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Drum Room -Why Blumlein figure 8's over omni?
Old 10th February 2009
  #1
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asagaai's Avatar
 
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Drum Room -Why Blumlein figure 8's over omni?

Been using figure 8 ribbons (Fathead 11's) in blumlein in room tracking drums.

What is the advantage of doing blumlein with figure 8's over using say a U47 in omni mode.

Better and wider representation side/side/front as compared to using a top line tube in omni??

Next session I am going to track 2 samples both way and compare after decoding-just wondering if anyone can put me outa my misery.

Cheers

GJ
Newcastle/OZ
Old 10th February 2009
  #2
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🎧 10 years
I definitely would not say that one technique is "better" than the other as a general rule.

It depends on -
the room, the mics, the placement, the drummer, the drums, so on so forth

Try them out and see which sounds better.
Old 10th February 2009
  #3
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msquared's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by asagaai ➑️
Next session I am going to track 2 samples both way and compare after decoding-just wondering if anyone can put me outa my misery
Yes, you can, by doing exactly that.

Seriously, it's two different micing methods for two different mix strategies. It's not quite apples and oranges, but maybe limes and oranges. One is for drinking at breakfast time, one is for doing shots of tequila that night at the bar. Both are great applications of citrus but neither is necessarily better without adequate context.
Old 10th February 2009
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asagaai ➑️
Next session I am going to track 2 samples both way and compare after decoding
Wait, what are you decoding?

You can use two bipolar for M/S, but if you are using them as Blumlein, no decoding.
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #5
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asagaai's Avatar
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smithcok ➑️
Wait, what are you decoding?

You can use two bipolar for M/S, but if you are using them as Blumlein, no decoding.

Using two figure 8's. Figure 8 that is the mid, placed on 1 track in the middle.

The Figure 8 side, pan one extreme left, pan a copy file extreme right phase flipped.

This is what I mean about coding.

To me- benefit of blumlein figure 8's is that perhaps the mikes are working optimally in their figure 8 pattern- therefore giving max depth.

Whereas a tube LDC in omni may not be truly getting a full 360 textured coverage.

(this all leaves aside the ribbon large tube LDC sonic differences-only interested in the patterns and blumlein versus single high quality LDC).

GJ
Newcastle/OZ
Old 10th February 2009
  #6
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McPhaul's Avatar
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asagaai ➑️
Been using figure 8 ribbons (Fathead 11's) in blumlein in room tracking drums.

What is the advantage of doing blumlein with figure 8's over using say a U47 in omni mode.

Better and wider representation side/side/front as compared to using a top line tube in omni??

Next session I am going to track 2 samples both way and compare after decoding-just wondering if anyone can put me outa my misery.

Cheers

GJ
Newcastle/OZ
Not sure that I fully understand your question, sorry if I didn't.

You asked: Better and wider representation side/side/front as compared to using a top line tube in omni??

Blumlein is a stereo method where a single omni mic is of course mono. So to answer this question - Yes. The stereo image is much wider than the mono.

A single mic in omni may give you a great sound but it will never give you a stereo image.

Also not sure what you're decoding. Are you thinking Mid-Side or Blumlein?

Will
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #7
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McPhaul's Avatar
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asagaai ➑️
Using two figure 8's. Figure 8 that is the mid, placed on 1 track in the middle.

The Figure 8 side, pan one extreme left, pan a copy file extreme right phase flipped.

This is what I mean about coding.

To me- benefit of blumlein figure 8's is that perhaps the mikes are working optimally in their figure 8 pattern- therefore giving max depth.

Whereas a tube LDC in omni may not be truly getting a full 360 textured coverage.

(this all leaves aside the ribbon large tube LDC sonic differences-only interested in the patterns and blumlein versus single high quality LDC).

GJ
Newcastle/OZ

You are describing Mid-Side decoding here not blumlein. In blumlein you would use both fig-8 mics at 90 degree to each other with neither of them pointed straight at the source. Pan one right, one left, and you have a stereo image. No copying of a file or phase reversal needed.

In M-S you normally use 1 fig-8 and 1 cardioid. Fig 8 sideways to the source and the card pointed at it. With this you do duplicate a track and flip it's phase and use the card source to adjust the width of the stereo image.

Either of these will give a good stereo image. Either may work better for a given appliation.

Will
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #8
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by McPhaul ➑️
In M-S you normally use 1 fig-8 and 1 cardioid. Fig 8 sideways to the source and the card pointed at it. With this you do duplicate a track and flip it's phase and use the card source to adjust the width of the stereo image.
It's perfectly fine to use any polar pattern for the mid-signal. So you can transform a blumlein setup into a MS-setup by simply rotating by 45 degrees. Of course you then have to do the ms-matrix to get your stereo signal. I've also often used omnis (pressure microphone) for the mid-signal because of their excellent low-frequency response. Btw, when working with MS, make sure that you check your stereo signal on a phase scope/correlation meter and listen to the mono sum, because to much side-signal can get nasty when listened to in mono.

I agree with everything else you mentioned concerning the initial question.
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #9
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🎧 10 years
What's wrong with a pair of cardioids in his case? If he wants someone to put him out of his "misery", as he says, with regard to Omni's vs. fig-8's, could it be that his misery is that he's simply getting too much room in this case, and he needs a li'l more focused sound?

Just wondering.
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #10
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asagaai's Avatar
 
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Thanks for the replies guys - very helpful to me.

So- blumlein or M/S gives a wide stereo representation, but may be more phasing or uneven stereo width issues.

Using a single LDC omni- a focused sound in centre stage with some depth or room, but does not add to width given not stereo.

Would there using a M/S setup, be a problem using a figure 8 for the M mike?

Cheers

GJ
Newcastle/OZ
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #11
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Nu-tra's Avatar
I do Blumlein pair and I also throw in a mono mic as well that way I have a choice later.
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #12
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McPhaul's Avatar
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by julian.david ➑️
It's perfectly fine to use any polar pattern for the mid-signal. So you can transform a blumlein setup into a MS-setup by simply rotating by 45 degrees. Of course you then have to do the ms-matrix to get your stereo signal. I've also often used omnis (pressure microphone) for the mid-signal because of their excellent low-frequency response. Btw, when working with MS, make sure that you check your stereo signal on a phase scope/correlation meter and listen to the mono sum, because to much side-signal can get nasty when listened to in mono.

I agree with everything else you mentioned concerning the initial question.
I agree about the Mid mic being able to be other than card, but how does the side mic get phasy when summed to mono? It is the exact signal 180 degrees out of phase and when summed to mono should cancel itself completly?

The thing that makes M-S good is that it colapses to only the Mid mic in mono and doesn't have the phase issues.

At least that is my understanding and experiance.

Will
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #13
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julian.david's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by McPhaul ➑️
I agree about the Mid mic being able to be other than card, but how does the side mic get phasy when summed to mono? It is the exact signal 180 degrees out of phase and when summed to mono should cancel itself completly?

The thing that makes M-S good is that it colapses to only the Mid mic in mono and doesn't have the phase issues.

At least that is my understanding and experiance.
I'm sorry, you are absolutely right! I don't know what I was confusing last night, but it's full mono compatibility at all time is of course one of the great features of the MS technique. However, when reducing the mid component of the MS stereo mix too much, the stereo image will become over-wide (out of phase) which can be quite disturbing for some people (including me). Sorry again, for my mistake.
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