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Avalon 737 vs great river
Old 9th February 2009
  #1
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shadyru's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Avalon 737 vs great river

Avalon 737 gets ripped apart on here but seen it's been used on so many hit records including big acts such as nickelback and disturbed for vox.

My question is the great river mp gets so much praise but have any major recordings used this on vocals??
Old 12th February 2009
  #2
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
Considering the very high price of the Great River pres, they must be used in at least couple of number ONE hits -if not, then why such high price?
Old 12th February 2009
  #3
70% Coffee, 30% Beer
 
Doc Mixwell's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyru ➑️
Avalon 737 gets ripped apart on here but seen it's been used on so many hit records including big acts such as nickelback and disturbed for vox.

My question is the great river mp gets so much praise but have any major recordings used this on vocals??
Yea, Professional Engineers and Professional Artists are using Great River. But who cares? You're not them, and they're not you?? Only you can define what is awesome and what is garbage. If Nickel Sack and Discord used the 737, big deal. What does that tell you about what will work for you? My advice would be to try these products first hand to see if you like them. It doesn't get any simpler than that.
Old 12th February 2009 | Show parent
  #4
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mdjice's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
The Avalon is perfectly fine!! I use one almost everyday even though I have others, NEve, Pacifica, UA etc..
Old 4th March 2009
  #5
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Ernest Buckley's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyru ➑️
Avalon 737 gets ripped apart on here but seen it's been used on so many hit records including big acts such as nickelback and disturbed for vox.

My question is the great river mp gets so much praise but have any major recordings used this on vocals??
Roc Mixwell makes excellent points. It doesn`t matter who uses them because each voice blends differently with each pre. I own two 737s, love them but are they good for everything? Nope. They`re excellent on my voice and on acoustic guitar and bass DI which is what I use them for primarily. Other than that, there are many other pres to turn to depending on what you`re doing. Get your hands on as many pres as you can and just because something is cheap, doesn`t mean its crap. If it gives you the sound you want, no ones opinion should matter.

Peace,
EB
Old 4th March 2009
  #6
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
It tells me that people are often chasing their own tails when it come to preamps. If your preamp is good enough, it probably is good enough.
Old 4th March 2009 | Show parent
  #7
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dan p's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I have both and both sound great!I would listen to some sound examples floating around GS somewhere to see which one you like.
I tend to use my mp2nv on 2 buss of my console and trk with 737 and mpc 100a but i have trked with the mp and its worth having imo.



Dan P
Old 4th March 2009 | Show parent
  #8
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AllAboutTone's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
GR is great, leave the compressor and eq on off mode and the 737 is ok.
Old 5th March 2009 | Show parent
  #9
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RKrizman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I think the 737 is cleaner and more neutral sounding than the GR. Mine live on my Yamaha C7, whereas the GR lives on electric guitars.

-R
Old 5th March 2009 | Show parent
  #10
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Eganmedia's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RKrizman ➑️
I think the 737 is cleaner and more neutral sounding than the GR. Mine live on my Yamaha C7, whereas the GR lives on electric guitars.

-R

I have the exact opposite opinion. I use my 737s for electric guitars and tend to use my Great River on my C7.

I like both. I like the 737 EQ section and HPF a lot. I like the stepped pots on the GR. Why anyone would hold up a Nickelback record as an indicator of the sound of any piece of gear (aside from maybe Pro Tools and and the AAC encoder used for posting the songs to itunes) is beyond me.
Old 5th March 2009 | Show parent
  #11
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Ernest Buckley's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eganmedia ➑️
I have the exact opposite opinion. I use my 737s for electric guitars and tend to use my Great River on my C7.

I like both. I like the 737 EQ section and HPF a lot. I like the stepped pots on the GR. Why anyone would hold up a Nickelback record as an indicator of the sound of any piece of gear (aside from maybe Pro Tools and and the AAC encoder used for posting the songs to itunes) is beyond me.
Think about it... Nickelback sells 10 million records and they use Avalon 737s... it must have something to do with it. At least thats the mentality for some. Whatever the case... no mic pre is better than another. It all comes down to what you`re looking for. Sort of like spices. Salt and pepper always seem to work. Sort of like an SM58 and a Mackie pre...
Old 5th March 2009 | Show parent
  #12
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Wes Kuhnley's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TankT34 ➑️
...if not, then why such high price?
Cause Dan's gotta pay me the big bucks to give each unit that special touch...
Old 5th March 2009 | Show parent
  #13
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Considering the very high price of the Great River pres, they must be used in at least couple of number ONE hits -if not, then why such high price?
Perhaps because they're not inexpensive to build?

Quote:
The GR I sold because it has the gain and output gain and I do not like having to decide where to set multiple gains.
Funny, that's one of the things I like most about it...

Quote:
I tend to use my mp2nv on 2 buss of my console

Dan P


Thats got to be goofing up your mix.
Why would you assume that? What if it's adding just the character he's looking for?
Old 5th March 2009 | Show parent
  #14
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peacock ➑️
The GR I sold because it has the gain and output gain and I do not like having to decide where to set multiple gains.
This feature is valuable to me. You can tailor the pre to match the mic/source. I think it works very well in this regard.

But if you like one gain knob, then more power to you!
Old 5th March 2009 | Show parent
  #15
70% Coffee, 30% Beer
 
Doc Mixwell's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peacock ➑️
The problem with tracking this way is the effect of the gain cannot be undone. Ie you have tracked the gtrs and they have a nice thick tone but iyou realize at mix they need less iron to fit the mix. You are sunk because you added to much gain.
Why not just set the preamp for the right amount of gain needed in the first place? There's no Great River Midget inside the rack telling you to add more distortion and saturation. The beautiful part of tracking; is making choices/decisions and living with those choices/decisions for a life time.
Old 5th March 2009 | Show parent
  #16
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dan p's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell ➑️
Why not just set the preamp for the right amount of gain needed in the first place? There's no Great River Midget inside the rack telling you to add more distortion and saturation. The beautiful part of tracking; is making choices/decisions and living with those choices/decisions for a life time.
This is what i call getting it right the first time.Make a choice and go for it.
Having a few class a preamps certainly makes this decision easier!


Dan P
Old 5th March 2009 | Show parent
  #17
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Doc Mixwell's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peacock ➑️
Getting it right the 1st time using multiple gain stages and differing pres (well good luck)
Ok, now I'm lost. Multiple gain stages on a preamp is just that, the possibility to vary the tone of the microphone, if you find that useful. If you don't, that's fine, but input/output ratio does not "get in the way" unless the operator chooses as such.

I get what you mean; but I don't see how any of this is in the way of whatever application is in front of you. The MAN makes the Records, not the Input and Output gain controls on a preamp. I think knowing a little about the gain staging of these amplifiers and what they do, with regard to this concern, is crucial to passing the bar exam.
Old 5th March 2009 | Show parent
  #18
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engmix's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peacock ➑️
Getting it right the 1st time using multiple gain stages and differing pres (well good luck)
it's not about luck mate, it's about skill, and knowing what you like.

Quote:
The GR I sold because it has the gain and output gain and I do not like having to decide where to set multiple gains.


Quote:
Great River Midget inside the rack telling you to add more distortion and saturation.
i want a one of those great river midget's for my 500nv motherf#%ker!!
Old 5th March 2009 | Show parent
  #19
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Doc Mixwell's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peacock ➑️
We just have to respectfully disagree. I think the more you know about gain stages the more you will do to avoid them. The less gain stages the clearer and more open the sound.

For example, thats why placing a preamp on the mix buss is odd to me. The gain stages should be avoided to a greater degree the further in the recording you travel IMO. Preferably, the cleaner you track the more open the sound will become.
I think we are crossing lines in the discussion, I was really only talking about the topology of the circuit more than the ratio of input and output pots, or lack of the input and output control on an amplifier. There is still an input stage and an output stage in these amplifier's regardless if it lets you control them via a pot.

So, Perhaps we should leave it as; knowing what all of your amplifiers do [the ones in your microphones included] will be the way of the warrior. Again I totally understand your concerns here, but you must understand that not everyone will define "clean" and "open" the same way. I can tell you that there are many Righteous preamplifier's that make me smile when I use them as make up for my passive summing rail, as well as here there and everywhere.
Old 5th March 2009 | Show parent
  #20
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engmix's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peacock ➑️
Obviously thats true. Thats why after tracking and recording since 1981 I have learned that avoiding multiple gain stages results in a better recording for me.

I know what I like. Sticking with simplicity and avoiding the paradox of choice in recording is a superior and way more enjoyable way do this stuff for me.
not to get into a pissing contest, but i've been tracking since 85. so we are of the same generation here.

you seem to come from the philosophy that cleaner and clearer is always better, which is to each his own. i believe both have their place in the process together. i never say never, especially when it comes to a field that is based more on creativity verses science. i personally don't see the paradox of choice as you put it. but hey, if that's they way you like, more power to ya. but seriously, you have never put up a source through a mic pre and thought "hmmmm to clean, not enough mojo, time to crank the gain?"

i don't disagree with the philosophy that much can be tweaked during mix. and in the wrong hands, over processed tracks during recording can lead to a disaster. it's just that your process comes off as a bit safe. again, what ever works for you.
Old 5th March 2009 | Show parent
  #21
Gear Guru
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
We just have to respectfully disagree. I think the more you know about gain stages the more you will do to avoid them. The less gain stages the clearer and more open the sound.
This assumes you want things to be clearer. I mean, by that argument, you could say that no amp distortion should be used during tracking either and only added after the fact. Plenty of folks do that these days of course, using amp sims or re-amping, but bazzillions of great records weren't done that way.

But, at some point, you have to know what you want and record that. And, personally, I don't think it's very hard at all to undo some of the effects of driving the GR input hard. In some ways, I think that makes it actually easier to get a good mix, because the extra harmonic distortion creates a thicker sound that can actually be high passed up higher and not become thin, so that it sounds deeper than it really is.

I'm just recording myself, so I don't have the time/cost restrictions, but I'm really trying to get to the point where I can record as close to what is needed. I've not gotten there yet, but I keep striving in that direction. Ultimately I'd like to have as little processing as possible. Recording it the way it should sound, and that includes lots of harmonic distortion a lot of the time in rock, is ultimately the 'cleanest' approach possible.
Old 5th March 2009 | Show parent
  #22
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdjice ➑️
The Avalon is perfectly fine!! I use one almost everyday even though I have others, NEve, Pacifica, UA etc..
yeah i use mine every day as well...its very versatile as well..the comp and eq are geat for use as insert..well worth the loot.
Old 6th March 2009 | Show parent
  #23
Gear Guru
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Thats the exact opposite of my point. Those who reamp and use sims are really destroying the sound. If you want a good gtr distortion record a good distorted amp with a clear pre preserving the sound of the amp. By doing this even less work will be needed at mix.
But, you are kind of assuming that people who are smart enough to get a good guitar sound are too dumb to realize when pushing the input on the pre-amp improves it vs. degrades it, and that doing so always degrades it, which isn't the case.
Old 6th March 2009 | Show parent
  #24
Gear Guru
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
But it's already distorted to begin with, and the sound of the pre-amp is often an enhancement of the sound, just as the sound of the compressor or the EQ often is. All it takes is a twist of the know to see. If it sounds better that way, then it sounds better. If it doesn't, twist it back.

And you have to assume that a pre-amp like the GR doesn't add all that expense to have those nice transformers for nothing. They are there because a lot of people like the effect and are willing to pay for them. Beyond the extra harmonic thickening, it also provides a nice semi-compression effect that's quite nice.
Old 6th March 2009 | Show parent
  #25
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2Loud's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
never thought gear sells albums...really?

besides i do not consider option to adjust input / output as something "unsafe" and uncomfortable, but understand of course, its matter of choice...

i think you can easily hear what is being "pushed to color" and what is being kept cleaner with more "original" sound thrown at input,..especially with Great River, only two knobs..one for each ear

anyway i think 737 for vocals works well as a combo with certain mics, and with certain music styles or vocalists..thats why some love it to death..

but it doesnt make sales. "there has to be something about it"...no i dont think there really is, its always about the skills i think, not a gear..however some combinations of certain gear and people working with it can result in great sounding record, but it doesnt have anything common with a "sales"..


all the best
brgds
Old 6th March 2009 | Show parent
  #26
Gear Guru
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
You'd do it if it sounded better, and often it does. Why would any one compress a perfectly good signal? Or EQ one? Because it improves it in some way.
Old 6th March 2009 | Show parent
  #27
70% Coffee, 30% Beer
 
Doc Mixwell's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
This thread title says;

Great River VERSUS Avalon 737

As much as it pains me to say; Lets get back to that shall we?
Old 6th March 2009 | Show parent
  #28
Gear Nut
 
Rondel's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Comparing 2 high quality pres is a waste of time.

-Isn't this the point of Gearslutz? I love to waste time then...


Quote:
Originally Posted by AllAboutTone ➑️
GR is great, leave the compressor and eq on off mode and the 737 is ok.
I never used a GR, sorry I can't compare. But I use my 737 every day and really love the comp for vocals and EQ for everything. The preamp is verry clean, and not suitable for everything. When I want a more mid-tone (vocals/el guitars), I use my Brick to the line in of the 737. I heard from Avalon the EQ is the same as the AD-2055 (!), and I have the babyface-mod on the comp for a faster attack time. Now with the mod, the comp is wonderful on vocals and always record with EQ and comp on. Sometimes with extreme settings.
(fast attack time and release, and high cut on the eq like -6db or more from 5k-10k)

I believe you have to record the sound you want, and when you go mixing and push the faders up, you 're 90% there. Fix it in the mix doesn't work for me.

One exception on this; when I record mobile (live), I prefer prΓ©'s with only one gain knob, and no hpf. Cause you can't undo them indeed. This is the reason I still haven't bought a asp-008...
Old 6th March 2009 | Show parent
  #29
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
I do believe that the sooner in the chain (ie instrument followed by mic) you add character yields the best results. I want the sound to be captured naturally and non distorted.
Those two statements kind of contradict each other, don't they? When you're adding "character" you're really adding distortion of some sort.

Unless you're doing only purist-type acoustic recording...no microphones right up on the guitar amp, no microphones an inch or two away from any drum, no microphone an inch or two away from any source...you're not capturing sound "naturally".

Quote:
If you want a good gtr distortion record a good distorted amp with a clear pre preserving the sound of the amp. By doing this even less work will be needed at mix.
I don't disagree for the most part, except I would say that if you know the tone you want, and you have a preamp that will take it a step beyond preserving the sound of the amp and actually enhance it...that will make it even easier to mix down. I'd also take it a step further and say that that could apply to any source, not just already-distorted guitar amps.

Quote:
The point is to record the voice or instrument in its natural state matching the source with the appropriate mic and placement and if possible avoid all distortion gear (ie compression, eq, colored pres, reverb etc).
Again, that may be the point for the style of music you do, but again, aside from certain styles of acoustic music recording, most of the recording done these days is not about capturing the source in its "natural" state. There's nothing natural about putting a microphone in a kick drum, or a microphone centimeters away from the grille of a guitar amp, or microphone two inches away from a singer's mouth. Oftentimes a compressor, EQ, or colored preamp is just what is needed to get the sound that is desired.

Quote:
To me distorting a perfectly good sound with multiple gain stages makes no sense.
Well, sure, if a sound is "perfectly good" then there's no need to distort it at all. But if it's not "perfectly good" and multiple gain stages make it better, then it makes a lot of sense to use them.

Quote:
We all know that performance, vocal quality, instrument quality, mic selection, mic placement and avoiding multiple gain stages makes way more of a difference than which high quality pre you use.
You had me until the "avoiding multiple gain stages" part, because many of us do just the opposite and use multiple gain stages to get the sound that we want.
Old 6th March 2009 | Show parent
  #30
Here for the gear
 
Max Gain's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
You guys are makin' my head hurt. Maybe you should discuss who's art is better-- Michaelangelo(sp?) or Ansel Adams. Photos and paintings can be breathtaking or SUCK!! A good engineer on an entry level rig will kick a tone deaf wanna be's butt EVERY time and the better the gear gets the better and worse thierrespective results will be!!!!
πŸ“ Reply

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