter at most in the beginning. with the exception of the Guitar Synth rigs which was just used very sparingly. I'm not much of a fan of the guys that have a zillion pedals that take what could be a great tone and then have it with so much stuff in the chain that it sounds compressed and fake even though they have huge stacks cranked.

I've already thrown the suggestion years ago for John to check out the Axe-Fx Ultra, but I think it might be more than what he wants to learn.. For younger folks, it's a lot easier to jam our brains with lots of information, but the guy is 70. We need to just appreciate what he's done and what he's still doing because most of the best players don't last as long.

Enjoy his, and other's, stuff on the the two sites mentioned above.
Old 8th July 2013 | Show parent
  #85
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] ➑️
it's a bit hard to listen to a great fusion guitarist through roland cube,
dry no fx, crappy solid state tone. . .

bop jazz players have been doing this for years.

the antithesis of great tone / blowin great world class jazz.

its zero Gearslutness.

killer musician, killer chops, killer solos.
not killer tone.


i still go to see any jazz heavy through a cube any day of the week.
it offends my tone bone.

Go check out Miles Out from Inner Worlds. He used a lot of stuff on that song and album when he was playing around with his 360 Systems connected to 6 mini-moogs, octave box, ring modulator, freq shifter, or whatever they called it back then. I never quite understood the frequency shifter since I've never been up close with one. Is that something that's going to make a comeback? Anyone know more about that thing and what it really is?
Old 8th July 2013 | Show parent
  #86
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Musiclab ➑️
absolutely not, and I like Jimmy Page on record
You do realize that they both started using the Gibson double neck in the same year and McLaughlin was Jimmy Page's guitar teacher when Jimmy Page was a teenager.
Old 8th July 2013 | Show parent
  #87
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by shwn ➑️
Not sure, But I believe Jimmy did do the Doubleneck thing first... But, I'll have to go and see if I can find more information on it... Info on things like that are sketchy at best...
They both started using them on record in the same year, just not sure which one bought theirs first. either way, McLaughlin used the 12 string a lot more in his entire set and was certainly much better at it. I think Page's use was a little more of a showy gimmick in comparison. Some of the material John wrote could only really work with a 12 string which John mentioned in an interview a while back.

I still like Jimmy Page, but I was just a HUGE McLaughlin fan during those years and Led Zeppelin was just another band that had more commercial rock hits to me.
Old 8th July 2013 | Show parent
  #88
Gear Guru
 
henryrobinett's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] ➑️
it's a bit hard to listen to a great fusion guitarist through roland cube,
dry no fx, crappy solid state tone. . .

bop jazz players have been doing this for years.

the antithesis of great tone / blowin great world class jazz.

its zero Gearslutness.

killer musician, killer chops, killer solos.
not killer tone.


i still go to see any jazz heavy through a cube any day of the week.
it offends my tone bone.
I hear you. There a few reasons for this, as far as my experience and theory tells me. Number one, all the time and effort goes into the NOTES. But also most jazz guitarists can't afford a lot of expensive gear. A lot of these guys live in NYC and need small gear they can take on the subway or in a cab. #2 - most jazz clubs are very small. No way the club could handle a lot of volume. #3 most jazz groups are small and have very limited sound reinforcement. They probably have an acoustic bass, horn players, acoustic pianist or are set up for that type of group. Having a guitarist, even if it is your band, who play louder than everything else, or at a volume that people are mostly used to and expecting, is grounds for losing your gig. Guys might not work with you again!

Jazz clubs are about the music, but like every other club are MAINLY about selling drinks. If you play too loud drinks orders can't be heard. Owners get upset.

None of this applies to McLaughlin, but it's deep set n the jazz culture. Convenience and consideration rule the day. Remember jazz is still not a guitar-centric music.
Old 8th July 2013 | Show parent
  #89
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett ➑️
I hear you. There a few reasons for this, as far as my experience and theory tells me. Number one, all the time and effort goes into the NOTES. But also most jazz guitarists can't afford a lot of expensive gear. A lot of these guys live in NYC and need small gear they can take on the subway or in a cab. #2 - most jazz clubs are very small. No way the club could handle a lot of volume. #3 most jazz groups are small and have very limited sound reinforcement. They probably have an acoustic bass, horn players, acoustic pianist or are set up for that type of group. Having a guitarist, even if it is your band, who play louder than everything else, or at a volume that people are mostly used to and expecting, is grounds for losing your gig. Guys might not work with you again!

Jazz clubs are about the music, but like every other club are MAINLY about selling drinks. If you play too loud drinks orders can't be heard. Owners get upset.

None of this applies to McLaughlin, but it's deep set n the jazz culture. Convenience and consideration rule the day. Remember jazz is still not a guitar-centric music.
Yeah, I know, but John has a HUGE jazz background, but he also first started studying classical music from his mother on other instruments and his first exposure to the guitar was with blues and then later jazz, flamenco, classical indian, R&B, funk, etc., etc. and he knows them all and can blend them however he wants and takes it to a level where it's beyond what others have done with so much intensity. The true masters have that intensity, which always had.

There was something that Branford Marsalis would discuss and how he was STILL trying to get the same intensity as the others before him. That's what he discussed in an interview, INTENSITY, INTENSITY, INTENSITY, and he not talking necessarily playing loud and fast, it's hardest when playing soft and slow. I've always enjoyed McLaughlin's intensity. He did go through his gear days cranking it up with Marshalls. It just brought out intensity for that style of music.. one really well executed sustained note can speak volumes and he did that a lot during the early mid 70's on the live recordings. he can't do that with the set up he has now unless he cranks it up and gets that raw amp sustain. Sometimes you have to go for it. Sanctuary live concerts was one of my favorites for that sustained notes. Plus the rhythm is so jazz, but not at the same time. Dynamics was also essential, he could take it to two extremes.

Have you ever seen the original MO? WHen I saw them I was only 13 and it was by far the most intense 2 hours and it just set a bar so high, everyone seemed to sound like small bar band in comparison. I just couldn't talk for 3 days and he keeps on blowing my mind at what he comes up with. I would rather sit down and listen to him practice on his own than most other players. He just comes up with beautiful, strange, original and different melodies, chord changes, rhythm, and dynamics that takes a few times to fully understand where he's coming from.

It also helps a LOT to study classical indian music or instrument as it helps us Westerners who are used to strange time signatures, rhythm cycles, microtonal pitch bends, etc.

When I saw him the first time, they opened up with Trilogy which is another long time favorite. He played the intro for a VERY long time until the band came in and he was using the volume pedal and that opening section is just so uniquely different. That and the trading solos with the piano is just the best part. Get the various soundboard recordings as there are very long versions of the albums only longer, throwing different melodies, played faster, slower, and really taking the songs beyond comprehension at times.
Old 9th July 2013 | Show parent
  #90
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett ➑️
I hear you. There a few reasons for this, as far as my experience and theory tells me. Number one, all the time and effort goes into the NOTES. But also most jazz guitarists can't afford a lot of expensive gear. A lot of these guys live in NYC and need small gear they can take on the subway or in a cab. #2 - most jazz clubs are very small. No way the club could handle a lot of volume. #3 most jazz groups are small and have very limited sound reinforcement. They probably have an acoustic bass, horn players, acoustic pianist or are set up for that type of group. Having a guitarist, even if it is your band, who play louder than everything else, or at a volume that people are mostly used to and expecting, is grounds for losing your gig. Guys might not work with you again!

Jazz clubs are about the music, but like every other club are MAINLY about selling drinks. If you play too loud drinks orders can't be heard. Owners get upset.

None of this applies to McLaughlin, but it's deep set n the jazz culture. Convenience and consideration rule the day. Remember jazz is still not a guitar-centric music.

Well, don't worry about what the club owner wants, if you can play what you feel at the volume that you need to in order for it to come out right, then go for it, and maybe you need to find the right club for that style music. I don't like clubs telling me its too loud, they are paying enough money to do that. I like to play where I can lose myself and not have to think about what I doing as I like to FEEL what's being done. Some music needs that volume otherwise it comes out to much like a lounge act and that's not "bringing it" to the audience.. Sometimes you have to have an attitude about what you're doing. I've heard lounge bands playing and that's a turn off. Because it tells me they are bored and just playing something without putting any heart into it. Some bands can't play in lounge clubs, some can. I'm not saying to just walk in and crank up a Marshall stack to 11, there has to be a certain degree of respect for the volume level. I've played with bass players that were too loud and asked them to turn down and they wouldn't, so I had to play louder to hear myself and then they turned up even more so they be an A$$ about it, and then I stopped playing with them. There has to be at least a certain amount of thought as to what's COMPLETELY out of line and what isn't.

it should be about the music and not the drinks. If someone can pack the place and bring the crowd to its knees, that's what I'd rather do and ignore the club owner and go after better gigs that can pay you more. Clubs never paid me enough money to listen to them tell me how to play. I like playing so that I can express what I need to express in the manner where I can lose myself, and if it gets intense then so be it. If the others can't hang, then that's THEIR problem. I like to hear musicians play with intensity, if they don't, the drinks won't keep me there because I don't go to clubs to drink. I'll go to hear someone blow me away. At least that's what I want. But they just have to know how to play loud that's tolerable without being annoying.

One thing I know about night clubs is that the more one drinks, the more they talk louder because they can't hear as well, so don't worry about cranking it up a little. If the club owner complains, just tell them to have a drink and enjoy.

I find most club owners don't spend the money on a decent sound system so it's not the volume that's annoying, it's the PA's system that's distorted and I think that's what is the most annoying.

Henry, you live in Sacramento, right? Try to tell the owner of the Torch Club to get a better PA system because that place is the Torcher Club. It horrible to listen to music there and to play there because of the PA system. It's probably got plenty of blown drivers, etc. It's horrible. Same goes with 90% of the clubs.


Here's a test for volume in a small club with no monitors to speak of. When the drummer can hit the drums as hard as possible without mikes, that's the loudest they need to get at the most intense part. But drummers can't play that hard all night long unless they are someone like a Billy Cobham, or some hard hitting metal drummer. A drummer playing a 18 inch bass drum can't be played that loud without miking it. I've seen Elvin Jones play and he kicked the 18inch bass drum where it constantly tan away from him and he had to literally nail a block of wood in front of it to the stage. I don't think someone is going to tell Elvin Jones how loud to play and he was actually pretty hard hitting player at times, especially with a big band. Nothing worse than hearing a big band and the drummer can't play hard enough to drive the horn section as they have to have those stabs come across properly.

I would only use mikes in a small club for getting the right fullness instead of for volume purposes. I actually like it when a guitar is miked just for fullness instead of hearing the amp cranked. Some guys can get that sustain without cranking it up. Back in the 70's monitor systems weren't that good in large concert venues. But things are different nowadays.

At least that's the best I can explain things without showing in person. And everyone does have to play together so it sounds right.
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