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advice on going Logic/Symphony or PTHD
Old 10th February 2009
  #1
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
advice on going Logic/Symphony or PTHD

I've been reading through threads, researching mfg sites etc. for quite a few months trying to decide if I should go with a Logic/Apogee/Sympony/Euphonix system or put out the extra dollars for an HD system. My studio is currently set up with an Akai DPS24 that we track on, and typically we'll take the waves out of the Akai and into PTLE. Computer wise, we have a Mac Pro with two 2.66GHZ dual core processors and PCIe expansion. Our current PT interface is an Mbox with USB connection so tracking directly into protools is really limited, the latency of the MBox is unbearable, not to mention what seems to be pretty weak AD & DA

Here's the thing, the darn Akai is a pretty cable machine, it has darn good AD and DA (sure beats the Mbox anyway), 24 tracks, 12 motorized faders, a master fader, zero latency, and it will track 24 track simultaneously. We've learned that we can't live without ptich correction and protools flexibility for post production so that is why we take stuff out to PTLE. It is kind of a hassle going back and forth, like lets say we did some pitch correction or comping of a lead vocal in PTLE and then wanted to track BV's, well we're stuck taking that stuff back into the Akai, to track again. The nice thing about the Akai is you can run a session pretty nicely, it's got monitor management, decent sounding effects that are plenty good for tracking. You can move around quickly, arm tracks, use the fader for headphone mix etc......So we are trying to not go backwards from this functionality, but would like to eliminate the back and forth.....the only other gear we currently have is a presonus LT that is ADATed into the akai, the pre's seem decent, but I think the AD is kind of weak.....that along with an ART PRO VLA compressor

I spent two years building my basement studio, and it has a 14x17 control room fully traped and treated, along with a live room, and three iso booths, nice sight lines, great isolation between rooms etc....so based on what we have room wise, we are pretty light on gear

So here the two systems I'm looking at

Logic/Apogee/symphony/euphonix

Apogee AD-16X $2895.00
AD-16X symphony card $219.00
Apogee symphony card $719.00
Apogee mini DAC $750.00
logic $499.00
Euphonic mix $850.00
Euphonix control $1150.00
misc cables/snakes $250.00

TOTAL $7,333.00

PTHD1/control 24

HD-1 PCIe (ebay seller) $4750.00
apogee AD-16X $2895.00
apogee HD card $540.00
apogee mini DAC $750.00
used Control 24 $3000.00
misc cables & snakes $250.00

TOTAL $12,185.00



OK so it's a pretty big jump from the Logic rig to the HD rig even though we're buying it off ebay. We sure would love to have the compatibility with the rest of the PTHD world and it would be nice to stay with PT since we have some experience with LE. We've been doing some work for hire and feel like HD could get us some work that we'd miss with the logic rig... is it enough to justify the $5K difference....hard to say.....

the stock compressors, EQ and effects in Logic seem to be a cut above what comes with PTHD any thoughts on that? we are used to the RTAS stuff that came with LE, and they seem weak... is the stock HD stuff better sounding? how does it compare to the stock logic stuff?

the control 24 has 16 pre's & 24 faders but from what I'm hearing, the pre's are barely usable, any thoughts on if they would be good for more than scratch tracks?

I've looked at the hotrodded LE systems, 003's with BLA mods, better AD DA etc. and they seem workable from a post production standpoint. But there really isn't any way around the latency during tracking. Also I'd really like to have at least 12 faders, and the PTLE surfaces are all eight and not really set up for expansion... not sure why PT doesn't come up with something more along the lines of the expandable euphonix stuff....

It kind of a struggle to spend this kind of dollars and asside from the apogee AD and DA not really get anyting that makes stuff sound better . I'm also struggling with forking out the extra dollars for HD, when it seems like something new should be coming out real soon to respond to the symphony system.. I wonder how many HD systems are being sold right now when it is getting pretty near the end of it's lifecycle? or should I be looking at the more capable PCIe cards as something substantially new that will be around for awhile? I sure don't want to follow in the footsteps of the folks that bought a mix plus system in the last few months! OK, sorry for the long meandering post... and thanks for thoughts on any of the above

Warren
Old 10th February 2009
  #2
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larry b's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Hey i'm a PT TDM guy through and through, but i really like the looks of that list of Logic/Symphony gear. Makin me jealous

Welcome to Gearslutz, btw!
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #3
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RARStudios's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
from what i hear, the apogee setup will work wonders on your mac...

thats just what i "hear" tho...

if you want mainstream, use pro tools.

if you want uniqueness, get logic...


i PREFER logic over pt...

thats just me though, ask others, maybe PT, maybe nuendo, maybe sonar...etc etc etc...


find what you like, but on your system, the logic integration w/ apogee is sick "apparently"

Thats what i am buying when i get the cash =)

-evan
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #4
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H-Rezz's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Both systems are great , most P.Tools users i know also use and love Logic , and most Logic users have a copy of P.Tools for compatibilty ......

1) Just depends if your studio has to be compatible with other studio's or not , in this case having P.Tools le about would work in conjunction with a Logic/Symphony rig ....

2) Do the people in your area expect you to use P.tools for business , if you feel this is this is a selling point for your studio then maybe all P.Tools might be the way .....

Either way both are stable and nice sounding systems ....... good luck
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #5
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
thanks Larry!

been mulling over this decision for awhile......the difference between symphony and HD would buy some nice outboard gear we could sure use....on the other hand its hard to argue with having 24 faders and a system so many folks are familiar with

this has been argued back and forth in numerous threads.... I haven't seem much recently though, and the price differential has come down some with the old style control 24's dropping from 5K to around 3K.

If Digi came out with a nice 16 fader control surface that sold for about 4K and some kind a version of LE that didn't have tracking latency, how much would the value of HD plummet????
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #6
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RARStudios's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Yeah, but you can buy all that stuff without using name brand Protools gear when you get logic.... =)

Is Pro tools the best!?!?!?

=) who knows....

its more like the Gasoline of audio engineering....everyone thinks they need it when theres soo many other things out there that can work..




PS....you can always add ah nice mic for that price....or Ah few nice mics =)

orrrr some other nice gear...=)

or a nice mixer...

-evan
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #7
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larry b's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I say save yourself the 5 grand, and look at a couple of channels of mic preamp and compression for tracking, plus you can insert the comps for mixing....

Maybe add another 8 channels of Euphonix controller if you want more faders.

Maybe a Great River or a couple of API pres in a lunchbox, and a pair of Distressors or a Distressor and an 1176. You can go a long way with just that.
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #8
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by H-Rezz ➡️
Both systems are great , most P.Tools users i know also use and love Logic , and most Logic users have a copy of P.Tools for compatibilty ......

1) Just depends if your studio has to be compatible with other studio's or not , in this case having P.Tools le about would work in conjunction with a Logic/Symphony rig ....

2) Do the people in your area expect you to use P.tools for business , if you feel this is this is a selling point for your studio then maybe all P.Tools might be the way .....

Either way both are stable and nice sounding systems ....... good luck


no question, those two points sum it up well....we can get a workable level of compatibility with LE that we already have.... and then it comes down a business decision....will HD get us more business??? I suspect it would
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #9
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larry b's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
HD would get you more business but so would having some hot mic pres and comps, along with great mics....

Neither will get you business compared to talent and skill with your gear, ANY gear.

I know a guy here in michigan that is still recording to PT 5.3 Mix+ in Mac OS9, with a very basic studio setup and he gets lots of work. He's very talented.

Remember, it's not about the size, it's all about how you use it.
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #10
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RARStudios's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
i dont think either will get you more business...

Being a creative producer/engineer will....=)
Bands dont really care as long its good....but somebands are biased because they are informed by ******s who "claim" one is better

-evan
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #11
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
I have used logic for a few years, since version 5. I have worked professionally on both Logic 7 and 8. For a little over a year I have been working professionally with PTHD7. (Just started futzing around with PTLE8). Anyway, my recommendation is to go the Pro Tools route. I am a heavy duty logic lover, but go PTHD, is my opinion.
The major difference for me here is AUDIO EDITING.
for real.
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #12
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H-Rezz's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by WJurgens ➡️
no question, those two points sum it up well....we can get a workable level of compatibility with LE that we already have.... and then it comes down a business decision....will HD get us more business??? I suspect it would
You gotta be carefully in what you mean by , you suspect having P.Tools will get you work .....

Some points to consider ......

1) Does your work come from people who like what you do ? If the answer is Yes, go Logic and buy some extra gear with you 5k saving , because your platform is not the deciding factor ....

2) If people are coming because you have a P.Tools system , get P.Tools but remember even in this case without the accompanying treated room,mics and outboard P.Tools alone will not sell it as a commercial room .. if this has been taken care of and you want to build a commercial suite around P.Tools then it's viable ....

As a producer i book out the room first , meaning a good sounding room, then mics and outboard second ! Platform is a distant 3rd ..... especially because i take my files away with me . like a lot of producers do ......
Old 11th February 2009 | Show parent
  #13
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by H-Rezz ➡️
You gotta be carefully in what you mean by , you suspect having P.Tools will get you work .....

Some points to consider ......

1) Does your work come from people who like what you do ? If the answer is Yes, go Logic and buy some extra gear with you 5k saving , because your platform is not the deciding factor ....

2) If people are coming because you have a P.Tools system , get P.Tools but remember even in this case without the accompanying treated room,mics and outboard P.Tools alone will not sell it as a commercial room .. if this has been taken care of and you want to build a commercial suite around P.Tools then it's viable ....

As a producer i book out the room first , meaning a good sounding room, then mics and outboard second ! Platform is a distant 3rd ..... especially because i take my files away with me . like a lot of producers do ......

I think the most compelling reason i can think of to go the PTHD route is I'm trying to outfit the studio so I can bring in outside help to mix or track..(I have a day job, so there is limit to how much time I can spend working) my preception is that it would be really easy to find folks who are familiar with the old style control 24 and PTHD....shoot, we've probably got four studios here in KC that have control 24 PTHD set-ups and The local Jr college is putting in four PTHD/C24 systems. conversely, my assumption is that there would be lots less folks that would be able to hit the ground running with Logic and the Euphonix controls surfaces.....

so as you stated above, I've got to figure out if I can keep this studio busy based on 1st "room" 2nd "outboard" and 3rd "platform" hmmmm....

John Sayers did the design on my rooms and for a basement home studio I'm pretty darn sure there isn't anyone who's even a close 2nd in my area (you can check out my rooms at MERIDIAN SOUND |:| Olathe, Kansas the website is not quite done yet but if you click on the headers you can see pics of all the rooms)

even though platform is the third consideration, it seems like I have to get it nailed down before put the dollars into outboard???? shoot, If was just me I might just keep the akai and spend the money on the outboard....
Old 11th February 2009 | Show parent
  #14
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
anybody want weigh in on the old style control 24 vs the Euphonix?

some of what is making me lean towards pro-tools is that is seems like the control 24 is a much more straightforward board... and having the bigger surface, extra pre's and monitor management seems like it would pull the whole thing together better?????
Old 11th February 2009 | Show parent
  #15
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🎧 10 years
Can't you just get a patchbay set up to split signals before they go A/D into PTLE and then to a monitor mixer which can deal with all your foldback issues.

I far prefer having a dedicated analogue monitor section.

This will save you a load of money. Just get a 003 and the CPTK and maybe add a euphonix conrtroller as well.
Old 11th February 2009 | Show parent
  #16
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by recall ➡️
Can't you just get a patchbay set up to split signals before they go A/D into PTLE and then to a monitor mixer which can deal with all your foldback issues.

I far prefer having a dedicated analogue monitor section.

This will save you a load of money. Just get a 003 and the CPTK and maybe add a euphonix conrtroller as well.

huh! never thought of that

I'm acronym challenged, what's a CPTK?
Old 11th February 2009 | Show parent
  #17
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Daedalus77's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
We are an HD shop, with Apogee conversion, like you envision (though AD/DA16X and Rosetta 800). We also have Logic, have used it for years, and love it for composition, film scoring, and electronic work. A few thoughts:

My advice is to go HD, even with the extra cost. No one should assert that having an HD rig will summarily provide you clients—especially without knowing the minutiae of your business plan, your locale, your market, and the niche(s) you plan to "work" to differentiate your shop from the others in your area. And, of course, if you're not a decent, capable, professional engineer (and businessman), all of this is moot.

But having an HD rig does, right or wrong, signify a certain level of professionalism, and, right or wrong, we've had clients attracted to our place because we have it, whereas other, mid-sized or "project" facilities in the area do not. A surprising number of artists desire to handle the production of their project in stages—drums at your place, bass at home, mixing somewhere else. The seamlessness with which all of that "real-world" work gets accomplished, with an HD rig, ought not be brushed aside. Workflow and efficiency (also known as keeping your clients happy) matters far more than that new mic pre, and HD will allow this in a way that Logic will not, I would assert.

Also, everything (almost) that has been wonderful in Logic is now available in PT8. More or less. I'm not sure how quickly the "conversion" will happen, but I'll bet that the stuff that has historically been done (or at least started) here in Logic (scoring, for example) will now get done in the PT realm. We'll see.

Another note: I would advise avoiding the used Control|24. You will tired quickly of the preamps and monitoring apparatus and be left with a sub-par control surface. There are lots of ProControl units available used—many quite cheaply. It's a workhorse of a control surface, despite its age, and you can get a better monitoring section with outboard.

If you have specific questions about the workflow of an HD rig in a busy, medium-sized project facility serving a variety of clients, feel free to PM me.

Best of luck.
Old 12th February 2009 | Show parent
  #18
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Daedalus

thanks for the helpful feedback, I will definitly PM you with some questions on workflow when I have some time to think them through!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daedalus77 ➡️

Another note: I would advise avoiding the used Control|24. You will tired quickly of the preamps and monitoring apparatus and be left with a sub-par control surface. There are lots of ProControl units available used—many quite cheaply. It's a workhorse of a control surface, despite its age, and you can get a better monitoring section with outboard.

I've never heard them, but more than a few folks say they pre's are really weak... the only thing I can see us using them for is utility pre's, but we need those so it's worth something even if they are only used till we can afford better.

also heard that the monitoring is weak.... aside from that I thought this was solid control surface??? I've got 12 faders now and I'm really wanting for more, so the eight fader pro-control doesn't get me very fired up....

Really the 24 faders and what I perceived to be a much more straightforward control surface than the euphonix was one of my main reasons for going PTHD.....hmmm there just isn't very many options unless we'd be willing to fork over the bucks for and ICON.... no way we can fit that in the budget... the new C24 is quite a bit more as well and not a huge improvement from what I've read in other threads.....

with that in mind is this thing still a bad move for us?
Old 12th February 2009 | Show parent
  #19
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T_R_S's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by WJurgens ➡️
huh! never thought of that

I'm acronym challenged, what's a CPTK?
CPTK
Turn LE into HD with this ....

Digidesign 128 Track Expansion for Protools LE - eBay (item 260350214486 end time Feb-19-09 22:26:17 PST)

Sorry for the self promotion but it' all there on one page ...
Old 12th February 2009 | Show parent
  #20
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Daedalus77's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
TRS makes a good point....

I was advocating getting the core ProControl unit and at least one fader pack. You are correct that once you begin working with a decent complement of faders (16 at a minimum), you'll never go back.

We got our ProControl unit and one fader pack for a steal—less than two grand. And mounted in a decent desk (ours is Argosy), it looks and works awesome.

I've worked on all of the Digi control surfaces, and the Control 24 leaves a lot to be desired. Sure, you can do basic routing and use the faders for automation and mixing, but it lacks decent control of plug-ins (perhaps the C|24 is better in that department). A ProControl isn't an ICON, by any stretch, but it's more intuitive and flexible than the Control24, in my book, by a good ways.

Good luck....
Old 12th February 2009
  #21
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
What I would do ( actually what I did), is get an Aurora 16 (~$3000) and a Lynx PCI-e (~$700). Throw in a Mackie Controller, and take all your saved money and buy preamps and mics. You already have LE for compatibility, not to mention that Logic deals fine with importing/exporting bounced audio files. In reality, I would think that the amount of business brought into your studio just by having TDM would be far less then by word of mouth from getting great sounds. Plus, if business is good, you can always incorporate the Aurora into a TDM system in the future.
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